Work in India?

[aggockel50321]

Anyone read this?

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P62115.asp

Note the architecture column.

[bclarch]

This will only happen if we stand idly by and let it happen. Most architectural practice laws require that an architect only seal drawings that have been prepared under his or her "direct supervision and control". It would be hard to argue that someone in India is working under the direct supervision and control of someone in the states. That said, it obviously does happen. Our responsibility then is twofold: 1. Don't engage in the practice of shopping the drawings out if you are in a position to make the decision. 2. If you know of someone engaging in this practice then report them to the licensing board for disciplinary action. Despite my line-in-the-sand, Don Quixote-like stance I do think that the economics of the situation will overwhelm the opposition and this will become the unfortunate reality. Doesn't mean that we can't go down fighting. That's my gloom and doom rant for the day. Putting away the soapbox.

[gregcashen]

Keep in mind also that as with any very objective reporting from MSN (that is sarcasm you hear) this report didn't mention how many new jobs will be created between now and then, nor what "Architecture" means. I suspect there is a lot of "design" that will get shipped overseas, but true architecture? I don't see many people saying,

"Hmmm. I need a new house designed for the land I bought up in Montana, but I just can't afford to pay so much for an Architect. I know, I can get some guy from India to design me a house...I mean, despite the fact that I'll never meet him, he's from an entirely different culture, I don't have any idea what his values are and he's never seen the land, but I'll save a couple thousand bucks.!"

I would want to know the rest of the story before I took something like this seriously. Maybe they are referring to the people that only do architectural presentations...renderings, etc. There are a lot of those over there already. I just don't see how it would work to have an Indian "Architect". The stamp thing, for one, would be big hurdle.

I suspect it's largely a non-issue.

Now, the technology thing is more of a concern. What if Autodesk decides to farm out the development of Revit to India? That would be a disaster. :cry:

[PeterJ]

What if Autodesk decides to farm out the development of Revit to India? That would be a disaster. :cry:

Why? It is already some 4,000 miles from my office to where it gets developed by people who use different building codes and a base 12 system of measurement. If the skills are there it doesn't matter too much where it gets developed, surely. Ask Beegee, it must be 15,000 miles from his office to Waltham or wherever they are.

[Henry D]

I have already seen this happen. The Licensed Architect in the U.S. subs out work to low wage draftsmen in foreign countries. The US Architect is still supervising the project, but he's able to cut his overhead by not having to pay American wages. The internet makes it just as easy to work with an office in Trinidad or New Delhi as with an office in Chicago.

[beegee]

Why? It is already some 4,000 miles from my office to where it gets developed by people who use different building codes and a base 12 system of measurement. If the skills are there it doesn't matter too much where it gets developed, surely. Ask Beegee, it must be 15,000 miles from his office to Waltham or wherever they are.

Waltham's just a front. The code is written by lean mean Moscow hackers.

[Simon.Whitbread]

When talking about 'architecture' are they referring to the entire building/services envelope?
Before leaving the UK last year, I was working for a building services consultant. With huge workloads and either good CAD staff being unavailable or too expensive, the company started using a CAD Bureau in Malaysia.

Hey, we would scan the markups, email them and then receive the DWG's a couple of days later.

YES it annoyed me. YES its taking jobs away from your workers. But at the end of the day, your employer WILL find alternatives to keep him viable in the marketplace.

Oh, another thing, the CHARGEOUT cost of a CAD Draughter in the UK varies between 20 and 30 GBPounds per hour with the Draughter being paid around 12 to 18 per hour.
Malaysian CAD Bureau charges 5 GB Pounds per hour! Even if the checking took longer, the employer could only see all those extra pounds in his pocket. Who can blame him - lots are in it only for the money.

Crikey! I've not ranted like this for some time!
Soapbox put away, back to work!

[aggockel50321]

The code is written by lean mean Moscow hackers.

I remember a thread, either in a CAD publication, newspaper, or newsgroup discussing that this was in fact the case for many software developers shortly after the breakup of the former Soviet Union.

[GS Fulton]

I'm told there is an architect here in the Phoenix Area that is having his drafting work done offshore in Hong Kong or some such place. I have mixed feelings about it. I really hate to see it happening but at the same time, I watch my bottom line just like every body else. I have used local drafting services for that sort of work occasionally and can imagine it wouldn't be much different if they're up the street or around the world.

George F

[beegee]

The code is written by lean mean Moscow hackers.

I remember a thread, either in a CAD publication, newspaper, or newsgroup discussing that this was in fact the case for many software developers shortly after the breakup of the former Soviet Union.

Forum moderators never lie.

[gregcashen]

I have already seen this happen. The Licensed Architect in the U.S. subs out work to low wage draftsmen in foreign countries. The US Architect is still supervising the project, but he's able to cut his overhead by not having to pay American wages. The internet makes it just as easy to work with an office in Trinidad or New Delhi as with an office in Chicago.

I certainly have seen this and have even considered using some of the offshore outsourced draftsman. In the area that I work, there are not a lot of good drafstman, so the quality of some of our hires has been pretty low. If there was a significant cost benefit to it, I could see shipping drafting work to India and making the final tweaks myself.

But I don't consider this architecture any more than I would say that the guy that fixed my fender last week is an auto manufacturer.

[Steve_Stafford]

All the more incentive to get that license now.

[bclarch]

I'm told there is an architect here in the Phoenix Area that is having his drafting work done offshore in Hong Kong or some such place. I have mixed feelings about it. I really hate to see it happening but at the same time, I watch my bottom line just like every body else. I have used local drafting services for that sort of work occasionally and can imagine it wouldn't be much different if they're up the street or around the world.

George F

What most people don't see is the hidden costs to the economy that result from this practice. 1. When jobs move overseas local wage earners lose their jobs. Unemployed people don't have money to spend which has a negative impact on the local / national economy. 2. Having fewer wage earners affects tax revenue. Public services suffer because there is less tax money for police, fire protection, roads, etc. etc. etc. etc.. 3. Unemployed workers will also apply for unemployment compensation and / or end up on welfare. This creates a drain on public funds at the same time that revenue is dropping due to lower tax revenue. A double whammy so to speak.

Since every company has the right to make these decisions based on their own economic needs (and the political and ethical views of the decision makers) I don't see any easy answer. Perhaps we should adopt the mantra of the recycling movement, "Think globally, act locally".

[PeterJ]

Interesting point that you make Robert.

The people that have targeted me in the past as a mark for this type of service have offered two benefits to using global outsourcing of professional skills. Firstly, there is the obvious cost benefit, secondly there is the time benefit. The argument goes that with a global clock cycle there is something for comment on your desk at 6:00 am when you waltz in straight from the racketball courts - or however it works in your office - you can deal with them in that working day and return them to the drafters at the beginning of their next working cycle, this removes some pressure from you and makes better use of their time possibly.

All this I feel stumbles on the ability of aomeone to emulate a set of building regulations with which they are not familiar on a day to day basis. That is something I wouldn't trust. All the codes seek to protect life and prolong building fabric survival in one form or another, but the the actual resolution is bound to differ substantially enough from nation to nation and region to region to make it unworkable.

Martin P, of this parish, does a little work for me on a contract basis and the quality of his output is very high indeed, however he is some 500 miles away and in a different administrative zone/country, while still part of the United Kingdom, but in that short distance there is enough variation in technical language and the regulations to have caused one or two minor hiccoughs - all caught in the hiccough filter. Based on that experience I would not see myself willing to pass work out to someone in France/Italy/India/US and I can't see who would, after all it is the annotation which makes up the bulk of a working drawing's time ususally.

[bclarch]

I know what you mean Peter. In the past we have tried hiring some local independant CAD drafters without success. We experienced any number of problems with quality, deadlines, layer compatibility (everyone wants to use the system that they are familiar with), attention to detail, etc. It just made us too nervous. Even though we regularly checked the drawings we were always worried about missing the one error that would come back to bite us. The drafters that we tried did not seem to understand that what they did on one drawing might have implecations throughout the project and later in the real world. (Revit parametrics be praised.) The aggravation and potential liability haven't been worth it. All-in-all we are still open to the option but would need to be able to thoroughly vet any candidates.

[Vincent Valentijn]

I don't see that happen myself..
Eventhough I'm in CAD biss right now I'm thinking about starting my own one-man-architectural-office within the coming 3 years (while I can still get an artfund to help me along! hehe) My idea.. and of many other architects, is to only get technical and drafting assistance at the point one of my designs is to be built (and in some cases to set up a 'study' group for an architectural issue) .. this combines nicely with my art/philosophical work I think... hope! (keep your fingers crossed for me guys.. )
But I don't see how I could rent an Indian engineering studio to work with since.. there's a LOT of communication involved which must (at least partially) be face-to-face and hands-on.. we're still talking about craftsmanship here, right? Maybe it's only an issue for those 'pseudo architects' that make so called 'catalog architecture' and stuff like that. I don't even consider that to be architecture, it's just building - industry...
:twisted: That is a BEEEEP thing anyway, besides from the fact in which country it is produced in?

[MikeJarosz]

What if Autodesk decides to farm out the development of Revit to India? That would be a disaster. :cry:

My firm (a very large one - you know who we are) wrote a CAD system in house. It was a very good system, but it was VAX based and had to be ported to newer equipment. Eventually we teamed up with IBM. They outsourced the port to TATA Industries in India. It died shortly thereafter.
And it was Buggy!!!

I too have heard the Moscow rumors. I met the head of REVIT in the early days and people were saying he was a Russian emigre. But hey! so what! Unless of course there's a backdoor in the software.

[funkman]

received on email :lol: