Sharing the *Model*?

[Dave Jones]

I know that there are a lot of Architects that frequent this forum so I'd like to ask for some input to get opinions from "the other side". I am a self employed curtain wall detailer that works for commercial glazing firms. I have recently started to make the transition from AutoCAD to Revit and am presently working on my first project in Revit and it's going along nicely. My question is this: why is it that Architects will not share the Revit model with anyone? I'm working on a hospital building that is constructed of poured in place concrete shear panels, stucco exterior finish over said shear panels or steel stud framing, concrete floors, and a metal roof over steel joist framing. All of these building entities have been modeled by the Architect (or Structural Engineer) and exist because I'm looking at hard copy drawings of them and the plot stamp has the file name ending in .rvt. I have requested, through my customer, a copy of the model and have been turned down without explanation. Does it seem strange to anyone but me that all of these building components would have to be recreated by any and all subcontractors and suppliers that need the components to "install" their product?

When I started down this BIM path I was lead to believe that the *model* was created for the good of all project team members (and that includes me). What good is the model doing anyone if there is no collaboration, no checking by those that know the specifics of their trade intimately, no trusting that those on the team will accurately portray their part of the model? Seems like just another CAD program to me, used to output documents to hard copy. As a matter of fact this harkens back some years ago when Architects would, under no circumstances, share AutoCAD .dwg files of their docs. That's changed radically. Is it just a matter of time before Revit docs will be shared?

I'd enjoy some thoughts from your perspective,

[cliff collins]

It is a Contractual matter.

The Owner, Architect and GC all enter into Contracts, which may or may not have specific
language concerning BIM, and esp. sharing of BIM.

IPD ( Integrated Project Delivery ) is a new concept which breaks down the traditional Design/Bid/Build agreements and brings all team members on board early. There are special new AIA Contracts just for IPD.

It sounds like you are in a BIM project, but not in a collaborative Contractual setup like IPD.

Ask the GC if he knows how the Contracts are setup and if there is any specific language
regarding BIM. His answer will give real clues to how the project has been set up contractually, and his understanding of BIM and how it is to be used on this job.

You are correct that BIM lends itself to a new delivery method where all team members share the BIM for pre-concept phase thru post construction--it just doesn't always work out that way in real-world contract negotiations--yet. This is a rapidly changing environment.

Just keep asking for the BIM, perhaps call the GC and see if he can ask the Arch.--and tell them WHY you would like to share in the BIM.

cheers

[patricks]

I think one of the issues might be that their model is full of custom-made families and other things that they don't want to go around sharing with everybody. I can understand this as family creation takes time, and there are even places that sell custom Revit families for purchase. If their model contains purchased families, I wouldn't want to share it, either.

Perhaps you could try asking for a 3D DWF file made from the Revit model? I really don't know anything about what they kind of workflow would entail, but at least it's a start. If nothing else, you could at least ask them for CAD exports of the elevations showing the curtain walls.

[Dave Jones]

It is a Contractual matter.

The Owner, Architect and GC all enter into Contracts, which may or may not have specific
language concerning BIM, and esp. sharing of BIM.

IPD ( Integrated Project Delivery ) is a new concept which breaks down the traditional Design/Bid/Build agreements and brings all team members on board early. There are special new AIA Contracts just for IPD.

It sounds like you are in a BIM project, but not in a collaborative Contractual setup like IPD.

Ask the GC if he knows how the Contracts are setup and if there is any specific language
regarding BIM. His answer will give real clues to how the project has been set up contractually, and his understanding of BIM and how it is to be used on this job.

You are correct that BIM lends itself to a new delivery method where all team members share the BIM for pre-concept phase thru post construction--it just doesn't always work out that way in real-world contract negotiations--yet. This is a rapidly changing environment.

Just keep asking for the BIM, perhaps call the GC and see if he can ask the Arch.--and tell them WHY you would like to share in the BIM.

cheers

thanks for the enlightening information Cliff. I will indeed ask these questions. One of the things that I'm going to do in the future is present my proposals with 2 options: 1) the price for the work if I can get the Revit model and 2) the price +30% (or whatever) if I can't. Historically once Owners find out that there is a cost factor for a one way or the other decision the lesser price has some weight to it. Especially if they are getting from a lot of subcontractors. Thanks again!

[Dave Jones]

I think one of the issues might be that their model is full of custom-made families and other things that they don't want to go around sharing with everybody. I can understand this as family creation takes time, and there are even places that sell custom Revit families for purchase. If their model contains purchased families, I wouldn't want to share it, either.

Perhaps you could try asking for a 3D DWF file made from the Revit model? I really don't know anything about what they kind of workflow would entail, but at least it's a start. If nothing else, you could at least ask them for CAD exports of the elevations showing the curtain walls.

from my perspective it's like if I'm modeling door handles. Why should I have to model all of the door frames and doors that receive the door handles when someone has already done it. I fully understand the value of families but this is no different than blocks or dynamic blocks in Acad files. Architects have spent the same amount of time to create that content and yet share those drawings freely these days. I don't need any of the families created by Architects for two reasons, one because they don't relate to my work, and two because I don't trust anyone's family creation other than my own.

I just need the holes in the buildings that will have curtain walls installed in them. And I need them in .rvt. DWF isn't any more use to me than the hard copy dwgs that are sitting here.

thanks for the input!

[cliff collins]

D,

Glad to help. In IPD, we would encourage the GC to bring in subs such as yourself very early in the conceptual design phase, and actually give input into the design process--before any modeling is done. We might even ask you to come up with 3 options for the curtainwall design, model them in Revit, and participate in the outcome! Wow! What a concept. Seems far-fetched, but it is already happening. Do a quick Google search on Intergrated Project Deivery and BIM.

Your comment on price is exactly why there's a shift toward IPD / BIM collaboration
which is hopefully becoming the norm in the near future.

cheers

[Scott D Davis]

I just need the holes in the buildings that will have curtain walls installed in them. And I need them in .rvt.

I would ask for just that then. Instead of asking for the whole model, tell them specifically what you need: Walls and openings where the curtain walls exist. They can pretty easily save out an RVT file with just those elements that you can use.

[Dave Jones]

I would ask for just that then. Instead of asking for the whole model, tell them specifically what you need: Walls and openings where the curtain walls exist. They can pretty easily save out an RVT file with just those elements that you can use.

great idea! I've been generally asking for the "model" while my need is not so great. I'll try the only this part direction and see what I can get.

[twiceroadsfool]

If if they really want to be all bent out of shape about "letting the model out of their office," then tell them to Group the walls and openings, and save the group out. itll give them a blank file, with just that stuff, and none of their precious office settings that they think are so valuable.

Having said that, if we were collaborating, we would hand it over. We do it all the time.

[Dave Jones]

If if they really want to be all bent out of shape about "letting the model out of their office," then tell them to Group the walls and openings, and save the group out. itll give them a blank file, with just that stuff, and none of their precious office settings that they think are so valuable.

Having said that, if we were collaborating, we would hand it over. We do it all the time.

Maybe we will some day. I'd look forward to it! I've put in a third request with the qualification that I need only the walls and floors where our curtain walls occur. I'm assuming that they would know how to do that. We'll see what the result is...

[cliff collins]

Again,

This is a contractual matter. Do a search on IPD/BIM.

It's not just "boy aren't they stingy--why won't they give us the model, or at least the portion I need."

A good agreement between Owner, Architect and GC/CM should contain specific language
about use and sharing of BIM.

If any doubt about this. talk to an attorney before giving away or accepting BIM as part of your scope of work and standard of care in practice.

cheers

[Dave Jones]

Again,

This is a contractual matter. Do a search on IPD/BIM.

It's not just "boy aren't they stingy--why won't they give us the model, or at least the portion I need."

A good agreement between Owner, Architect and GC/CM should contain specific language
about use and sharing of BIM.

If any doubt about this. talk to an attorney before giving away or accepting BIM as part of your scope of work and standard of care in practice.

cheers

I'm reading the AIA definition of IPD doc as we speak. In my latest request for a simplified model I've asked the please tell us if there is a contractual reason that they can't share the model and if so we'll go our way and do what we have to do. To just say "no" or to ignore me is not enough information for me.

[twiceroadsfool]

Its only a contractual issue, if it says in the contract they are supposed to share. If its not in the contract to share models, then of COURSE theyll give you some standard "Nothing in the model supercedes whats in the contract documents and dimensions, and some quantities may be incorrect as they were modeled to the extent needed for the DRAWING of the contract documents..." blah blah blah, but the fact remains, REGARDLESS of the contract, if they wanted to be team players they could send it anyway.

Ive worked for firms that wouldnt send it though, because of all of the singy intellectual property "thats our work product" attitudes, lol.

[cliff collins]

Its only a contractual issue, if it says in the contract they are supposed to share. If its not in the contract to share models, then of COURSE theyll give you some standard "Nothing in the model supercedes whats in the contract documents and dimensions, and some quantities may be incorrect as they were modeled to the extent needed for the DRAWING of the contract documents..." blah blah blah, but the fact remains, REGARDLESS of the contract, if they wanted to be team players they could send it anyway.



Ive worked for firms that wouldnt send it though, because of all of the singy intellectual property "thats our work product" attitudes, lol.

But this could put them at risk by giving away intellectual property WITHOUT a Contract.
I'm all for a true BIM/IPD arrangement and see very strong potential benefits.
But I'm also for a strong Contractual agreement which supports it.
Without this, there is inherent risk for all team members--which is why a good BIM Strategy/Planning session should happen at project onset--and establish role/responsibilities and result in a team-derived contractual agreement signed by all parties before work proceeds.

Here's an intersting article on a local project that used IPD:

http://bimjournal.com/art.asp?art=45&issue=15

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

Hence the digital media disclaimers we alllllllll make people sign, every time we send CAD OR REVIT files out of the office. I stand by what i said: They could (and can) send it, regardless, if they want to. They can send it and cover it with a signed disclaimer that it doesnt supercede anything in the official contract documents.

[Dave Jones]

Hence the digital media disclaimers we alllllllll make people sign, every time we send CAD OR REVIT files out of the office. I stand by what i said: They could (and can) send it, regardless, if they want to. They can send it and cover it with a signed disclaimer that it doesnt supercede anything in the official contract documents.

I said this earlier, but this is so strangely like 10 years ago with CAD files. I used to have to sign a waiver for any and all Architectural docs that I received in CAD format. I betcha I haven't signed one in 3 or 4 years now and I get Arch dwgs in CAD on every project that I do.

[twiceroadsfool]

It probably made its way in to all of their contracts, and thats why. We send it with the front end, BUT if there isnt a front end included that has it, we send it after the fact. It really isnt any different.

BTW, there are 4 or 5 projects in house on our construction side (were architecture and construction), and on those 4 or 5 there is no "IPD/BIM contract" with the architects, but guess what... They sent their models. :)

[cliff collins]

I agree that letter of the law would allow a written disclaimer to be used. But it may need to be written differently for BIM than the old Cad disclaimer.

I think we would all agree that a Revit model is a different animal than some Cad files.
More richness in information, more benefit available, thus more at risk as well.

I believe stronger contractual language should be in place, and better yet--an IPD contract method like the example I posted. The hospital project team was a pretty sophisticated
group, including our MEP Consultant. The contracts were written well in advance of the curtainwall sub asking for a "piece of the Revit model" with a disclaimer. The stakes are just higher, and the benefits are much more rewarding.

But--to each his own--"travel at your own risk" applies when wading off into new legal territory. It's really best to consult an attorney 1st, then make BIM sharing agreements--
not try to force something into a pre-existing contract.

Here's another insightful link:

http://bimjournal.com/art.asp?art=44&issue=15

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

All good and well, if everyone was on board on day one. If theyre not, well, i guess you can eat that 30% and remodel everything......... Or get them to use a disclaimer. :)

[cliff collins]

Aaron,

Talk to Turner, or Alberici, or Mc Carthy--and they will tell you that they REQUIRE their subs to be on board at contract signing, and be BIM capable--or they do not get the job.

So--my point is to do just that--get them on board early, with BIM language in the contract, and then we won't be wasting time arguing back and forth about "disclaimers"
and the OP would not be in the uncomforatble predicament he's currently in.

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

Cliff-

Im not disagreeing with you. And im not going to clutter another thread going around and around with you. Is it MORE IDEAL to get on board early on? Yes. And i dont need to be educated on it. We mandate all of OUR subs do the exact same thing.

My point is, if youre NOT in that position, because the job has ALREADY STARTED AND THE CONTRACT WASNT IN PLACE, you can STILL share models.

Starting the OP's project over from the beginning isnt an option right now. Its waste time with disclaimers, or waste time building a new model. I live in the real world, idealism is great in ideal situations. The rest of the time, we do what we have to do.

Cheers!

[Dave Jones]

Cliff-
(snip)
Starting the OP's project over from the beginning isnt an option right now. Its waste time with disclaimers, or waste time building a new model. I live in the real world, idealism is great in ideal situations. The rest of the time, we do what we have to do.

Cheers!

The OP's (me) uncomfortable situation is over. I just received the login information to the GC ftp site containing ALL documents, .dwg's, and .rvt's for my project. Sometimes it pays to be a bulldog and not let go of the cuff when they say no :p

Thanks to all for your valued input. I am going to get a handle on IPD for future use. Now, back to work...lots to do

[twiceroadsfool]

I figured they would send it eventually. :)

[Dave Jones]

I figured they would send it eventually. :)

I wasn't so sure, but am glad they did. Now to figure out how to put the whole mess together. There is a base Architectural model that has a linked Structural model but the Structural model available for download has a different name. I believe it has been updated but the link in the Arch model was not updated. I'm hoping it's as simple as unloading the old using Manage Links and loading the new using Link Revit. Haven't had time to try it yet but will alter this morning. Thanks Aaron for your input

[twiceroadsfool]

Use Reload From, you dont even have to unload it...

[Dave Jones]

Use Reload From, you dont even have to unload it...

that was my "slide the question in at the end of the thread" routine so no one would know what a noob I am :p Thanks! I'll give that a try

[martijnderiet]

But what I want to know is: did you have to sign anything prior to release?
In my opinion (and experience) the contract has nothing to do with it. It's just a matter of protecting your families, thinking that every nucklehead will go and rip off your families. It seems like every Reviteer thinks that his/her families are The Best there out there, forgetting that I don't care nor trust them. I can blow holes in every family I get created by someone else, probably the same as every one here will blow holes in mine.

[cliff collins]

The "contract has nothing do do with it" UNTIL there's a problem!

Like--"hey look, that building looks just like that Revit model we did 4 years ago---
hey--that IS the building we did 4 years ago.

I have actually seen this happen, when PAPER DRAWINGS were "given away"
with a disclaimer.

LOL

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

If theyre going to do it with a legal disclaimer in place, theyre going to do it with a *contract* in place too. Both are grounds for suit.

LOL.

[Dave Jones]

But what I want to know is: did you have to sign anything prior to release?
In my opinion (and experience) the contract has nothing to do with it. It's just a matter of protecting your families, thinking that every nucklehead will go and rip off your families. It seems like every Reviteer thinks that his/her families are The Best there out there, forgetting that I don't care nor trust them. I can blow holes in every family I get created by someone else, probably the same as every one here will blow holes in mine.

no disclaimer had to be signed and Architectural Revit project models have absolutely no families that I have any need for. I, like you, don't trust any families other than my own. And some of those aren't even trustworthy :p