Curtainwall shops and BIM/Revit

[jkendall.200868]

I'm a curtain wall drafter/designer/engineer working for a small firm that provides shop drawing and engineering services to curtain wall manufacturers and glass dealers, mostly manufacturers. We've been getting inquiries as to whether we are able to provide BIM support. Usually it's an email with a list of software asking us a yes or no if we have Revit.

Most of our work is in 2d Autocad, simply because our clients' drafting standards are based on that and we have to provide drawings that fit into their system and process. Losing projects because of lack of BIM support is rousing them from their slumber, but I don't get the impression they understand what is being asked of them. I'm several degrees of separation from the architect so it's hard to get a handle on what is required.

My main question: If you are requesting BIM support for a project from your curtain wall or storefront supplier, what exactly is it that you are asking for? A static 3d model to insert into your Revit model or Navisworks? A Revit native model built with its curtain wall generating tools?

Here are my initial concerns:
From what I understand, Revit would not be an ideal tool for creating curtain wall shop drawings. For shops we require an extreme amount of detail for customization, fabrication and installation of the system. Inventor seems like the appropriate tool, and we do have Inventor experience. We would love to be already doing all our shops in Inventor if our clients would accept shops that didn't look and work exactly like their own Autocad standards. If you requested BIM support on a project and I submitted an exported adsk file through AEC Exchange or Navisworks or something, would that be acceptable?

I'm trying to wrap my brain around how to work with a single model that meets the manufacturing/fabrication requirements as well as the general architectural requirements without manually maintaining two separate models.

Any thoughts on the subject are appreciated.

[Dave Jones]

Any thoughts on the subject are appreciated.

wow, where to begin? I am also a curtain wall detailer and have been in the commercial glass biz since '69 and started using Acad in '91. I cross graded to Revit in Dec of last year after I lost a major project to another company because I was not BIM capable. So, I am a mere Revit beginner in comparison to others here and compared to my knowledge of and ability to use AutoCAD.

My thoughts about using Revit to detail curtain wall are, #1) it is not the perfect software to do what we do (but neither is Inventor) but with the proper training (which I'm in the middle of) and some slight of hand, a very nice set of shop drawings can be output from a Revit model including highly detailed details, glass schedules, extrusion cut lists, etc. #2) It doesn't matter how or what you have done with AutoCAD in the past. It is on its way out and Revit is the future (purely my opinion). #3) Doing shop drawings with Revit, like with Inventor, cost more. So you have to charge more. #4) Doing drawings with Revit takes longer. So you need to get more schedule time (the toughest hurdle of the batch).

good luck to you and feel free to email me directly if you'd like to join our small group of curtain wall detailers that share information, families, etc. dave at ddpcad dot com

[jkendall.200868]

Thanks, Dave! I've seen your name (and lots of helpful info) on several posts when searching this forum for "curtain wall." I'm curious what level of detail you can incorporate into your model inside Revit, and what you have to add manually later in your detail views. I'm more interested in modeling everything (shear blocks, fasteners, joint plugs, anchor clips, steel reinforcing inside the curtain wall frame, etc) and having to manually detail very little beyond maybe sketching in surrounding conditions. It seems like Inventor would offer me a much tighter level of control than Revit families, but I'm pretty ignorant about the Revit side of things.

[Dave Jones]

Thanks, Dave! I've seen your name (and lots of helpful info) on several posts when searching this forum for "curtain wall." I'm curious what level of detail you can incorporate into your model inside Revit, and what you have to add manually later in your detail views. I'm more interested in modeling everything (shear blocks, fasteners, joint plugs, anchor clips, steel reinforcing inside the curtain wall frame, etc) and having to manually detail very little beyond maybe sketching in surrounding conditions. It seems like Inventor would offer me a much tighter level of control than Revit families, but I'm pretty ignorant about the Revit side of things.

There are a few ways that you can "detail" in Revit. You can import and explode Acad details (not recommended), you can link Acad details (this is what I'm doing 1/2 of the time while my Revit library of details is being developed), you can detail in Revit over Acad detail linked underlays, or some combination of all of those. One of the big problems that I have had with Revit detailing is that there is a limit to how small the length of a Revit line can be. I have found ways around this. The attached is detailed with all Revit lines, dimensions, annotations, etc. My Revit details have the same amount of detail as my Acad details do. At this point because most everything has to be created from scratch in Revit detailing takes longer but that will ease as I do more and more projects in Revit.

Another option that I've used a couple of times due to schedule is model the framing in Revit and do the details in Acad. I still get the advantage of scheduling parts and pieces and the speed of getting the details done in Acad. I'm working to minimize this work flow though.

hope that helps,

[jkendall.200868]

Thanks, that's helpful. So are T and F anchors and shear blocks and things like that just detailed in later, or are those actually part of your model? Or in your detail there, if you had to change to a different style Trifab sub-sill in your framing model, would the detail automatically update to reflect that change?

I'd still be interested in hearing from the building designer/architect side as to what's acceptable/ideal/helpful/hindrance.

[Dave Jones]

Thanks, that's helpful. So are T and F anchors and shear blocks and things like that just detailed in later, or are those actually part of your model? Or in your detail there, if you had to change to a different style Trifab sub-sill in your framing model, would the detail automatically update to reflect that change?

I'd still be interested in hearing from the building designer/architect side as to what's acceptable/ideal/helpful/hindrance.

accessories are handled with shared parameters which are schedulable. IOW, does a vertical mullion have a T clip on the bottom, the top, or both are yes/no parameters that you enter the data for when creating the curtain wall frame and then the schedule tells you where they occur and how many there are. I don't include anything in the model but a profile like the attached which can "flex" to create different system sizes/shapes/glazing locations. These shapes are a profile family that is loaded into the project then used to create what Revit calls mullions that are modeled as heads, sills, mullions, jambs, etc. There are parameters for assembly type, finish, and a multitude of other things that I need to extract as information.

As to detailing, I do this with detail views into which I load various families of building substrates, frame details, caulk joints, fasteners, and those items are dimensioned and annotated in those views. So, you have a curtain wall elevation with a vertical section through it, the section has detail callouts at the head, horiz, and sill. These take you to the detail view which has way more detail included than is in the model. If you start trying to model every little part and piece in a system you'll grow old before the job is done not to mention bloat the model to the point it will be like molassas to work in.

Architects don't work weekends like curtain wall detailers do so you'll have to wait until Monday to hear from them :p

[jkendall.200868]

Architects don't work weekends like curtain wall detailers do so you'll have to wait until Monday to hear from them :p

Ha, I thought of that as soon as I clicked submit.

Thanks, that gives me a much better understanding of what Revit can do. One of these days I'll have to download demos of Revit and Inventor and make some curtainwall frames. I used Inventor quite a bit for machine design, but that was about 5 years ago on Inventor 7. I suspect Inventor would serve us better on the manufacturer side (who is our direct customer) and Revit would serve us best on the architect side (our customer's customer's customer's customer).

[Dave Jones]

Ha, I thought of that as soon as I clicked submit.

Thanks, that gives me a much better understanding of what Revit can do. One of these days I'll have to download demos of Revit and Inventor and make some curtainwall frames. I used Inventor quite a bit for machine design, but that was about 5 years ago on Inventor 7. I suspect Inventor would serve us better on the manufacturer side (who is our direct customer) and Revit would serve us best on the architect side (our customer's customer's customer's customer).

Again, we have a small informal group of curtain wall detailers that share things that we all need to get our jobs done. You are welcome to join us by emailing me at the address posted above. One of the group uses Inventor for his curtain wall detailing, one is just starting on Revit, and others have varying amounts of Revit experience. We also share Acad details, dynamic blocks, etc. Anything to make us better and faster is our motto. So far we are in CA, NV, TX, and FL. Where are you?

[jkendall.200868]

Shot you an email, thanks!

[twiceroadsfool]

When we (architects.... working weekends) ASK for a BIM capable delivery, were fine with both native Revit, and Inventor. In fact, we almost prefer Inventor, since we know its the tool more "made" for what youre doing. Any design team worth their weight will want you using the solution thats most efficient, and most intelligent (as little inintelligent CAD as possible) from you. If thats inventor, its Inventor. If its Revit, its Revit.

[Valkin]

First off Architects do work weekends, they just talk with others when they do so.

What Architects want out of BIM from the Curtain wall manufacture is information. If you can take our Revit models and sped up your process great, but I feel the main goal is to have a true asbuilt of the curtain wall that can be turned over to the owner for their FM process. If that is done in inventor or revit it doesn't matter. (I know inventor objects can be brought into revit.) I have a project where we have a curtain wall that is on a large curve, and that same curtain wall also slopes outward, so that means that our piece of glass is slight trapezoid, my main goal for this would be to have a curtain paned schedule that would give give me the exact size and coating information of any one piece of glass in that curtain wall system in case it needs to be replaced, as well as information on who put it together so the owner could go back to that manufacture for replacement parts or this who put this together for me last time I want them again because the did a good job.

[jkendall.200868]

Thanks so much, I appreciate your thoughts on this. I know you guys work Saturday's, too. :)

How willing are you guys to share your Revit model with sub-contractors? You would be amazed at the struggle I often have just to get a decent set of electronic 2d construction drawings sometimes. It's like the old "telephone" game we played as kids. I whisper "dwf" in my customer's ear and by the time it comes back to me it's "worse-than-fax quality scanned TIF files, not to scale." I'm sure it's not usually the architect that's withholding, it's someone along the line that doesn't know what a dwf is and won't ask for it.

Also, has this changed your review process at all? Do you ever have a supplier just submit a basic model of the framing to get checked for architectural intent and fit before shop drawings and engineering are taken to completion?

I had someone at one manufacturer say that when they are asked for BIM support, they will not generate a 3d model until their 2d shop drawings are completely reviewed and approved by the architect. This seems completely backward to me and nearly opposite of the whole point of BIM and/or IPD, but I'm pretty new to the scene so maybe that's typical?

[twiceroadsfool]

Thanks so much, I appreciate your thoughts on this. I know you guys work Saturday's, too. :)

How willing are you guys to share your Revit model with sub-contractors? You would be amazed at the struggle I often have just to get a decent set of electronic 2d construction drawings sometimes. It's like the old "telephone" game we played as kids. I whisper "dwf" in my customer's ear and by the time it comes back to me it's "worse-than-fax quality scanned TIF files, not to scale." I'm sure it's not usually the architect that's withholding, it's someone along the line that doesn't know what a dwf is and won't ask for it.


Thats rediculous, but sadly i know a lot of places and firms that still play by those rules. If we've mandated a collaborative work process (heck, if we have, or the client has, regardless), we send the model out to the whole team, in some form of useable 3D model.



Also, has this changed your review process at all? Do you ever have a supplier just submit a basic model of the framing to get checked for architectural intent and fit before shop drawings and engineering are taken to completion?


Were always working to get the subs in to the process EARLIER, for this exact reason.



I had someone at one manufacturer say that when they are asked for BIM support, they will not generate a 3d model until their 2d shop drawings are completely reviewed and approved by the architect. This seems completely backward to me and nearly opposite of the whole point of BIM and/or IPD, but I'm pretty new to the scene so maybe that's typical?

No, your senses are spot on. Thats completely pointless. If the documentation isnt BASED on the Model, then chances are theyre not taking as much time and care with the model anyway. Even if they are, its a waste. If theyre using the right tool, they dont have to charge the client to do the whole thing twice.

[Dave Jones]

When we (architects.... working weekends) ASK for a BIM capable delivery, were fine with both native Revit, and Inventor. In fact, we almost prefer Inventor, since we know its the tool more "made" for what youre doing. Any design team worth their weight will want you using the solution thats most efficient, and most intelligent (as little inintelligent CAD as possible) from you. If thats inventor, its Inventor. If its Revit, its Revit.

come on Aaron, were you *really* working on Sat? I think that you posted from the hammock in your backyard with one hand on your blackberry as the other hand was holding a beer :p

seriously, I agree with your take from a design team's perspective. However, there's more to it from our side. I'm not arguing Revit vs Inventor, I'm saying that there is intelligence that we (curtain wall detailers) can build into the model that doesn't matter to you (the design team). But we need it and if we can get it with Revit (I'm figuring out how to do that) or Inventor it doesn't matter to our customers. They want what they've always wanted: accuracy, speed, value, and it's the value added due to Revit use that is making me more desirable as a source. I like that.

[twiceroadsfool]

come on Aaron, were you *really* working on Sat? I think that you posted from the hammock in your backyard with one hand on your blackberry as the other hand was holding a beer :p

seriously, I agree with your take from a design team's perspective. However, there's more to it from our side. I'm not arguing Revit vs Inventor, I'm saying that there is intelligence that we (curtain wall detailers) can build into the model that doesn't matter to you (the design team). But we need it and if we can get it with Revit (I'm figuring out how to do that) or Inventor it doesn't matter to our customers. They want what they've always wanted: accuracy, speed, value, and it's the value added due to Revit use that is making me more desirable as a source. I like that.

Dave-

I think im saying the same thing you are, maybe my phrasing is off. What im saying, if: if ONE of those platforms is BETTER for the subs, because it has additional intelligence that THEY need (even though we dont), than THATS the platform we WANT them to work in. We want a model, but we want the most intelligent model for the SUBS, that we can get. We dont want a model built in Revit just because theyre placating us by using Revit.

Thats the only reason i stipulated Inventor MAY be better. You and i have talked about some inherent limitations with scale in Revit (not that it wont do large, it just wont do extremely small very well, nor will it do "process" the way Inventor will). We've got a team intenally that did Window Detailing in Inventor for a job, and what they did in Inventor we wouldnt have been able to do with ease in Revit.

At the end, it would be NICE if we could get the subs model in to Revit. And SOME platforms, we cant. But most, we can. And if we cant, its alright. Our collaboration tools (for the point of the project where subs models come in), are generally such that platform wont matter...

[Dave Jones]

First off Architects do work weekends, they just talk with others when they do so.

What Architects want out of BIM from the Curtain wall manufacture is information. If you can take our Revit models and sped up your process great, but I feel the main goal is to have a true asbuilt of the curtain wall that can be turned over to the owner for their FM process. If that is done in inventor or revit it doesn't matter. (I know inventor objects can be brought into revit.) I have a project where we have a curtain wall that is on a large curve, and that same curtain wall also slopes outward, so that means that our piece of glass is slight trapezoid, my main goal for this would be to have a curtain paned schedule that would give give me the exact size and coating information of any one piece of glass in that curtain wall system in case it needs to be replaced, as well as information on who put it together so the owner could go back to that manufacture for replacement parts or this who put this together for me last time I want them again because the did a good job.

This is exactly what I do. I'm starting my second Revit project. On the first project I took the Architect's model, lifted the grids, floors, walls, and roof and left everything else behind. I then created all of the storefront, window wall, and curtain wall from scratch for each area in which they were required. The resultant product can be used to create a shop drawing set, build the frame openings, order the required materials (extrusions, accessories, and glass), and fabricate and install the product. That was an easy one. The next project is much bigger and besides glazed framing has 4 different rain screen aluminum panel systems. I'll go at this one much the same as I did the last one. And I expect the result to be the same: a useful intelligent model that can be used by the team to determine what we are doing and how.

btw, I was just kidding about Architects working on weekends...

[Dave Jones]

How willing are you guys to share your Revit model with sub-contractors?

Jon, if you haven't seen it before check out this thread regarding sharing the model that has some insight from the Architects that frequent this forum

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=122388&highlight=Dave+Jones+DDP

[Dave Jones]

Dave-

I think im saying the same thing you are, maybe my phrasing is off. What im saying, if: if ONE of those platforms is BETTER for the subs, because it has additional intelligence that THEY need (even though we dont), than THATS the platform we WANT them to work in. We want a model, but we want the most intelligent model for the SUBS, that we can get. We dont want a model built in Revit just because theyre placating us by using Revit.

Thats the only reason i stipulated Inventor MAY be better. You and i have talked about some inherent limitations with scale in Revit (not that it wont do large, it just wont do extremely small very well, nor will it do "process" the way Inventor will). We've got a team intenally that did Window Detailing in Inventor for a job, and what they did in Inventor we wouldnt have been able to do with ease in Revit.

At the end, it would be NICE if we could get the subs model in to Revit. And SOME platforms, we cant. But most, we can. And if we cant, its alright. Our collaboration tools (for the point of the project where subs models come in), are generally such that platform wont matter...

yes, we are on the same page. I made the choice almost a year ago to go the Revit direction and I'll make that work for me. I mentioned to Jon earlier in this thread that I'm a part of a group, a consortium as it were, of curtain wall detailers that share ideas, information, details, experience, etc. We all have AutoCAD in common but one of those involved is an Inventor user. If I ever come upon a situation where Inventor is required to get a job done, well, I'll do what I have to do to make that happen. There is strength in numbers ;)

[jkendall.200868]

I hope you don't mind all the questions. Are any of you using Navisworks or something like it to coordinate non-Revit models from your subs, or are you pretty much just bringing things into your Revit model?

[Craig_L]

Hi,
thought I would chime in, I have just had a brief read through of your post here, and to be totally honest I'm not sure if this will be suitable for your needs as I don't deal with such fine details as detailing curtain walls and all their fixings.

You may find this usefule though!

http://www.aecsystems.com.au/mwf.html

It's an addon that runs with the revit platform which can schedule and generate stud walls, and I assume some level of a detail of a curtain wall, for you.

As most of it is handled in excel, I imagine you could build yourself manufacturer specific templates to use in almost any project, which would really cut down a significant portion of your modelling time in Revit, then you're just left to detail and fine tune.

Hope it helps

[jkendall.200868]

That looks like a pretty cool system for stud framing, Karalon, probably not really what we need, though.

So far, I'm leaning towards using Inventor for the shop drawings, and Navisworks for coordinating my shop models with the architect's Revit model. It seems like this would be the easiest way to coordinate revisions without re-converting/importing lots of stuff as the project progresses. I'm assuming Navisworks updates as the various Revit and Inventor models update, without having to re-import and re-locate.

Autodesk's Factory Design Suite looks like a pretty good package deal, includes Autocad, Inventor, Navisworks Simulate, and Vault. I'd like to get by without buying Revit, but may need to so I can pull the relevant structure I need for modeling in Inventor. That's a lot of software and subscription $$$'s, but if those are the appropriate tools it's probably worth it.

One of the challenges is going to be keeping all the people between me and the architect (manufacturer, glass dealer/installer, GC) in the loop if they lag behind on the tech. I'm guessing as the industry changes that someone like me would be brought in earlier to the design process.

[Dave Jones]

One of the challenges is going to be keeping all the people between me and the architect (manufacturer, glass dealer/installer, GC) in the loop if they lag behind on the tech. I'm guessing as the industry changes that someone like me would be brought in earlier to the design process.

what's the diff between Navisworks and Navisworks Simulate? I checked out Navisworks but as a single person shop I couldn't afford the $9k that it costs.

I hear you about keeping everyone in the loop and up to speed on the tech. I have customers that don't do email yet. Makes it rather difficult to explain to them how to download files from my ftp site or have a meeting with Go To Meeting :p

[jkendall.200868]

Navisworks Manage (MSRP $10k) does clash detection, I think Navisworks Simulate (MSRP $2495) does everything but clash detection, and Navisworks Freedom is a free viewer (which actually might be a good way to bring in glass dealers to the review process).

[cliff collins]

FWIW,

Autodesk Design Review (.dwfx ) is also a pretty good (free) format for exchanging 3D models and information/properties from Revit and other formats among team members. It's easy to use, and can help get "non-tech savy" team members up and running and participating without having to invest in Revit or Inventor software, training and other time/expenses.

cheers

[st_james13588345]

Good day to all,

Im also cad detailer designer, now the client asking for revit model, which needs data parameters. but my problem is there are some curtain wall components which dont have family to start with, like silicon, gaskets, aluminum cladding... How do you do this things in revit?

[Alfredo Medina]

Well, you have a learning curve ahead of you to migrate your CAD based curtain wall detailing business into Revit to respond to the trend of the market. For those components that you mention, you have 2 options: do the main modeling of the curtain walls in Revit, and then link to your existing CAD details, or, create your own detail components families in Revit, to re-create your library of details with parametric Revit details.

I know a very busy curtain wal detailer who made this transition a couple of years ago, and now he is getting more work than before. I have also heard that other curtain wall detailers work with Inventor. That is another choice. But I cannot comment on that, since I don't know about Inventor.