To do in Revit or not to…….. that is the question

[tim.101799]

Going to be starting a large retail project (approx 70,000 sqft) in the next couple of days and we are trying to figure out if it’s worth it to do this project in Revit. It’s a proto typical store (new building) and the client provides the design team with criteria drawings and CAD files (ACAD) that cover 80% to 90% of all the sections, details, notes & schedules that we will need to complete the CD’s. They will also be providing a floor / fixture plan in ACAD that we are to use as our starting point. We have 10 weeks to complete the project and are jumping right into CD’s, no SD or DD phase on this project. My gut tells me is not worth it to try and do this one in Revit.


What do you guys think?


Has anyone tackled a project like this in Revit when so much information was provided to you by the client already done in ACAD?

[twiceroadsfool]

I used to get prototypical work like that from clients all the time, and we worked in Revit.

In my humble opinion, the "go/no go" decision making that happens in offices automatically gets everyone in the wrong mindset. Is it WORTH it do to a project in Revit? It sounds like an upcharge in a repair shop.

I DO my projects in revit. And theyre better projects for it.

[tim.101799]

I used to get prototypical work like that from clients all the time, and we worked in Revit.

In my humble opinion, the "go/no go" decision making that happens in offices automatically gets everyone in the wrong mindset. Is it WORTH it do to a project in Revit? It sounds like an upcharge in a repair shop.

I DO my projects in revit. And theyre better projects for it.


My office doesn't typically do this type of work, and all of my projects for the past several years have been in Revit. Some pretty large / complicated ones at that. Not sure how well those would have turned out if done in ACAD. The P.I.C. on this project is very Pro Revit, as are most at my firm and he has told me this is entirely my decision. But I have two concerns about doing this in Revit

1. The shear amount of ACAD material to bring into Revit is daunting

2. In this economy we need to make money on every project and jumping right into CD’s doesn’t not mesh well with our Revit work flow. We have found on our past projects that our SD and DD phases take more time with Revit, but we fly through CD’s and come out ahead. But its in the SD & DD phases the we model a majority of the building. I will not have that time to model the building, and all the upfront modeling time will eat into my time for CD’s.


Keep in mind that I HATE AutoCAD, but I am seriously considering using it for the reasons listed above.

[cliff collins]

We have small hotel projects like that. Client has a full prototype in Cad--
but we bite the bullet and build the Revit model.

The 1st time is a money loser--but also consider it an investment for the future.
Once you build the 1st Revit model, the next ones literally FLY out the door,
and you begin reaping the benefits of having it in Revit.

You also are now armed with BIM instead of a bunch of 2D cad files.
There are lots of benefits for the entire team to have a BIM project--and this can equate
to real value for the Owner if the design team exposes the benfits and educates the Owner
and Contractor to the advantages of BIM at all phases including construction and lifecycle/
FM.

I agree with Aaron that if there is some "hestitation" or questioning about
whether its worth it or not to do the project in Revit, then the office mentality is not there yet. Doing the proptotype in Revit from the provided Cad files is a great excercise and learning experience for the team--and it should help fully "convert" any dye-in-the-wool
AutoCad users to Revit and convince any doubters that Revit is the future and that
AutoCad is not best suited to do architecture.

In the end it's not about "doing it in Revit or not, since we already have it in Cad"
It's about convincing the Owner that there is a real business benefit to having a BIM project. If the Owner does not buy in to this, or if it's a one-time-only job with no future/repeat projects--then doing it in Cad could actually be the best decision--despite how much that rubs me the wrong way as a Revit enthusiast.

just my 2 c worth.

cheers

[tim.101799]

I used to get prototypical work like that from clients all the time, and we worked in Revit.
.

what was your work flow? did you recreate all the ACAD provided content from the client in Revit?

Did you import all of the ACAD info into Revit?

Did you do some sort of a hybrid, some in Revit, some in CAD?

[tim.101799]

We have small hotel projects like that. Client has a full prototype in Cad--
but we bite the bullet and build the Revit model.

The 1st time is a money loser--but also consider it an investment for the future.
Once you build the 1st Revit model, the next ones literally FLY out the door,
and you begin reaping the benefits of having it in Revit.

You also are now armed with BIM instead of a bunch of 2D cad files.
There are lots of benefits for the entire team to have a BIM project--and this can equate
to real value for the Owner if the design team exposes the benfits and educates the Owner
and Contractor to the advantages of BIM at all phases including construction and lifecycle/
FM.

I agree with Aaron that if there is some "hestitation" or questioning about
whether its worth it or not to do the project in Revit, then the office mentality is not there yet. Doing the proptotype in Revit from the provided Cad files is a great excercise and learning experience for the team--and it should help fully "convert" any dye-in-the-wool
AutoCad users to Revit and convince any doubters that Revit is the future and that
AutoCad is not best suited to do architecture.

In the end it's not about "doing it in Revit or not, since we already have it in Cad"
It's about convincing the Owner that there is a real business benefit to having a BIM project. If the Owner does not buy in to this, or if it's a one-time-only job with no future/repeat projects--then doing it in Cad could actually be the best decision--despite how much that rubs me the wrong way as a Revit enthusiast.

just my 2 c worth.

cheers

Building the model to generate plans, elevations, & sections doesn’t not concern me that much. I am worried about everything else. The client has provided us with hundreds of typical details, sections, notes, & schedules already completed. Do we recreate all of this information in Revit? Or do we import all of this information? I was always under the impression that the best practice was to import as little from ACAD as possible. That too many ACAD imports could cause file corruption problems.

[cliff collins]

Importing or linking too many ( it boils down to data management ) Cad files will indeed
cause performance problems in Revit.

It is best practice to "convert" all the details from Cad to Revit details.
But as mentioned before, this is where all the "time" goes--and the fee along with it, esp. the 1st time around. There are lots of threads here on AUGI about converting Cad details to Revit. DO NOT explode the Cad files!

If the client will be duplicating the prototype building on several sites, then it's worth it from all points of view to invest the time to make it a full Revit project. Or even if each job is a slight variation on a theme, it's still worth it.

It is possible to do a "hybrid" Revit/Cad project--but not ideal and it usually causes
more problems than its worth.

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

what was your work flow? did you recreate all the ACAD provided content from the client in Revit?

Did you import all of the ACAD info into Revit?

Did you do some sort of a hybrid, some in Revit, some in CAD?

I certainly didnt import any of it. And the only details i even "converted" from CAD, were the ones that were truly "non dimension critical" standard generic details. if theyre particular to the building, they should be done live in Revit.

If the "details" they give you in CAD are as well thought out and coordinated as they think they are, redoing it correctly in Revit wont take that long. If theyre NOT well thought out and coordinated, youll find out in a hurry. Importing CAD drawings or converting them to drafted Revit details in Drafting views, isnt much better than doing the work in CAD, frankly.

I would be doing the project in Revit regardless, even if it was a one off thing. If the fee is so small that you cant make money tossing a building model together and shoving out a set of construction documents out the door, with no SD/DD design time, but the design is done, then: 1. Either i wouldnt chase the work (The question is: is the job to make a profit, or is the job to get the work), or 2. Its a client you want to keep happy for some reason, so id eat it and give them a better product and minimize the cost effect as best you can.

I still have AutoCAD. Its still a good program. It still serves a purpose. For me, that purpose isnt Architecture anymore.

[vgonzales]

Tim,

I would do a hybrid process. The details would be left in AutoCAD and the 3D building elements would modeled in Revit to generate the plans, sections, elevations. I think that is the best approach. You can waste a lot of time recreating the drafting details in Revit.

[twiceroadsfool]

You can waste a lot of time jumping back and forth to fix things, too. Also, keep in mind, particular areas of concern linking/importing CAD details in to Revit:

-Text with special characters = not supported
-.shx font = not supported
-Dimension styles and Text styles may not hatch
-Hatch densities are sometimes difficult to work with (hatches at certain densities convert to solid fill)
-Some hatched areas (hatch by pick point instead of pline) tend to bleed out of their boundary on Link
-Annotative Scales are finicky when used in conjunction with Revit
-Lineweights and Linetypes will not automatically correspond to your Revit detailing.

Have fun with that. Ive never seen it be faster to import and manage CAD stuff in Revit.

[sbrown]

Beware of Typical prototype drawings. One of the first projects I worked on was a Marriott Residence Inn where they supplied the "proto-type" drawings. I took them to be correct. Only to learn during the construction phase that there were many problems with them that had not been solved. We had literally 1000s of RFI's. So if I had Revit at that time and had put the project in it(just like a contractor would do today). I would have learned all the issues and been able to save us countless hours in the field.

So I recommend putting it in Revit.

[cliff collins]

Excellent point, Scott.

You just have to convince Owners of that with tried and tested results
from actual projects, and then they may be willing to pay a bit more for BIM.

I recently read something that one of the large hotel chains has now converted all their standard proptotypes to Revit.......and have done away with building full-scale mockups
and instead use the Revit/3dsMax renderings for stakeholder approvals and saved a whole lot of time and dollars doing so.

Try doing that with your AutoCad dwgs and rolls of 2d paper plans!

cheers

[twiceroadsfool]

Beware of Typical prototype drawings. One of the first projects I worked on was a Marriott Residence Inn where they supplied the "proto-type" drawings. I took them to be correct. Only to learn during the construction phase that there were many problems with them that had not been solved. We had literally 1000s of RFI's. So if I had Revit at that time and had put the project in it(just like a contractor would do today). I would have learned all the issues and been able to save us countless hours in the field.

So I recommend putting it in Revit.

Exactly my point. If the prototypes are really correct, itll be a breeze to copy them. If theyre not, the owner should thank you for doing it in revit and catching the mistakes.

This is WHY i wouldnt do a hybrid. Do it right.

[ddenton]

Hello Tim,

With all the well thought through concerns mentioned above in regards to using cad in a Revit model taken into consideration, if you do have hundreds of cad details to reuse you might consider the following Revit plug-in.

www.adept-dev.com

This AutoCAD detail manager for Revit allows you to quickly reuse all of your acad details in a Revit model. This isn't a meant to re-introduce cad into the Revit world, but is a great tool for someone trying to reuse cad details while in transition to using Revit 100%, or by those not wanting to convert large dwg detail libraries.

Good luck with your project.

[twiceroadsfool]

Except it means all of those CAD details still wont be live in Revit, so all of the issues discussed herein will still be present. Theyll just be *drafted* in Revit then.

[ddenton]

Yes, the details would just be drafted in Revit

[tim.101799]

Hello Tim,

With all the well thought through concerns mentioned above in regards to using cad in a Revit model taken into consideration, if you do have hundreds of cad details to reuse you might consider the following Revit plug-in.

www.adept-dev.com

This AutoCAD detail manager for Revit allows you to quickly reuse all of your acad details in a Revit model. This isn't a meant to re-introduce cad into the Revit world, but is a great tool for someone trying to reuse cad details while in transition to using Revit 100%, or by those not wanting to convert large dwg detail libraries.

Good luck with your project.

Thanks for that link! This may be just what this project calls for.

[bt1138]

Hello Tim,

With all the well thought through concerns mentioned above in regards to using cad in a Revit model taken into consideration, if you do have hundreds of cad details to reuse you might consider the following Revit plug-in.

www.adept-dev.com

This AutoCAD detail manager for Revit allows you to quickly reuse all of your acad details in a Revit model. This isn't a meant to re-introduce cad into the Revit world, but is a great tool for someone trying to reuse cad details while in transition to using Revit 100%, or by those not wanting to convert large dwg detail libraries.

Good luck with your project.

This is the sort of functionality that should be in Revit right out of the box, if you ask me. Purists can decry this sort of approach, but there are billions of acad files out there, and it is truly astonishing that Autodesk does not bother to create more interoperability between their programs - Like the way revit slaughters ACAD text, just astonishingly bad.

The easier it is to get the old ACAD stuff into revit, the faster we can leave our copy of ACAD on the shelf. We are all cleaning this up as we go, why not make it easier.

[patricks]

The easier it is to get the old ACAD stuff into revit, the faster we can leave our copy of ACAD on the shelf. We are all cleaning this up as we go, why not make it easier.

It's because they still want you to purchase both programs, of course! :roll:

[Steve_Stafford]

I agree with Leo and Scott. If they've provided so many details then it seems a bit redundant to just turn around and give them theirs back. Just reference their standard detail "package".

When it comes to doing a project "over" in Revit when confronted with existing cad based design work...do it. Nothing like a second look at a design to catch errors and coordination problems. It's why contractors tend to do this even if they get a model from someone. The process of modelling is a chance to build the building before you do it onsite and that work forces you to look at it differently than the design team did.

It's my observation that a Revit team tends to know more about the whole project than a cad team does.