Doors - Best Practices

[michael_fett2]

Best door practices! It seems to me there are several theories on which door families are the best. Some believe just a standard door family with size parameters only is the best route. Others believe a fully parametric door with swappable door panels & frames is the best. Other companies use "Superdoor" and some use "All-in-One Door." I realize this is totally a user preference thing, but I'd like to hear some arguments from other firms on which route they think is best.

Michael Fettkether
BIM/IT Specialist

[SkiSouth]

Welcome to AUGI. Quite a bit of discussion on that topic. Might want to look at this search result and review the many discussions HERE (http://forums.augi.com/search.php?searchid=3223223)

[david.kingham]

I've gone back and forth, started with a super door, was told it wasn't the way to go, went to a simple door and it was a pain. I now a super duper deluxe pimped out door :) It has over 3000 types (in a type catalog of course) nested panels, frames, swings, clearances. It's taken a long time to perfect it but now it works incredibly well and I would never go back to a simple door.

[twiceroadsfool]

There is- of course- my preferred option, of a few "in-between" doors.

We use Nested Panels, and we use Nested Frames. The Swings are nested, and were looking at nested Hardwares as well.

BUT, we have 5 actual "Placement" families, for a few different variations on actual Door orientation. In my humble opinion, it makes perfect sense to make things nested and swappable, but there are diminishing returns when you start talking about Doors that operate completely differently (Commercial electric sliding glass door, versus a hallway closet door with regular door panel).

Its 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. Ive done the following strategies, and they work fine in an office:

Doors with Nested Panels. (Frame families are the placement families, swings in Frames)
Doors with Nested Panels, swings Frames (Placement Family is just for placement, but we kept swing variations as seperate)

I know several offices that have Super Doors. I dont generally believe in the ROI to put them together, plus the parameter count gets (imvho) extreme and non-value-adding, but to each their own.

All of our doors are now Instance Parameter sized, and i would NEVER go back to Type. Sounds rediculous when you first hear it, but after youve done a project like that, theres no going back.

[harrisbrett]

We do ours as Nested Panels. So basically I've got a bunch of different families for frame configurations such as one for Single, Single with Sidelight, Single with Double Sidelight, etc. All the door panels are Instance parameters that swap out different panels (A-G). Ours our Type parameter sized though unlike Aarons.

Aaron - any particular reason why you like Instance sized better?

[twiceroadsfool]

Tons of reasons. Honestly though, you really would have to work with them on a project to "feel" the difference. Trying to imagine the difference doesnt do it justice, since we all "get used to revit" using Type doors.

The first time i used Instance doors was when helping an ACA team get their Design Palettes set up. You drop the door, type in its width. In Revit now, i drop in the door, modeless properties, there is the sizes. Drop in a door, there are the sizes. Its great, and its way faster.

Project organization: take all the sizes in to consideration, and ive never seen a project call out "Door Types" different for every single dimension of width, height, frame, etc. You end up with 3'-0"x7'-0"-P1-F4-S light 12x30... And thirty variants.

The biggest refuter ive heard is "well i cant select all instances of a type anymore..." which is true, assuming what you consider a "type" is a conglomerate of every SIZE of the door, which i dont.

And if that is your version of a type, sorting a schedule by dimensions and unitemizing every instance will get you there almost as fast.

Try it out. take some simple door families (OOTB) and convert the width, height, and frame dims, to instance. Youll never go back. :)

Plus, i dont think ive lost ANYTHING having them set up that way.

[Alex Page]

I agree completely with Aaron about having nested components but still creating a number of different doors depending on their "action".

But we have "type based" sizes, and all of our doors are recreated as curtainwall doors as well - easy to do if using nested components.
So the rule is if the door size isnt dependant on the door "leaf" size (example: needs to "fit in" exactly between two walls), we use a curtainwall (with one panel) and swap the panel with a curtainwall door.

The disadvantage of this is that the door "jamb" doesnt automatically align/ find the wall width but the advantage is that it clearly differentiates between standard sizes and non-standard sizes, and "pushes" the user to use standard door sizes (so basically most doors are standard, but the "special" doors are curtainwall doors).

You can still schedule them together and get correct dims of the curtainwall doors with the new reporting parameters.

[gaby424]

for aaron. the align tool is usable? is there a trick in family to keep instance width and use align in project? or you are limited to move tool? i remember an old discution about that. have to find it. match properties carry the instance values between doors? have to test it:) anyway very good point of what realy mean a type.

[twiceroadsfool]

Align tool works great, and the doors dont change size when you use Align. :)

A reference plane set to "Is a reference" will have a pull tab. Thats why align doesnt work. But the reference plane has to "be a reference" for align to work.

But... If there are two reference planes, and the parameter is on the "not a reference" one, which is aligned to the "Is a reference" one.... Align works, and doors dont stretch. :)

EDIT: The match button doesnt change the sizes... Youll also notice they changed it: Its now called Match Type, not Match Properties. The good news is, who cares? Select both doors, go to the modeless properties, and type the sizes in, LOL.

[gaby424]

cool trick with ref plains. :) i read about it some time ago somewhere.

[Dave Jones]

unitemizing

I'd like your permission to add this term to my vocabulary :p

[twiceroadsfool]

I'd like your permission to add this term to my vocabulary :p

I keep an entire dictionary of the Revitation, LOL.

In training we actually have something we call the "stupid button." Its the "do not duplicate views" check box in the Create New Plan dialogue.

Weve got the three "whoops" screens, which we teach about when opening workshared files: Central file cannot be found, This file has been moved or copied, and Referenced files cannot be located.

We've got a bunch of good words.

[Dave Jones]

I keep an entire dictionary of the Revitation, LOL.

and the hits just keep comin' :p

In training we actually have something we call the "stupid button." Its the "do not duplicate views" check box in the Create New Plan dialogue.

Weve got the three "whoops" screens, which we teach about when opening workshared files: Central file cannot be found, This file has been moved or copied, and Referenced files cannot be located.

We've got a bunch of good words.

me too, but most of them aren't sharable on the forum. And, as a noob I rate my daily progress by how many times I say "Whoops!". Getting a little better every day!

[ron.sanpedro]

We probably nest a bit more than others. I have various simplified hardware families (Lever, Pull, Exit Device, etc). Which are then nested into various Leaf families (Flush, Half Glass, Full Glass, Narrow Lite, etc). I also have a 2D family that shows the door and swing in the open position, with the door as a simple masking region.
The doors that get inserted into projects nest in a leaf and a 2D leaf (as 1" above the reference level, to address modeled Finish Floors in plan). The frame is modeled directly in the family. We have three general categories based on frame behavior. Storefront, which has no frame and inserts into curtain walls. Fixed Frame, which offers parameters for frame depth and offset from wall, and is used in masonry walls. And the generic frame that flexes to fit wall thickness. We then have separate families for different frame configurations and leaf types. So a typical
08 10 Double Door + Flush
08 10 Single Door with Relite & Transom + Full Glass
08 10 Single Door - Flush
08 40 Double Door - Frameless

The 08 10 stuff is hollow metal frame. The 08 40 stuff is storefront. The "+" indicates the frame flexes with wall thickness. The "-" indicates the frame doesn't flex (i.e. a fixed frame in a masonry opening or a storefront).

Types are then purely about size, but because of the complexity of some families it is coded somewhat. So a "08 10 Single Door with Relite & Transom - Half Glass" door would have a type of "36x84 12R 12T 2S" which means a 3'-7' door, with 12" Relite, 12" Transom and 2" Relite sill. Most doors have so many variations in the types that we have used Type Catalogs for them.

So far working well. Next step, a Window library.

Gordon