Revit BIM Server [Archive]

AP23

2010-09-28, 11:31 PM

....."It is still not a full-fledged BIM server like ArchiCAD’s, and does not provide a collaborative interface that is as easy and intuitive to use, but it is definitely a big improvement to how worksharing was implemented in Revit prior to it. Going forward, Autodesk will hopefully improve upon the server functionality as well as Revit’s worksharing interface to make collaborative design more seamless and intuitive"......

written by Lachmi Khemlani http://www.aecbytes.com/buildingthefuture/2010/RevitServer_CEA.html

While I haven't tested it out, I expected to be something in the lines of Archicad's BIM server.

ron.sanpedro

2010-09-28, 11:55 PM

I am still trying to figure out if this is of any real value over a LAN, or it just happens to work over a LAN so marketing threw that in as a gratuitous bullet point. It sure looks to be meaningless in the LAN context. And also meaningless from a consultant collaboration perspective due to the one Revit Server limit.
Not to say that something that addresses the distributed/satellite office scenario isn't hugely important, but it sure feels like autodesk marketing is trying to suggest more value, or perhaps more broadly applicable value, than is really there.

Anyone heard anything yet along these lines?

Gordon

brenehan

2010-09-30, 12:22 PM

How do we think it compares to a setup where you have a few users using remote desktop into local workstations using HP's Remote Graphics Software? I have been using this recently and it does work very, very well.
I gather that the "Revit Server" solution is not going to help users wanting to work on shared files from home!

Also with the Revit Server, how do linked rvt and dwg files work? Does the software duplicate this across the WAN? How does the UNC pathing / drive mapping and folder structure work between the two different located offices? Do they have to be the exact same at each end?

It is going to be interesting what level of internal communication we will need to set up for editing and borrowing elements between users in the two different offices. We all know getting a team of 6 to 8 is difficult enough to have people talking and that is when they are on the same floor.
I can see an instant messenger or similar being used.

cliff collins

2010-09-30, 03:41 PM

Scott D Davis

2010-10-01, 02:47 AM

Will Revit Server ONLY work with Windows Server 2008 64 bit ( not R2 ) ?

Yes, R2 is not supported.

Andrew Dobson

2010-10-01, 08:16 AM

Do you need Windows server 2008 64-bit on both the "Central Central Server" and the "Local Central server" to use this feature?

One new Windows 2008 64-bit server is a lot different to changing an entire IT infrastructure across a company.

patricks

2010-10-01, 03:35 PM

I would like to know if this new functionality will really hold any value for us small one-house firms with fewer than 5 Revit users. I'm thinking no. From what I saw on the webcast Monday, this SAP really has nothing of use to us, unless there are other features not discussed during that webcast.

When I work at home I either use RDP directly into my workstation, or VPN to the office server to open a local copy of the central file on my home machine, and it works pretty well.

BMcCallum

2010-10-01, 03:40 PM

What about virtual servers, are they supported?

We are considering testing Revit Server with our internal support team who are spread across four studios. Rolling out 4 local servers plus one central server is going to take some time with physical servers, but I'm told IT can provide virtual servers in a fraction of the time.

twiceroadsfool

2010-10-01, 03:48 PM

Im not sure its Officially Supported, but thats currently our plan as well. We'll be doing it next week.

Andrew Dobson

2010-10-01, 04:10 PM

patricks

2010-10-01, 04:25 PM

I would imagine that a virtual server would be fine.

Its a shame that Revit server doesn't do anything to help those working from home. Having spent the last three weekends working and doing the occasional two hour save to central from home I wish the feature was a bit more like ArchiCAD's solution!

Have you tried using remote desktop? On larger Revit models at home I don't bother with the VPN. We set up port forwarding on our server so that my RDP at home goes directly to my workstation without the need for VPN. Works quite well, and I can even work on a large Revit model on my small Dell 12" laptop.

twiceroadsfool

2010-10-01, 04:58 PM

I would imagine that a virtual server would be fine.

Its a shame that Revit server doesn't do anything to help those working from home. Having spent the last three weekends working and doing the occasional two hour save to central from home I wish the feature was a bit more like ArchiCAD's solution!

Were trying "an experiment" with having Revit Server running.... On a Windows 7 machine thats not a server. Were having... some success. The idea being just that. Each workstation becomes the Local server.

robert.manna

2010-10-02, 02:21 AM

Hi folks, so I read through the thread, here are my bullet points for you, some things will be repeated, but it seemed easier. We've had RS in production for almost 4 weeks now (sorry for all the acronyms, too many words to type):

MSFT Server 2008 only, no 2003, and R2 is not officially supported, nor is Windows 7. Translation, it may work in both cases but don't bother talking to the guys who run The Revit Clinic blog if it breaks, or your files get corrupted.
Virtual Servers also not supported, once again, don't call the boys at TRC. That said RS is all about moving data and consuming bandwidth. By their nature VM's are sharing resouces, in particular bandwidth. Consider these things when making your decisions. At the very least VM is probably a good way to do some basic testing/familiarization.
Wan Acceleration, not required but doesn't hurt
In "File Based Worksharing" Revit moves the data using Microsoft File Transfer Protocol, its very chatty, and that is were the problem lies when using FBW across a WAN. RS uses TCP/IP, much cleaner and way less chatty.
Linked files, DWG, RVT etc. can all still live on files servers just fine. Revit (your application) will resolve paths to files on RS, UNC or drive letters without any problems. If you have WAN acceleration in place performance should be fine. In production we have three offices, linked files are stored on a file server in the same office as the Central Server, no complaints from end users.

In production we also have people using RGS in conjunction with RS, I believe there is a place for both solutions, Remote Computing and Server/Client software/file management. Will it help a single office firm? Maybe... depends on how many users and how big your projects are. At the very least the permissions locking and TCP/IP provide better stability and better response time. Will user's notice that TCP/IP is faster on a LAN? Probably not, testing shows that above 100ms of Latency is where users start to notice a slow down. What I like to point out about RS is, outside of perhaps 300ms+ latency you probably don't have to "worry". Your users may not have the best experience or have an even better one, but either way your central file won't be corrupted either.

HTH,
-R

Joef

2010-10-02, 02:51 PM

Has anyone not posted about this yet? Evidently Autodesk is going to release a new app that will allow better WAN collaboration with Revit models. It's a server-side app that will manage transactions across LANs and WANs.

This is huge.

Huge? It is a huge yawn.

Wes Macaulay

2010-10-04, 07:11 PM

Joef

2010-10-05, 04:29 AM

For firms that have multiple offices using Revit, distributed authoring of Revit projects (sharing the single file) is now possible, and this functionality will likely be given more attention over time.

This means Revit can be also be used on joint ventures, which up till now, wasn't an easy task :beer:

I get all that but it is still of little or no value to me. I was hoping for something useful. I pay the same subscription fee as a large firm.

Scott Womack

2010-10-05, 09:49 AM

I get all that but it is still of little or no value to me. I was hoping for something useful. I pay the same subscription fee as a large firm.

Quite True, but then the tools relating to wood framing were of absolutely no use to almost any size firm doing commercial work (in North America) since 95% of that work is done with metal studs. Personally, I have only been working with Structural firms that use Revit for the last 3 1/2 years, so the Truss tool in Revit Architecture was a Yawn as well.

Subscription is (supposed to be) a lot more than just some new tools once a year. I don't know how Autodesk is supposed to please everyone all the time. Some only want rendering enhancements, some only want family enhancements, and others only want API improvements. Just running something down does nothing more than make you feel good. I doubt that it really helps the process.

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 01:04 PM

Thanks, Scott.

Can you try to answer the rest of the question(s) as well?

cheers

Scott D Davis

2010-10-05, 03:40 PM

If so, how soon will Win Server 2008 64 R2 be supported?

I have no idea. I will see what I can find out.

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 03:46 PM

I'd like someone (preferably Robert M, David Light, or someone from Adesk with the real inside scoop)
to verify very definitely:

Will Revit Server ONLY work with Windows Server 2008 64 bit ( not R2 ) ?
Not Win Server 2003 32 bit, or Win Server 2008 32 bit, etc.

If so, how soon will Win Server 2008 64 R2 be supported?

This is a major problem as our remote offices are Win Server 2008 64 R2 and I don't think
you can "downgrade" them ( and we wouldn't want to anyway even if you could.)

We would like to begin using Revit Server right away, but need answers before implementing it.

cheers

**edit** We understand that only one office's server hosts the Revit Server
component. It's still a problem, however because of the "not R2" issue.

Scott might be able to dig up a more "official" response then what I posted, but I'm not sure you'll get much. In some ways I probably said more then what you can expect from ADSK.....

That said, I saw your edit Cliff, not sure I follow. At minimum you need a piece of server hardware acting as the Central Server running the server application, this would typically be located either where the majority of your anticipated user base is, or the hub of your IT operations. After that one would expect that in a multi-office firm you would be running Local Servers in each office. The local server also needs to run on server hardware and is running the same application as the "Central Server" the difference being the environment variable is set to "Local" and the Local Server looks to the Central Server for data.

HTH,
-R

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 03:50 PM

re: the issue of MSFT Server 2008 R2.

All I can add in addition is that ADSK is quite aware that many people are interested in support for R2.

In the long run the changes made to make RS work are of a benefit to anyone using worksharing.

I'm out, unless more specific questions come up that I can answer about current production and implementation.

ron.sanpedro

2010-10-05, 04:01 PM

In the long run the changes made to make RS work are of a benefit to anyone using worksharing.

Robert, does this mean that Revit in a non Revit Server configuration is now using HTTP not the chatty microsoft protocol previous versions have used? Or that without Revit Server we get the "bucket of files" rather than a monolithic Central file?
I can see where this would be beneficial to all if one of those technologies was present, or if we could just connect to the Revit Central Server directly and thus see those benefits. But short of that, I am not seeing how there can be any benefit now. Maybe some day in the future, perhaps when Revit can act as it's own Local Server or something. Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Gordon

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 04:03 PM

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 04:10 PM

Scott/Robert:

Thanks for replies--I still need clarification:

Revit Server will/will not work on:

Windows Server 2003, 32 bit?
Windows Server 2008, 32 bit

I assume it ONLY works on:

Windows Server 2008, 64 bit ( NOT R2 )

cheers

Cliff I'm not trying to dance around your question hopefully Scott can get some more specifics on this. I think the question to ask is "can it be installed?" not "does it work?"

For instance I'm fairly certain that you can install on R2, but no one is going to stick their neck out and tell you if it will work.

I do not believe it is backwards compatible to 2003 due to IIS version and features in 2008.

I believe it may only be coded for 64bit, not 32 so as to take better advantage of multi-threading and what RAM RS does use.

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 04:16 PM

Robert, does this mean that Revit in a non Revit Server configuration is now using HTTP not the chatty microsoft protocol previous versions have used? Or that without Revit Server we get the "bucket of files" rather than a monolithic Central file?
I can see where this would be beneficial to all if one of those technologies was present, or if we could just connect to the Revit Central Server directly and thus see those benefits. But short of that, I am not seeing how there can be any benefit now. Maybe some day in the future, perhaps when Revit can act as it's own Local Server or something. Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Gordon

Gordon,

my comments were an oblique reference to Joef's comments. There are no changes to File Based Worksharing (FBW) at this time. To take advantage of TCP/IP and the permissions database you would need to use Revit Server at this time. That said, one can imagine that in the future RS technology could supplant current FBW, what form this takes I don't know, because certainly a small shop does not want (or need) the overhead of having to run a Central Server, that would be crazy.... Then you have Aaron's firm playing with trying to get RS to run on Win7, so I can imagine a situation where perhaps FBW because a "self-encapsulated" RS somehow...? Maybe you have to have IIS on your file server, but you don't need RS running, because the central file simply "plugs-in" to IIS as needed. Or perhaps they can migrate to TCP/IP without affecting other aspects of FBW. I honestly don't know. The point being RS is a proving ground at this point for new technology while also solving an immediate need for multi-office companies. This is no different to the new massing tools from 2010 being a proving ground for more complex geometry creation, that then leads to the development of cable tray, oval duct, conduit, and who knows what else in the future....? So, people's money is at work, you just have to take the long view sometimes. Scott's example of the framing tools is a good one IMHO.

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 06:17 PM

Cliff I'm not trying to dance around your question hopefully Scott can get some more specifics on this. I think the question to ask is "can it be installed?" not "does it work?"

For instance I'm fairly certain that you can install on R2, but no one is going to stick their neck out and tell you if it will work.

I do not believe it is backwards compatible to 2003 due to IIS version and features in 2008.

I believe it may only be coded for 64bit, not 32 so as to take better advantage of multi-threading and what RAM RS does use.

OK--I'm getting closer to the "answer".

FWIW--It's fairly pointless to "install" software if it doesn't "work" in the OS you are running--which is why I used the word "work"--perhaps "have full functionality after being installed" would make it crystal clear? LOL

I appreciate your responses--I'd prefer if it came from Adesk to save you the time and energy!

cheers

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 06:30 PM

@Cliff,

I guess it all depends on how daring are you....? If it will install on R2, I guess I would first do some testing. You'll know if it "works" at a basic level fairly quickly, that much I'm pretty sure of. Then maybe roll a small project, maybe the project does not even actually need to be in RS, but it makes a good test case. Once again it may work, but if for some reason it doesn't work, then you can try calling ADSK support, and they may even attempt to help you, but if they determine the issue is with R2, then all bets are off.

The good news is that if you put a project in RS its not "trapped" as long as you have a local file, you can always save it as a Central File on your file server and go back to using FBW. Of course if this happens halfway through a project you might have to repath some links and stuff, but still not the end of the world.

If it were me, I would at least try it, particularly if there were a definite need. If you already have the hardware, and the OS you have nothing to loose by trying except possibly a few hours of labor (if you test in production) and whatever time you sink into the testing. Autodesk likes to have "declaratives" to protect themselves, but at the same time, they usually try to help you as much as they can (at least in my experience).

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 07:37 PM

Here's the latest from Adesk:

http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/Autodesk-Revit-Architecture/Revit-Server-specs/td-p/2784768

cheers

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 07:43 PM

Jailbreaking an IPhone is not supported either, but people still do it.... I think my earlier point still stands. If you must live by Autodesk's official line, the answer is simple for you, you're stuck, lest you have a spare piece of hardware to throw plain jane 2008 onto. If you're willing to live on the edge, it might work. :veryevil:

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 07:52 PM

We will "play it safe" and get a Windows Server 2008 64 bit ( not R2 ) box up and running
at one office and give it a try.

cheers

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 07:58 PM

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 08:04 PM

We were thinking of a setup like this.

Do the "local servers" also have to be ONLY Win Server 2008 64 ( not R2 ? )

Or only the "Central Server" ?

see attached diagram.

cheers

twiceroadsfool

2010-10-05, 09:03 PM

They ALL have to be Windows Server 2008-64 (NON R2), if youre talking about "officially supported configurations."

They havent even been ambiguous about it :)

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 09:13 PM

OK--

I wonder how many offices are actually set up to that EXACT server arrangement?

I doubt very many. R2 has been around for quite some time already.

Then again, a lot of offices are unfortunately still using Server 2003--but I suspect not many
with "in-between" setups with Win Server 2008 ( not R2 )...........???

I guess if we "feel frisky" as Robert alludes to, we can "experiment"
with non-approved setups and see how it goes........LOL

Not the best way of operating a business, IMHO.

cheers

ron.sanpedro

2010-10-05, 09:14 PM

Well, you will need at least two servers to really "try" it. I mean, it will work in one office, using one server, you can save files to it, etc. But without a second server, you won't get a chance to see what it does for you across your WAN.

Robert, does that mean that one could indeed just run the Central Server in a single office LAN situation? Sync w/ Central is a pig for everyone thanks to the underlying MS tech. Being able to get some mileage without any WAN/Remote Office/Partner firm situation would be grand.

Gordon

twiceroadsfool

2010-10-05, 09:16 PM

Its no different than Video Cards. <shrug> They support what they support, and we all do what we all have to do. Like someone else mentioned, i dont find any use for the Truss add on, or the Wall framing add on, but many people might. Theyre not "lousy tools" because i dont have a need or use for them, theyre just not tools i'll use.

Revit Server is no different. We- and many others- will find a tremendous use for them. Im sure many wont. If you wont, i imagine you wont use it? :)

robert.manna

2010-10-05, 09:21 PM

Well, I think Autodesk's current vision is that most companies would have dedicated boxes for Revit Server, in which case the exact OS is somewhat immaterial as long as it can join your domain. There are no shares or user permissions to be managed outside of possibly linking IIS with AD in order to limit access to RAdmin, however you could simply manage that security from IIS. I don't think you would want to be using the same instance of IIS for your company intranet and RS either, so if you are using IIS for other stuff, you probably want a stand-alone instance for RS too. If you are looking to run RS on an existing file server, or some other box, then yeah that is problem. I'm assuming you've already seen the blog posts and comments that specifically say you really, really don't want to be running RS on your Exchange Server or some other high traffic box, in our case, I would likely consider a File Server high traffic too. The specs for RS are so low, that if you really needed to you could take a couple of decent spare workstations and throw RS on them at least for the purposes of testing, experimentation and some production work. Easier to start small and upgrade is my theory. The Server app footprint is tiny and integration is relatively straightforward, so upgrading hardware should not be a big deal in the long run, particularly since you could build out a new box as a "local" and convert it a central and take old server off-line.

cliff collins

2010-10-05, 09:25 PM

Aaron,

Revit Server is TOTALLY different, as it affects several offices and the IT infrastructure for each office.

Truss Tools and Framing add-ins can come or go--like extras, but collaborating with multiple offices is a prerequisite requirement, and should be set up to "work" (sorry Robert I said it again) with a reasonable range of common server setups.

I am all for using the latest tools, especially Revit Server--as it will add value and can improve the business. I just wish the hardware requirements were a bit more flexible,
and I'll bet I'm not the only one wishing this.

cheers

twiceroadsfool

2010-10-05, 09:36 PM

Aaron,

Revit Server is TOTALLY different, as it affects several offices and the IT infrastructure for each office.

Uh, i know... Obviously, but the premise about what is SUPPORTED is the same: Right now certain versions arent supported. So yeah, maybe a lot of offices arent using that "particular" configuration. But do you remember the sticker shock when we all "got in to 3D modeling" and realized our workstation specs had to quadruple? Maybe we all shouldve waited for Revit to run on a 200 dollar 10 year old machine. :)

Truss Tools and Framing add-ins can come or go--like extras, but collaborating with multiple offices is a prerequisite requirement, and should be set up to "work" (sorry Robert I said it again) with a reasonable range of common server setups.

It works now without Revit Server. Its just.... slower. :)

I am all for using the latest tools, especially Revit Server--as it will add value and can improve the business. I just wish the hardware requirements were a bit more flexible,
and I'll bet I'm not the only one wishing this.

Im not saying youre the only one. I wish it worked on R2 as well. I also wish Revit Cloud was available, and in that pipe dream it might even have your TiltaWall tool, and the dimUzi. But i work with whats available. :)

[\QUOTE]

I'm assuming you've already seen the blog posts and comments that specifically say you really, really don't want to be running RS on your Exchange Server or some other high traffic box, in our case, I would likely consider a File Server high traffic too. The specs for RS are so low, that if you really needed to you could take a couple of decent spare workstations and throw RS on them at least for the purposes of testing, experimentation and some production work. Easier to start small and upgrade is my theory.

Thats what weve done thus far, amongst some other tests. Either way (r2 or no r2) were very excited to make good use of it. And im excited by the "wax-poetic future potential" of what it COULD mean down the road....

Joef

2010-10-06, 12:47 AM

Quite True, but then the tools relating to wood framing were of absolutely no use to almost any size firm doing commercial work (in North America) since 95% of that work is done with metal studs. Personally, I have only been working with Structural firms that use Revit for the last 3 1/2 years, so the Truss tool in Revit Architecture was a Yawn as well.

Subscription is (supposed to be) a lot more than just some new tools once a year. I don't know how Autodesk is supposed to please everyone all the time. Some only want rendering enhancements, some only want family enhancements, and others only want API improvements. Just running something down does nothing more than make you feel good. I doubt that it really helps the process.

I don't recall running anything down, I was just expressing my disappointment. I had no idea what the subscription pack was going to include, so when I realized it had zero value for me, I was not that happy. I understand that some people are probably going to get tons of value out of this feature and that it will save them money and enhance their business. That's great for them.

By the way, if you can find anyone who is actually using that wood framing add on I would be very surprised. It was a nice thought though...

iru69

2010-10-06, 01:41 AM

Joef, I very much agree with your sentiment about getting the shaft yet again (and yes, 95% of residential architects couldn't care less about the wood framing tools either)... but this just doesn't seem like the thread to be criticizing the subscription value? Kind of seems like a thread dedicated to Revit BIM Server?

I don't recall running anything down, I was just expressing my disappointment...

Joef

2010-10-06, 03:12 AM

Scott Womack

2010-10-07, 10:02 AM

We do do a lot of collaboration with other architectural firms across the US. Although we have been successfully using Riverbed, this is intriguing enough to look into. The comments I've read about there still needing to be a substantial amount of bandwidth required, will still end up being an issue with some firms.

Well, I wasn't intending to run the subscription value down. I certainly don't feel that way. I simply tried to point out that they cannot please everyone all the time.

robert.manna

2010-10-07, 12:56 PM

The comments I've read about there still needing to be a substantial amount of bandwidth required, will still end up being an issue with some firms.

Bandwidth is not so much the issue as latency. Certainly more bandwidth can help to some extent, but it is the latency between locations which impacts the end user's experience more so then the amount of bandwidth available. This is not to say that Revit Server is not happy to have more, just that the time it takes for the data to move tends to affect things more then how much data can be moved at any one time.

ahauck

2010-10-08, 08:54 PM

Bandwidth is not so much the issue as latency. Certainly more bandwidth can help to some extent, but it is the latency between locations which impacts the end user's experience more so then the amount of bandwidth available. This is not to say that Revit Server is not happy to have more, just that the time it takes for the data to move tends to affect things more then how much data can be moved at any one time.

Hi folks.

First, a big thanks to Robert for sharing all his experience in working with Revit Server.
To help out with the "official word" on some of the items Robert has ably covered:

Revit Central and Local Servers are currently supported only for Windows Server 2008 64-bit. The reason for this limitation is that we have not yet tested RS with WS 2008 R2. At one point in development we had to select the technology environment to begin testing, and R2 was not available at that time. However, the message from all testers and this group is clear, and R2 support is a top priority for the team.

Virtualization is also not currently supported, but again the request for virtualization support is clear and consistent, and I've asked the team to make that a high priority right behind R2 support.

To Gordon's question earlier about whether RS will help the single office situation, at a low technical level the answer is "yes", but LAN latency is so low (approaching zero) that humans probably wouldn't notice a difference in data or element borrowing. So, while it may speed up, no one on the LAN would know it happened. Personally, I wouldn't think it worth the trouble, because data transfer on the LAN is a small minority of SWC time. Most of that time is pent reconcliling one user's changes with those of all the other users.

Thanks,
Anthony

Anthony A. Hauck
Revit Senior Product Line Manager

Wes Macaulay

2010-10-08, 09:15 PM

robert.manna

2010-10-08, 09:42 PM

Wes,

I agree with you from a theoretical point of view, however I also agree with Anthony. Its just not there yet. I actually hope to see FBW re-vamped with some of what they've put into RS, so that a single office firm does not have to worry about installing a Revit Server, just to take advantage of what it offers. Just today, we had a lock hang on a user when they were SWC'ing, and no one lost any work! The user re-SWC'ed, then everyone else was able to SWC to. If it had "hung" in FBW the central would have been toast, and everyone would have lost their work. The same situation can easily happen on a large project in single office.

ahauck

2010-10-10, 09:50 PM

I had been wondering if Revit Server would also manage transactions on a LAN between local users and the central file: preventing corruption and some of the weird errors that tend to pop up on the larger jobs...

Also, there's a lot of us on Server 2003 and I get the sense that WS 2003 isn't supported nor will it ever be. Which is fine - someday we'll update our ye olde Server which is still running really well ;)

Hi Wes.

I will say this: if you're experiencing a significant amounr of corruption over your LAN, there are reasons to believe that Revit Server might mitigate that problem. Specificially, file-based worksharing is somewhat dependent on low connection latency.

One could imagine a number of large downloads, video streaming, VOIP, or other bandwidth-intensive operations increasing the effective latency between the Revit user and the central file and perhaps introducing some issues with the underlying file save technology.

Revit Server uses TCP to transfer data, which is fast and robust across a wide range of latency and network-load situations. Although I can't speak with complete authority without some stress tests directly comparing the two methods of worksharing for corruption avoidance during adverse network events, logic does urge me to think that a protocol designed for data integrity during network data transfers will likely decrease the likelihood of data corruption compared with an ordinary file save method.

With that said, one might also examine the network infrastructure first, to see if some hardware in the user-to-central file chain has gone flaky, or become in some manner physically degraded. Such assurance that a network is operating at peak efficiency would undoubtedly pay dividends beyond the use of Revit.

Cheers,
Anthony

Anthony A. Hauck
Revit Senior Product Line Manager

jstadler.79244

2010-10-11, 06:41 PM

I understand that there are many that do not have the hardware to implement this yet, however is there anyone that have done any testing in real world conditions?

robert.manna

2010-10-11, 06:43 PM

We have been in production since early September with one project team that has four central models in Revit Server.

jstadler.79244

2010-10-11, 07:13 PM

We have been in production since early September with one project team that has four central models in Revit Server.

From the Augi posts, it seems that your firm is the only that have tried this. Surprising that not more have tried this.

robert.manna

2010-10-11, 07:18 PM

Well, considering it only really hit the street about two weeks ago, I'm not surprised. I know others tested but to my knowledge no one else has executed in production. It works, and we're happy so far. For the first time we had a real "hang" last week on a user's SWC. However the great news is, no one lost work! Everyone was eventually able to SWC after that user closed, re-opened and SWC'ed again. The biggest problem was they had left for lunch!!! :)

hermeytheelf

2010-10-12, 06:27 PM

Still wondering what the specs should be for Central Servers (and Local Servers for that matter) . Baselines for processor, RAM, Storage, connection speed etc that are related to expected use. 'Number of models' I think would be too vague. Probably something based on total GB of models, # of Local Servers that are hitting the Central server etc.

There are pretty detailed HW specs for plain old Revit that help IT make decisions on workstation specs. We need something similar for Revit Servers. This was discussed on the Beta forums but I have yet to find any results.

Thanks!

Steve_Stafford

2010-10-12, 08:45 PM

If your server meets the specs you mention then you are fine. The issue is more the dedication of a server to Revit project files. Depending how literal you wish to be you could decide that means that the only thing the server does is server Revit project files. Autodesk isn't that literal but no VOIP, FTP, email, internet services or other large bandwidth file services should be also using the server.

hermeytheelf

2010-10-12, 08:55 PM

If your server meets the specs you mention then you are fine.

That's just the thing, there are not any specs to be found. Unless you are talking about my mention of the System Requirements for plain-jane Revit: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=12431819
I don't imagine those are going to cut it for a Revit Central Server setup.
We are a large firm that could potentially have dozens of Revit models over 200MB each with at least a dozen Revit Local Servers and triple digit numbers of people accessing the models every day. I personally don't know how to spec. a server and our corporate IT is looking for some sort of baseline.

cliff collins

2010-10-12, 09:05 PM

Well, we DO know they are supposed to be Windows Server 2008 64 bit ( not R2 ).

Then, based on your scope of projects and file size approximations, you could bet on
a decent RAID setup with fast SAS drives and plenty of storage--in the terabyte range
perhaps, if you need some future growth built in.

Then count on plenty of RAM--12-16 GB would be good, and 64 bit will support this.

CPUs should probably be quad Xeons, with fast front side bus speed. Perhaps (2) ?

More importantly, the pipe that the Revit changes are being pushed thru must have as little latency as possible. Thus WAN accelleration ( Riverbeds, etc. ) will help and apparently can be used in-line to "warm up" the file then see only bit-level deltas after warm up, thus reducing latency problems when STC across the WAN.

Just my 2 c worth. I agree it would be good to have some official Adesk specs for servers.

cheers

Steve_Stafford

2010-10-12, 09:32 PM

hermeytheelf

2010-10-12, 11:25 PM

If we assume for a moment that you are currently using a server for Revit projects then Revit Server doesn't increase or decrease the physical attributes of that server. It does have specific operating system requirements and a few other services but no additional requirements for the software to work on the server itself.
We have 25 offices, each using their own file server to store Revit models. Our concerns lie in taking 25 offices worth of BIG Revit models and put them on ONE server. That is massive amounts of data moving in and out of an electronic box. I can't imagine that the only differences between a current office server and a Revit Central Server would be the minor configuration changes that are required.

The server isn't running Revit, just improving the data transactions between computers.

Server and EyeTee recommendation/specifications for implementing Revit would be a good thing in general.
In a perfect world, people would only be accessing models in their own office. Obviously that doesn't happen so we are REALLY hoping that Revit Sever woks well enough. We already know from basic testing that it works better than woking on a local copy across the WAN (duh :-))
We have Riverbed WAN accelerators in all offices
We have used Remote Desktop with workstations, HP RGS with workstations, HP RGS on blades and have not had satisfactory results.

We just really, really, really want this to work well and not undersell the hardware requirements.

Steve_Stafford

2010-10-12, 11:52 PM

My first concern while at Autodesk and listening to the explanations was what you described, the notion of putting all the projects on ONE server. What may not be obvious is that it isn't necessary to put your entire company's projects on one server. Autodesk needs to expand on this more so that what you are describing doesn't become a whole "nuther" problem.

The essence of it is that you install Revit Server on a server computer. The projects that are associated with that server are only available to users when they specify that server as the Revit Server they want to connect to. You can have multiple Revit Servers with different projects. You can't have multiple Revit Servers with the same projects.

If we take a few of your 25 offices and I'll pretend I know which cities they are in...

Houston, Dallas and Omaha are collaborating on a project. Dallas has the bulk of the team so the Revit Server is established in their office. The Revit Server Administrator software is used to define that project in Dallas. Houston and Omaha users choose the Dallas Revit Server IP address when connecting to Revit Server. They collaborate with Dallas.

Meanwhile Washington DC, Chicago and Atlanta are involved in a different project and Atlanta takes the lead based on staff and management majority rule. Same process is established except users supply the IP address for the Atlanta office Revit Server instead.

If a Dallas team member gets involved with Atlanta's project they specify the Atlanta Revit Server IP instead so they can access their project rather than their own project server.

Does this help a little?

hermeytheelf

2010-10-13, 12:03 AM

If a Dallas team member gets involved with Atlanta's project they specify the Atlanta Revit Server IP instead so they can access their project rather than their own project server.

Does this help a little?

Excellent scenario! Our understanding thusfar from Autodesk is that a Local Server cannot connect to more than one Central Server. If this is not true then Autodesk seriously needs to update their documentation on this!!!
When I first heard about this being in Beta, I drew up a map that showed regional Central Servers in key offices. All other offices would have Local Servers. This was dismissed when we learned more about how Revit Server works but now maybe it is worth reopening?

robert.manna

2010-10-13, 03:18 AM

First, here are the minimum specs I would start with, will this run 100 projects? Probably not, 50? maybe, no one really knows:

2GHz processor or better with at least 2 cores of processing power
4GB of memory minimum
7200 RPM Hard drive with min 3.0 Gb/s transfer speed.
Server-class (gigabit Ethernet or better) networking.

We're running converted workstations that meet the specs (sans being server grade hardware), they actually have 8gb of RAM.

RAM is not particularly important because there is nothing to cache in RAM unless you're going to cache all of the data for each model, which is not realistic. There is no predictive way to "know" what model data might be needed "next" and pre-cache it in RAM prior to a call from a user. Storage space and performance and CPU are probably the most critical. I think its fair to assume that most people are running Gigabit if not fiber to their servers from their switches.

Second, in no way would I ever suggest a firm should put all their data in this version of Revit Server. In its current form it resolves a very specific problem, collaboration between different geographical locations on the same WAN in the same Revit models.

Third, Steve and hermeytheelf are both "correct". Revit Server is not a mesh, its a hub and spoke. A single local server can only connect to a single central server. However, there is nothing to stop you from setting up several networks, particularly if you have 25 offices and they do not all collaborate together. If certain offices collaborate more often with each other, you could set-up server networks to serve those offices together. Of course there could end up being overlap in some offices that collaborate with many different offices. In the case of overlap, a user can choose from Revit which local server (ie which network) to connect to, since you can only be connected to one server at once, you cannot cross link models between two Revit Server networks. However, you can store non workshared files on file servers and they can be linked to Revit Server models or vice versus.

In the long run a controlled mesh would be far more useful, more fault tolerant, and easier to use, but that is not where we are right now.

HTH,
-R

super_homeboy

2010-10-14, 08:42 AM

How can I restrict access to the central server? (not IIS)

Question 1:
If someone installs a local server and connects with my central server all my data will be accessable...

Question 2:
How can I restrict access on a project level on the central server?

A normal scenario will be:
Project A will start with participants X, Y and Z
Project B will start with participants S, T and Y
Project C will start with participants G, X and Z

I can't imagine that I'll have to install mulitple servers to host central file(s) for each project...

robert.manna

2010-10-14, 12:55 PM

Question 1:
If someone installs a local server and connects with my central server all my data will be accessable...

The Central Server and the local servers pointed at the central server must all be within your domain. Unless you don't trust people within your organization I don't see where this is a problem. If your clients have security concerns, I can see where that might be an issue. In any case no one is going to randomly set-up a local server and connect it to your central server. While Revit Server does use IIS I personally would not recommend running RS on the same IIS instance that is also running your website or other web services for a host of reasons, starting with security and performance.

Question 2:
How can I restrict access on a project level on the central server?

A normal scenario will be:
Project A will start with participants X, Y and Z
Project B will start with participants S, T and Y
Project C will start with participants G, X and Z

At this time you cannot restrict project access on RS. Any Revit user who browses to the RS network they are connected to will see all Revit central files stored in the Revit Server network. They can also cut local files of any of those central files. However no users can delete files from Revit, nor can a Central File be directly overwritten with a "Save as". Files must be deleted from the Revit Server Admin console, whose access can be restricted with IIS group security policy which I believe can be integrated with Active Directory.

I hope this answers your questions,
-R

super_homeboy

2010-10-14, 02:29 PM

* note, I'm not a systems administrator

The Central Server and the local servers pointed at the central server must all be within your domain.
Of course the local server is trusted and accessable to the people within our organization.
The central server is not part of the local domain, it is hosted on another location. In order to collaborate with others... that's the point of RS isn't it?

Because the central server is remotely accessable it's a security risk. If I can't lock down the application within RS so that other random local servers can connect then this software won't be implemented. No access control == no use

At this time you cannot restrict project access on RS. Any Revit user who browses to the RS network they are connected to will see all Revit central files stored in the Revit Server network. They can also cut local files of any of those central files. However no users can delete files from Revit, nor can a Central File be directly overwritten with a "Save as". Files must be deleted from the Revit Server Admin console, whose access can be restricted with IIS group security policy which I believe can be integrated with Active Directory.
Restricting access within IIS wasn't a problem. (well documented)
Everybody can access every file within a central file, can cut files, all without the ability of revisions, comparing, merging, etc.
In a "normal" project environment people work together, like in software projects, this would be acceptable. If a user updates a file with garbage the information will be lost...

Will there be an update that fixes these problems?

I hope this answers your questions,
-R
Not the answer I was hoping for, but thanks for the quick response!

robert.manna

2010-10-14, 02:58 PM

Because the central server is remotely accessable it's a security risk. If I can't lock down the application within RS so that other random local servers can connect then this software won't be implemented. No access control == no use

This is in-correct. Your firm controls and deploys your central server. It does not exist in a "cloud". Central servers reside behind your firm's firewall with no access from users outside of your firm. The only way to achieve direct collaborative access between two firms would be to establish a trusted domain between the two firms with a secure VPN connection between the two WANs. If the two firms have taken that big of a leap, then other trust issues are likely not to be a big deal.

If you absolutely had to, for instance due to security restrictions imposed by a client you could customize VLANs on your managed switches to only allow access by certain users's computers to certain IP's on the network (ie your Local & Central servers).

Everybody can access every file within a central file, can cut files, all without the ability of revisions, comparing, merging, etc.
In a "normal" project environment people work together, like in software projects, this would be acceptable. If a user updates a file with garbage the information will be lost...

Will there be an update that fixes these problems?

Given that at this time RS is meant to be an internal solution for a firm with multiple offices, the workflow in terms of working in Revit is no different then how you work in Revit now when you have a Central File on your file server. RS is a platform that enables multi-office collaboration, it is not currently a solution for team dynamics.

I don't work for Autodesk and I don't know the future, however given that RS is built on top of web technologies, ie TCP/IP and IIS, it is not hard to imagine that in the long term it can be used to help with multiple companies working together via the internet.

That said, I think it is important to distinguish a few things. In its current form Revit Server is all about enabling data transfer, it does nothing to affect how users work in Revit. RS was developed outside of worksharing which is what enables users and teams to collaborate. If your concerns are centered on managing how users work together, how data is controlled and accessed then you really need to be talking about the development of worksharing and worksets. In the world of Revit the ability to move data versus how users interact with the data are two very different things, both programmatically and even in terms of the responsibility for software development. Undoubtedly the two are related, since as we gain greater ability to share the data among different constituents, we will desire more ability to control who can access what. In reality though, they really are two different problem sets that are interrelated from a usability point of of view but not necessarily dependent on each other from a technology or software development point of view.

super_homeboy

2010-10-15, 01:49 PM

As stated in the autodesk Wiki (http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/Product_Help/Revit_Architecture/Large_Team_Workflow) it's all about connecting local servers with a central server through a WAN (aka a server in the "cloud"). Currently 1 local server connects to 1 central server, thus limiting the ability to scale.

The essence of a BIM is collaboration with external participants, not only within a company (like http://bimserver.org/about/). A VPN setup between two companies would have been sufficient in previous versions with a network shared central file, without a local/central server architecture.

Within the current limitations, I'll research the possibility to connect two Microsoft Servers to a common domain or setting firewall rules, excluding others and thus securing the access.
From a management point of view this is going to be a nightmare. Just imagine >700 project per year with different participants.... Setting up 3 projects per day, maintenance?

Thank you for explaining Robert. I'll keep monitoring the Autodesk Subscription pages for updates and fixes.

ron.sanpedro

2010-10-19, 05:46 PM

So here is an interesting thought, at least to me. If indeed Revit Server can be virtualized, and if indeed the performance impact of Revit Server is based on number of users and size of file, might we not be able to put a VM on a laptop running a Local Revit Server, and have Revit that is also running on that laptop access that local server, and now a laptop on the job site is a self contained satellite office.
Of course the utterly craptastic licensing for Windows Server would come into play, but if technically possible maybe Autodesk could do the right thing by their customers and make Revit Server work on Windows 7 as well, at least for this kind of single connection, minimal throughput scenario. I doubt there is really anything in Windows Server that is required by Revit Server, with the exception of large concurrent connection counts, and in this scenario that doesn't apply. Perhaps a flavor called Revit Remote Server that supports a workstation OS instead? Of course at that point perhaps there isn't even a need for a VM, you just run the Local Server right on the laptop.

Gordon

twiceroadsfool

2010-10-19, 10:42 PM

Thats exactly the scanario were... playing with. :)

jhood.130135

2010-10-26, 03:49 AM

...
Of course the utterly craptastic licensing for Windows Server would come into play, but if technically possible maybe Autodesk could do the right thing by their customers and make Revit Server work on Windows 7 as well, at least for this kind of single connection, minimal throughput scenario..

Gordon

If you're going to spend time with Windows 7, be aware of the 10 connection limit (one computer connecting might use eight of those ten connections). You may as well run a copy of Windows 2008 x64 for 30 days to try things out.

jhood.130135

2010-10-27, 07:18 PM

At a minimum, we need three servers?

robert.manna

2010-10-27, 07:33 PM

At a minimum, we need three servers?

There is no "minimum" nor is there and theoretically there is no maximum. RS will work with one server, but that would sorta defeat the purpose of multiple offices working together. But you could do as few as two, one Central Server and one Local Server.

jhood.130135

2010-10-27, 08:05 PM

Good, that was my question. I have two offices, hence I only need two boxes and I wasn't sure RS handled the duties of RS as well as a Local Server.

robert.manna

2010-10-27, 09:12 PM

You've got it right.

dbaldacchino

2011-04-24, 08:03 PM

If you're going to spend time with Windows 7, be aware of the 10 connection limit (one computer connecting might use eight of those ten connections). You may as well run a copy of Windows 2008 x64 for 30 days to try things out.

According to a knowledgeable guy that I trust (he might be wrong but I highly doubt it), there is really no such limit that you speak of when it comes to how Revit Server is running. Which means that with RS running on desktops with Windows 7 (we're doing it...head to my blog for more info.), we should not have such limitation. Obviously the larger the amount of users and the number & size of projects, the busier the machines will get, and at some point they'll need an upgrade.

If Revit Server is using the machine as a web server and moving bits of data via the TCP/IP protocol, then that connection limit does not come into play. It's not like you're sharing a resource on that computer (ex: C: drive) and only 10 users can connect to it. You can easily run your website off your desktop machine by enabling IIS and turn it into a web-server for example. That doesn't mean that only 10 people at a time can connect to it...same applies to the Revit Server scenario.

diggyblue

2011-05-19, 08:57 PM

So it seems this thread is mainly over my head, but I am going to give this a try anyways. I am working to help a firm transition from AutoCad to Revit. The IT department has installed a Central Revit Server and a Local Revit Server. With my research I am not sure if we actually need to use these on every project. Here are my questions:

It is my understanding that these Servers are mainly used to support inter-office file sharing. Is this true?

If a file is only going to be shared by members who come to work in this building, then that file does not need to be on a Revit Server? Is that true?

I understand that if you place a file on a Revit Server, replacing the file, or archiving the file would require administrator access. Is that true?

Finally, a simply technical question: The IT department states that the Servers are each up and running, no problem there. But, in Revit 2012, I can not see the servers listed in any of the places I have read I am supposed to. What do I need to do to finish this connection? Apparently this is my job?

Thanks in advance for any answers!

~Megan

robert.manna

2011-05-20, 02:16 AM

It is my understanding that these Servers are mainly used to support inter-office file sharing. Is this true?

If a file is only going to be shared by members who come to work in this building, then that file does not need to be on a Revit Server? Is that true?

Yes, Revit Server is primarily intended for working between geographically separated team members, not team members on the same local network (ie under the same roof). The general expectation is that users who are on the same local network (under one roof) can store their central files on a typical file server. The act and features of "Worksharing" are the same regardless of if you are storing your Central Files on a File Server or within a Revit Server infrastructure.

I understand that if you place a file on a Revit Server, replacing the file, or archiving the file would require administrator access. Is that true?

Not completely. When Central Files are stored in Revit Server they can only be deleted through the Revit Server Administrator console (web page). Unless you use Internet Information Services (IIS) Group Security features to limit access to the admin console, anyone can technically access the console to delete files. However they would need the URL in order to get there.

"Archiving" can be simply achieved by any user choosing to "detach from central" when they browse to the Central File. They can then save the file that opens to a location on the file server and create an "archive" file that has been completely detached from your active Central File.

Finally, a simply technical question: The IT department states that the Servers are each up and running, no problem there. But, in Revit 2012, I can not see the servers listed in any of the places I have read I am supposed to. What do I need to do to finish this connection? Apparently this is my job?

Have you told Revit to connect to the server network? You can click on the Collaborate Tab, and then on the "Synchronize" button/panel heading to get to the server connection dialog. This should also be detailed, explained on the Autodesk Wikihelp.

wrartes

2011-07-07, 11:40 PM

Hi,
I will explain the scenario we are talking in our office. We have one project in a Revit Central server running on a virtual server, then we have a remote office with wan accelerators (Riverbed) accessing the Revit Central Server (the virtual) at the same time and also a external office (consultant) with a Revit local server connected to the Virtual Revit server.

we need to know if these if posible.

robert.manna

2011-07-08, 12:17 AM

wrartes, yes what you describe can be done. Will it be easy, particularly with the external consultant, probably not. The other thing to keep in mind when virtualizing a Revit Server (particularly the central server) is that the "virtual" hardware really needs to be equal to the reccomendations for physical hardware, of particular importance is the available network bandwidth to the virtual server and storage performance. If the network connection is shared with other virtual or a physical OS/server then you will likely have performance problems, particularly if you anticipate a heavy load, which sounds likely given three to four offices of users working on the Revit Server network. It is important to not underestimate the network performance as a factor in Revit Server's overall performance. It is preferable to have sub 100ms latency between sites, though it will tolerate 100ms or higher, but between 100 and 200 is a grey area, and beyond 200 users will likely have a poor experience. A couple of random pings also don't count in terms of evaluating performance as a ping is a poor way to look at network performance over any type of time span.