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View Full Version : Errors in Revit MEP 2011 pt1



jarom
2011-03-30, 10:37 PM
We just finished another big project in Revit MEP 2011. These are some of the issues we had with Revit. These things have cost thousands of dollars to to "Workarounds". Hey Autodesk a 'workaround' is not a fix, it is what we had to figure out while you head was up your hoo-ha. Trying to explain how the MEP disciplines work for the MEP programmers is like asking a Blind man to paint a house. Let's hope they have addressed these in 2012.

1. Cannot insert fills, patterns or hatches on families. For example our particular company differentiates power panels and non-power panel with solid patterns. You cannot create a panel family with a solid pattern, you could insert a symbol with a pattern, but the symbol will scale.

2. Exporting drawing files from Revit to AutoCAD, it would seem that families that have symbolic lines create block when exported to AutoCAD. Families that have generic symbols inserted create multi-line object when exported to AutoCAD. All of the symbols and symbolic lines in a family should be turned into a block when exported to AutoCAD

3. When exporting text into AutoCAD from Revit, the multiline text within the editor dialogue box has its own properties within the mtext block. This means that editing text must be done one multi-line text block at a time, you must open the editor select all the text and change it all to by layer, by style.

4. Why do ceiling plans in the Electrical discipline not show walls and other structures, unlike the ceiling plans in the Architectural discipline? They should be the same.

5. There needs to be some Boolean commands for modeling objects. The tools for creating families with voids are very limited.

6. There needs to a snap override for circuiting. A way to turn off the endpoint, midpoint, center, etc. and to select the electrical connector.

7. The ability for Revit to circuit is an awesome feature. However, it would be nice to group the circuiting to the switching system. If you have a room and a corridor, currently Revit circuits them randomly or by the nearest fixture. Why can’t Revit circuit the fixture that go to the switch in the room, circuit the corridor fixtures to the motion sensor system, and then circuit the corridor and room together, so that circuiting is grouped?

2/5/2008
8. We need the ability to snap schedules and views on sheets to invisible layout lines. Currently there is no way on lining objects up on a sheet. The whole point of CAD drawings are precision and speed. Revit has neither.


9. There needs to be an easier way of converting existing families from object based to face based. Having to completely recreate families because the copy monitor feature is overcomplicated take too much time.

2/28/2011

1. Switch boards and panelboards need to be separated in the panel drop down list when circuiting. The can be in the same drop down, but since the panelboards and switch board are different and have different functions they should be separated.

2. When circuiting to a panelboard it should first go down one side of the panel and then the other. For instance circuiting should go 1,3,5 and so on before going to 2,4,6 and so on. It should not go 1,2,3,4 and so on. This is because phases are sometimes grouped so that common neutral can be shared.

3. There needs to be a visibility graphics Exception. Just as you can hide and element in view you must be able to allow an exception to be visible in view. A prime example is to allow a Lighting Fixture on a power plan. This is because a Light Fixture has certain schedulable parameters that power devices do not. Turning on the category does not help because you would have to hide everything except the few devises that are to be left on and every new device added in the category would have to be hidden thereafter. Filtering would require doing too many steps for such a simple thing.

4. Switch board should specify whether a breaker is 1, 2 or 3 pole.

5. We need the ability to order panelboards and switch boards by name and not just by proximity.

6. Generic Annotations used in vertically hosted Face Based devices. The Electrical and Fire Alarm devices work correctly. The lighting and other family need to work the same. The issue is that for a vertically mounted Face Based light fixture, like a sconce needs a Generic Annotation so that it will scale relative to the plans dimensional scale. Otherwise the fixture symbol would be too small on a 1/4" plan when it is too large on a 1/16" plan.

7. Arrays need to allow (1) as a minimum. There are time when an array need only show 1 section so that duplicate families are not necessary.

8. When using a Type Catalog Yes/No parameters need to be a valid definition.

9. In the Family Editor, the Texture Editor the dimensional parameters are not consistent with the other dimensional parameters in Revit.

10. We need the ability to make different line types for wires. Such as overhead and underground wiring. Even though the wire type is the same a underground wire needs to be a hidden line.

11. When drawing Model Lines the Modify/Place Lines tab disappears at times. This must be a program glitch.

12. In the Family editor we need the ability to create a parameter that cannot be removed once activated.

13. Families need the ability to "Add Leader" like annotations. There are instances when devices are too close together or stacked and cannot be properly show on floor plan symbology. Being able to take one symbol and leader it off its hosted location.

14. Invisible lines should be Visible so that they can still be seen and used when drawing but do not plot or print. They should work like no-plot lines and layers in AutoCAD.

15. When element Tags are changed to Free End from Attached the Arrow and Tag should remain where it is. 99% of the time the arrow or leader need only be moved a little.

16. We need an auto fill function when inputting information in schedules.

17. There needs to be a 'Hard Return' function when filling out schedules.

18. The Default Height needs to be a schedulable parameter. Occasionally we need to adjust the height of outlets to above counter and since Default Height is not a schedulable parameter the long tedious of finding the each out must be done in a view as opposed to a scheduled list of devices.

19. We need better program feedback when errors occurs. How does one know how to fix an error and how does one know if it was fixed.

20. Panelborad should size themselves based on their load according to NEC standards. But it must also be a parameter the can be overridden.

To be continued.....

jarom
2011-03-30, 10:38 PM
21. When circuiting to a panelboard and the Branch Breaker exceed 80% of the specified breaker rating, instead of a warning that can be ignored (which can cause costly errors on documents) it needs to be a warning that must be addressed before proceeding. Also the 80% rating also needs to be adjustable.

22. Typically the first Symbol Line drawn in the Family Editor is a Model Line. One must either be delete and redraw the Symbol Line or convert it. This is a program bug that must be fixed.

23. Parameters with the same name (spelled exactly the same) same categories, same discipline and same group at time do not work. This is a huge issue when scheduling and calculating parameters in t projects. This a bug that MUST be fixed.

24. Why do the local files contact the Central file any time other than Saving to Central? This causes Huge problems when multiple users are working on the same project.

25. There needs to be a better command line. Command should work like AutoCAD. One must need to know what command were input so that some troubleshooting can be done.

26. We need the ability to locate panels from schedules. At times locating a panel in a large project can be a time consuming task. Revit Used to be able to do this but that function was lost in 2011.

27. There used to be a way to access the panelboard properties when in Circuit Properties. This function needs to be re-applied to Revit.

28. When circuit Tags show more than one circuit, the Tag shows the different circuit numbers but not the different panel names. This makes it extremely hard to find the other circuit. This needs to be resolved.

29. There seems to be a bug in the software that when Electrical Equipment (there may be other devises that do this) the load does not change in the branch circuit when the Electrical Equipment load is changed. The load is calculated on the panelboard but not reflected in the branch circuit. In order for it to change in the Electrical Equipment must be disconnected and then reconnected. This is causing huge problems when showing panelboards and switch gear for project distribution. This MUST BE FIXED.

30. Why do devices at time insert themselves on levels other that the current view level? At times a device will insert on Level 1, while working in Level 2.

31. When creating a Type Catalog file how can I get it to change and modify the Initial Intensity and Initial Color parameters? The Revit Family Tutorial does not explain very well how to do this. It is necessary to control this when selecting different lamping. The lumen output changes.

32. We URGENTLY need a way to print panel schedules on 8.5x11 other than placing them on a sheets. I know you don't understand how the MEP industry works but this is something that needs to be added to Revit MEP ASAP.

33. Crop regions need to be like AutoCAD viewports. We need to be able to make polygonal shapes to follow match lines. You should know this, Architecture is having the same issues. Masking regions make more problems than it fixes.

34. When wiring elements across crop regions the wire should cut at the crop region and insert a wire continuation symbol where the wire ends. This is and essential part of bid documentation. (Submitted)

35. Wire gaps need to be smaller. They are too large even at the smallest setting and critical information is lost when using the wire gap function.

36. On multi-circuit wiring the arrowhead(s) on the wire that connects two elements (wire(s) between two light fixtures) should be in the middle of the wire and not the end, unlike homeruns where the arrowheads need to be at the free end of the wire.


37. There needs to a Non-filleted wiring straight option.

38. When circuiting multiple elements together and using the auto wiring command, there need to be a way cycle through different wiring schemes, much like that on the sprinkler piping systems.

39. When applying dependant, views the dependant view names need to be copied as well.

wookie
2011-03-31, 11:44 AM
<shakes head in disbelief>

drewj
2011-03-31, 04:50 PM
WOW, long list, I will take 1:

26. We need the ability to locate panels from schedules. At times locating a panel in a large project can be a time consuming task. Revit Used to be able to do this but that function was lost in 2011.

Create a quantity schedule of the panels (Electrical Equipment with some filtering) then you can right click on the panel and select Show.

drewj
2011-03-31, 05:30 PM
25. There needs to be a better command line. Command should work like AutoCAD. One must need to know what command were input so that some troubleshooting can be done.

Command feedback is shown on the status bar, thats all the feedback I need, if you need history for troubleshooting then its all available in the Journal files, open one up and there is everything you have done!

Jrobker
2011-03-31, 06:28 PM
There it is...
The bi-annual Revit rant and right on time.

matt__w
2011-03-31, 07:11 PM
3. There needs to be a visibility graphics Exception. Just as you can hide and element in view you must be able to allow an exception to be visible in view. A prime example is to allow a Lighting Fixture on a power plan. This is because a Light Fixture has certain schedulable parameters that power devices do not. Turning on the category does not help because you would have to hide everything except the few devises that are to be left on and every new device added in the category would have to be hidden thereafter. Filtering would require doing too many steps for such a simple thing.
What's wrong with worksets?

matt__w
2011-03-31, 07:14 PM
26. We need the ability to locate panels from schedules. At times locating a panel in a large project can be a time consuming task. Revit Used to be able to do this but that function was lost in 2011.
Why can't you create a schedule (not a panel schedule) and add levels and space names/numbers and sort using those fields? That'll help you locate much faster.

Jrobker
2011-03-31, 07:15 PM
What's wrong with worksets?

Or family sub categories?

mwiggins
2011-03-31, 07:44 PM
Why can't you create a schedule (not a panel schedule) and add levels and space names/numbers and sort using those fields? That'll help you locate much faster.

Or how about using the system browser, find panel right click...show

drewj
2011-03-31, 09:14 PM
4. Why do ceiling plans in the Electrical discipline not show walls and other structures, unlike the ceiling plans in the Architectural discipline? They should be the same.

I am able to see my walls when the ceiling plan is set to electrical discipline, I think you may have another reason for not seeing your walls, for example, Visibility Graphics Categories, View Range, Hidden Objects, Worksets, Linked file visibility, Filters, Design Options or maybe someone changed all the lines in your view using the linework tool to invisible just to bug you?

6. There needs to a snap override for circuiting. A way to turn off the endpoint, midpoint, center, etc. and to select the electrical connector.

use SX to snap to the connector, use SO to turn off snaps you dont want on, check out the manage ribbon tab for the Snap settings

Gabriel Black
2011-04-04, 01:50 PM
4. Why do ceiling plans in the Electrical discipline not show walls and other structures, unlike the ceiling plans in the Architectural discipline? They should be the same.


Have you tried Underlay in the properties menu?

RevitNinja
2011-04-04, 01:55 PM
Item #30 is right on. They NEED to fix that properties palette.

mjdanowski
2011-04-04, 06:52 PM
1. Cannot insert fills, patterns or hatches on families. For example our particular company differentiates power panels and non-power panel with solid patterns. You cannot create a panel family with a solid pattern, you could insert a symbol with a pattern, but the symbol will scale.

Use a detail component, it allows fills and will not scale.



4. Why do ceiling plans in the Electrical discipline not show walls and other structures, unlike the ceiling plans in the Architectural discipline? They should be the same.

Visibility & Graphics -> Underlay Orientation -> Reflected Ceiling Plan



5. There needs to be some Boolean commands for modeling objects.

=if(<boolean expression, <result A>, <Result B>)



6. There needs to a snap override for circuiting. A way to turn off the endpoint, midpoint, center, etc. and to select the electrical connector.

I am unsure what you mean by this. You can select the little grips for a wire and do just about anything with it. Sometimes it gets annoying because these grips overlap with the connector symbol, but that is rare.



7. The ability for Revit to circuit is an awesome feature. However, it would be nice to group the circuiting to the switching system. If you have a room and a corridor, currently Revit circuits them randomly or by the nearest fixture. Why can’t Revit circuit the fixture that go to the switch in the room, circuit the corridor fixtures to the motion sensor system, and then circuit the corridor and room together, so that circuiting is grouped?




8. We need the ability to snap schedules and views on sheets to invisible layout lines. Currently there is no way on lining objects up on a sheet. The whole point of CAD drawings are precision and speed. Revit has neither.

View Tab -> Guide Grid

You should be able to use the "move" command to snap to the guide grid which will be in the same position on each sheet.



9. There needs to be an easier way of converting existing families from object based to face based. Having to completely recreate families because the copy monitor feature is overcomplicated take too much time.

As an MEP engineer you should not be making anything other than face based and unhosted families. I agree it is stupid, but in the end it actually works out nice since we are always hosting things on different surfaces.



They are separated, by part type in the family category parameters. In my opinion though they shouldn't be seperated and should be instance based, rather than family based. Sometimes I want a panelboard treated like a switchboard and vice versa.

[quote=jarom;1122370]
When circuiting to a panelboard it should first go down one side of the panel and then the other. For instance circuiting should go 1,3,5 and so on before going to 2,4,6 and so on. It should not go 1,2,3,4 and so on. This is because phases are sometimes grouped so that common neutral can be shared.

Then you have one side of the panel empty and one side of the panel full. As long as you have more than three circuits, you are always going to have decent phase balance by the way it is done. If you have a shared neutral, then adjust their locations accordingly. Also remember the NEC 2008 requirement for a 3P circuit breaker for multi-wire branch circuits.



4. Switch board should specify whether a breaker is 1, 2 or 3 pole.

You can. Customize your panel schedules and add the "poles" parameter in the circuit row.



5. We need the ability to order panelboards and switch boards by name and not just by proximity.

In the drop down list? Yeah, thats kind of annoying...



6. Generic Annotations used in vertically hosted Face Based devices. The Electrical and Fire Alarm devices work correctly. The lighting and other family need to work the same. The issue is that for a vertically mounted Face Based light fixture, like a sconce needs a Generic Annotation so that it will scale relative to the plans dimensional scale. Otherwise the fixture symbol would be too small on a 1/4" plan when it is too large on a 1/16" plan.

This is a well know problem and has to do with the "maintain annotation orientation" parameter not being located in certain categories. (lighting fixtures & electrical equipment). For electrical devices and fire alarm however you can go to the family editor, go to category properties and check this box. This will fix your problem.

8. When using a Type Catalog Yes/No parameters need to be a valid definition.



10. We need the ability to make different line types for wires. Such as overhead and underground wiring. Even though the wire type is the same a underground wire needs to be a hidden line.

Use a view filter and Yes/No project parameters for the wires category.



12. In the Family editor we need the ability to create a parameter that cannot be removed once activated.

Removed? I am unsure what you mean by this.



16. We need an auto fill function when inputting information in schedules.

Do you work at Microsoft....



Panelborad should size themselves based on their load according to NEC standards. But it must also be a parameter the can be overridden.

I completely disagree, this should be the task of the electrical engineer based upon known and future loads. Revit isn't designing the project, it is aiding in the design.

mjdanowski
2011-04-04, 07:07 PM
When circuiting to a panelboard and the Branch Breaker exceed 80% of the specified breaker rating, instead of a warning that can be ignored (which can cause costly errors on documents) it needs to be a warning that must be addressed before proceeding. Also the 80% rating also needs to be adjustable.
No.

Its bad enough I have all the errors currently in the program, I don't need another. Again, revit is a design aide, not a designer.



23. Parameters with the same name (spelled exactly the same) same categories, same discipline and same group at time do not work. This is a huge issue when scheduling and calculating parameters in t projects. This a bug that MUST be fixed.

Google shared parameters or make a new thread asking for help on this. From what it looks like you are using family parameters in multiple families and expecting them to schedule. You need to use shared parameters in a shared parameters file.



24. Why do the local files contact the Central file any time other than Saving to Central? This causes Huge problems when multiple users are working on the same project.

Because they need to check out elements. If you modify a duct, it needs to tell the central file that you own that duct so nobody else messes with it.



26. We need the ability to locate panels from schedules. At times locating a panel in a large project can be a time consuming task. Revit Used to be able to do this but that function was lost in 2011.

Use the location parameter in the schedule and set up your spaces correctly.



28. When circuit Tags show more than one circuit, the Tag shows the different circuit numbers but not the different panel names. This makes it extremely hard to find the other circuit. This needs to be resolved.

What do you mean by this, it seems you don't have you tag set up correctly.



29. There seems to be a bug in the software that when Electrical Equipment (there may be other devises that do this) the load does not change in the branch circuit when the Electrical Equipment load is changed. The load is calculated on the panelboard but not reflected in the branch circuit. In order for it to change in the Electrical Equipment must be disconnected and then reconnected. This is causing huge problems when showing panelboards and switch gear for project distribution. This MUST BE FIXED.

It changes eventually. I think you need to save. I remember seeing this bug a while back.



30. Why do devices at time insert themselves on levels other that the current view level? At times a device will insert on Level 1, while working in Level 2.

Is it set to insert on level two in the drop down on the ribbon and/or in properties?



32. We URGENTLY need a way to print panel schedules on 8.5x11 other than placing them on a sheets. I know you don't understand how the MEP industry works but this is something that needs to be added to Revit MEP ASAP.

Make a new 8.5"x11" titleblock family, make a new sheet with it and insert your panel schedule on it like any other sheet.



33. Crop regions need to be like AutoCAD viewports. We need to be able to make polygonal shapes to follow match lines. You should know this, Architecture is having the same issues. Masking regions make more problems than it fixes.

Yeah, this is annoying.



35. Wire gaps need to be smaller. They are too large even at the smallest setting and critical information is lost when using the wire gap function.

Manage Tab -> MEP Settings -> Electrical Settings -> Hidden -> Inside Gap & Outside Gap parameters.



36. On multi-circuit wiring the arrowhead(s) on the wire that connects two elements (wire(s) between two light fixtures) should be in the middle of the wire and not the end, unlike homeruns where the arrowheads need to be at the free end of the wire.

I agree, it would be nice if it was like tic marks where you can slide it up and down the wire.



38. When circuiting multiple elements together and using the auto wiring command, there need to be a way cycle through different wiring schemes, much like that on the sprinkler piping systems.

I find that using any sort of auto-route, auto-wire or auto-anything is generally a bad idea, but that would be nice.

Jarom,
You have hit on a lot of trouble points with the Revit MEP electrical features, but at the same time there seems to be a lot of things you are unaware of in regards to the program. If you have any questions with any of the comments I made back to your original issues, feel free to ask and I (or someone else) will try to give you an answer that best explains how to use the feature. Revit MEP 2011 can be frustrating sometimes, especially from an electrical point of view, but once you get the hang of it it really isn't too bad. At least not anymore. The issue is there are a lot of nuances and small things which can make big differences, and the learning curve can be kind of steep.

mike.dixon
2011-04-05, 07:44 PM
30. Why do devices at time insert themselves on levels other that the current view level? At times a device will insert on Level 1, while working in Level 2.

Good lord this is annoying. It happens seemingly at random...I have wasted so much time on this stupid bug...