Revit 2012 Broke My Door Familes? Help!

[ddragoo144336]

Our office updated to Revit 2012 last week and have been generally pretty pleased with it. We have had one glitch, however. The frames in our longtime door families no longer flex properly. Everything works fine in 2011 files, but in 2012 the frames go all wonky when changing door types/sizes.

I have attached the 2011 version of the family. It has nested frames, doors and door swing plan. When opening the family in either 2011 or 2012 and flexing it there, everything seems to work fine. It is when trying to use it in a 2012 project that things go wrong.

Any ideas? Thanks!

[cdatechguy]

At home and cannot open.....

But oh great...2011 caused issues with my 2009 families....hope I am not in the same boat this time around.... I'll open it up in the morning////

[jsnyder.68308]

The family you posted had not been updated to 2012 - as you say. When I inserted it into a 2012 project, it was hosed after I changed types.

Then I opened the family and it updated. When I saved it and reloaded into the original project and overwrote the parameter values, it seemed to work fine, but was still hosed when I changed types. I also tried updating the nested families and reloading those into the updated door family, then reloaded the door family into the project - no go. Does not make sense. Not much help - sorry.

[ddragoo144336]

The family you posted had not been updated to 2012 - as you say. When I inserted it into a 2012 project, it was hosed after I changed types.

Then I opened the family and it updated. When I saved it and reloaded into the original project and overwrote the parameter values, it seemed to work fine, but was still hosed when I changed types. I also tried updating the nested families and reloading those into the updated door family, then reloaded the door family into the project - no go. Does not make sense. Not much help - sorry.

jsnyder, thank you for checking this out. After I initially posted this, I tried this as well and it did the exact same thing you describe. I even updated the nested door and frame families and reloaded them into the family. Everything flexes correctly in the family file itself, but then when loaded into a 2012 project, the frames don't work properly. Oddly, the door panel seem to work fine.

The last thing I can think of doing is to reinsert the updated nested families rather than just reloading them. I'm not sure what it would change, but maybe it will be some sort of unknown magic, sort of like turning my computer off and on to fix it. Or beating my head on the keyboard.

[Baldwin_4-6-0]

Confirmed, RAC 2012 breaks your door.

Personally, I don't have that much detail modeled into my door families, they are really graphic representations of what the large scale detail of the door frame will show.

If I have a building with 1000 plus doors, I wouldn't want to bog down the model with extra modeling detail in the door family, that really doesn't matter... just stating my preference. :)

RAC 2012 should not be breaking families that flex properly.

But all my door families work in RAC 2012.

Maybe try to simplify the new family you will be rebuilding. :\

[ddragoo144336]

With a little bit of help from a gentleman on another forum, I think I might be closer to figuring out what is causing my problems. He found that I was missing the equal dimension in the nested panel family, fixed that, and then relocked the origins of both the nested panel and frame families. When inserted into a 2012 file, this got rid of the other problems, but then the frame throat would not flex properly to fit the thickness of the wall. I went back and locked the frame throat to the reference places for the wall faces, reinserted the door family into my test project and the old problems are back. The frame throat flexes correctly again, but now the frame itself doesn't flex properly.

There is something about locking to the wall face reference planes that Revit 2012 isn't liking, but I have no idea what that could be. It's like there is some small glitch in my family that was not an issue in 2011, but is rearing its ugly head in 2012.


Maybe try to simplify the new family you will be rebuilding. :\

Baldwin, I agree. The doors were some of the first families that I put together back when we first started using Revit in mid-...er, 2008 I think. There is quite a bit overkill on detail that could definitely be pulled back.

We do mainly school projects, with heavily detailed drawings for modernization work. Luckily, we don't have to worry about 1000 doors eating our files, but there is a point when it does become too much, no matter the size of the job. It's taken some experience with the program to really get a feel of how much should be shown in the model.

[DoTheBIM]

I've had various issues like this on every version so far. In fact I built a window family just recently from the ground up in 2011, flexed fine in the family, but when put in a project my nested family would separate from the main family. Not sure I ever really figured out the problem, but I think it had something to do having or not having my reference lines pinned and my nested family location locked or not locked to something that was flexing. Seems when I have it working right in my new family it breaks other families that were already in the project. Not much help but might point you in a direction to look.

When we went from 2009 to 2011, I had a bunch of casework families that got broken in the upgrade, turned it into support and found out that development changed one of the rules about making families that further constrained what you were allowed to do. Thanks for the advance notice. I ended up going through hundreds of families to undo what development made impossible in 2011. It had something to do with the relationship between instance and type parameters and formulas between the two.

[anna.oscarson]

This has been reported and we are investigating it.

A possible workaround:
1. Edit the nested family [08 12 13 HM Frame], and make the parameter “Throat” a Type parameter. Make sure that the family flexes symmetrically when “Throat” is changed.
2. Reload the nested family [08 12 13 HM Frame] into [08 11 13 HM Single Flush]. Remove the alignments between the nested instance and the sides of the dummy wall of the family.
3. Instead of the alignments, create a Dim between the two sides of the of the dummy wall’s side faces (not the Ref Planes) and label it with a reporting parameter, e.g. “host_thickness”.
4. Edit the Type Properties of the nested family and associate the “Throat” type parameter with the reporting parameter “host_thickness”.
5. Reload the family into the project.

These steps should restore the original relationships, but w/o instance parameter of the nested family.

Hope this helps!
Anna Oscarson
QA Analyst, Autodesk, Inc.

[ddragoo144336]

Thank you, everyone, for all of your help on this. I just finished up my deadline (updating Revit this week was a BAD idea, but at least it wasn't mine!) and figured I should check back in with the final, functional family.

After working my way through all of the door families in this project, the culprit in the end was the type vs. instance parameter in the nested families. Changing the height and width to instance parameters in the nested door and frame families and then reloading them into the main family fixed the problem. In the end, I didn't need to relock the origins. I didn't need to add the frame throat dimension and make it a reporting parameter either, but it was fantastic to learn about this and FINALLY have this information on our door schedule.

[Superdutch]

Hi guys,


I was wondering if this one was fixed with update 1.

[DoTheBIM]

...I was wondering if this one was fixed with update 1.If you mean the type vs instance parameters. It's not likely to ever get "fixed". When I filed a support request for a broken family in 2011... The response was that the developers made a change in 2011 that forced a certain relationship with parameters
Development via CSR
Revit 2011 introduced some changes to parameters, where parameters with formulas cannot be driven by shape handles.
However I did try to put the family at the top of this thread into a blank 2012-u1 project and switched types with no issue.

[cliff collins]

Check here:

http://revitclinic.typepad.com/my_weblog/

cheers

[lorne.bourdo.152516]

So we too just upgraded to 2012, and installed Update 1.

These families that Herman Miller made of the Aeron chair worked greate in 2011, I try to place them in a 2012 project and it has an error; "Can't make type "HermanMiller_Seating_Aeron_WorkChair: Aeron Work Chair"

I can open the family and edit it. Does anyone know why this won't load?

Thanks,
Lorne

[cphubb]

Just a quick bit of advice on nested parameters.

I learned long ago (1000 years) not to lock nested reference planes to local planes. Not only will the family break on upgrade (2011-2012 was not the first and won't be the last) but often the family will break if the end user does not set the parameters correct or uses the align tool improperly or locks dimensions improperly.

Here is my strategy

1. All nested parameters that are passed to the host are Instance
2. The parameter is recreated in the host (Instance or type is OK)
3. Set the two equal using the assign parameter button
4. Dimension pieces in the host and the nest with the matching parameters

This almost never fails, if one breaks the other will as well. For instance

Nested Host
Rough Opening Rough Opening
Throat Frame Throat
Door Width Width

Since in the case of doors some of the parameters are preset and cannot be altered we use them on the host side and create an instance on the nest side to solve the problem of type parameters getting driven by instance (PSST THIS IS BAD) and may be the cause of the nested families breaking.

[Ning Zhou]

not to lock nested reference planes to local planes.


for local planes, you mean ref planes in host?

[cphubb]

for local planes, you mean ref planes in host?

yes the planes in the host

[Ning Zhou]

right, i made this kind of mistakes before, thanks Chris for confirmation

[Apsis0215]

I have a nested group of door families, doors, panels, frames- I tried to make frame type an instance parameter but it wouldn't constrain to the different wall widths.

If I make frame type a type parameter it behaves properly. This bug has been there ever since I started nesting families in 2008. We don't need the throat depths- nor do we want to specify them at this point.

It would be more ideal if everything could be thied through Type parameters- so every instance doesn't have to have all the same parameters. I can then pick and choose what parameters matter for my door frames (eg. height, width). Anything constrained to a wall surface should flex- but mixing type and instance parameters causes Revit to Choke.