UK Based System Wall Family

[Alan aka cadalot]

Ralph Pullinger and I are looking at developing a UK Based System Wall Family Template, and we require your help. But in order to do so you will need a little background information and briefing on the kind of information we need to know, and our thoughts so far...

Pop over to http://cadalot-revitlearningcurve.blogspot.com/2011/07/revit-system-wall-families-uk.html and have a look at the background and starting point for this thread....

Q: What do you think of Ralphs proposed naming convention against that in GRBENU_Walls.rvt ?

Q: To me light weight blockwork is Aircrete, What is normal weight blockwork?

Q: Cavity or Air Gap?

Q: What actual wall configurations are you specifying on real schemes from all those offered by the block and thermal insulation manufacturers?

[Paul.84958]

To start the discussion off here are a few thoughts.

1) Walls styles need to match the design process and include Generic walls for early design. These should include only a generic wall material.

2).Wall components needs to be generic in terms of manufacturers. By this I mean the component needs to be Blockwork lightweight, and not a specific H+H aircrete block.

3).Wall component naming should include Usage Generic, External or Internal etc. and then list the components from External to Internal. A list of acrynyms to be used needs to be defined, classifications for Uniclass and NBS keynoting included.

4).Walls componenets need to inherent parameters from their materials. In reality the Architect or engineers is unlikely to specificy the exact block used on site but will specify the performance of the materials to be used. Manufacturers should be encouraged to provide material information parameter information.

5) As the Wall designs can the be developed by changing the materials definitons assigned to those walls.

Regards

Paul

[Elrond]

Some quick thoughts -

I think we need a set of timber frame wall types also.

Cavity is correct terminology for building regulations so I think stick with it.

We need a wider range of insulations type - EPS slabs, blown EPS balls, blown cellulose, mineral wool, PUR etc

The naming on the final slide is just too long for practical use IMHO, much prefer simplified type names with less description in the name.

[Alan aka cadalot]

I think there was not a lot wrong with the original GRBENU_Walls System it needs a few new initials added for some of the make ups that Ralph has identified. But until we identify all the possible make ups and see what they look like in the dialogue box perhaps something between the two?

[Alan aka cadalot]

Here is an excel spreadsheet starter for 10 - I'm not saying that the Key being currently used in the spreadsheet is what we will finally end up with but it's catch 22 we need to know how many different wall configurations are actually being used to see what we need in the system and how it will look like in the end

[Alan aka cadalot]

Please add your wall configurations to this thread i.e. Here is a typical one from a recent scheme I worked on:-

25 x 125 Thermowood Cladding
42 x 42 Horizontal battens
21 x 50 Vertical battens
breather membrane
100mm medium density block
100mm cavity filled with mineral wool
100mm lighweight block
20mm Plaster

[Damo]

Hi Alan,

Looks like a good framework for discussion.

I can see you are trying to establish the principles for abbreviations and have a consistent approach, and I think this is absolutely right, otherwise we end up with the mess we already have.

However, in reading through the various wall types 2 thoughts struck me.
1. Do we really have to have 3 letters to identify an abbreviation. Can certain words be 1 or 2 letters, purely because of where they are in the description. I’m thinking of Ren & Pls for Render & Plaster respectively. These can only be on the finished side of a wall, so ‘R’ & ‘P’ will probably suffice, (and if anyone doesn’t know one is external and the other is internal, then maybe they should look to change profession  ).
2. Never used ‘Normal’ brickwork as a description, but could probably reserve the abbreviation for future use.
3. Pty always looks like ‘Pity’ to me. If we can agree to use up to a maximum of 3 letters for an abbreviation, then PW for Party Wall falls more comfortably on my eyes. Brk instead of Bwk (Blockwork?)
4. Your listing of wall types is logical, but I feel it could be more workable when it comes to choosing they wall type.
Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls and
Ext_20Ren_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls
are both essentially the same wall, just one has had Render applied. But they are not listed adjacent to each other alphabetically.

Could these be named as follows?
Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19P
Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-20R-19P

This bunches them together neatly, makes them easier to find. We all know which side the Render goes so there should be no confusion.

[Alan aka cadalot]

Hi Alan,

Looks like a good framework for discussion.

I can see you are trying to establish the principles for abbreviations and have a consistent approach, and I think this is absolutely right, otherwise we end up with the mess we already have.

However, in reading through the various wall types 2 thoughts struck me.
1. Do we really have to have 3 letters to identify an abbreviation. Can certain words be 1 or 2 letters, purely because of where they are in the description. I’m thinking of Ren & Pls for Render & Plaster respectively. These can only be on the finished side of a wall, so ‘R’ & ‘P’ will probably suffice, (and if anyone doesn’t know one is external and the other is internal, then maybe they should look to change profession  )..

The jury is still out on the three letters, and why not use whole words like Stud instead of Std for the moment it's a way to build a list and we can tweak it once we have found the longest wall construction.

The originial GRBENU_Walls used "R" and "P" it also ised "i" and "a" for Insulation and Air Gap - It worked but was not consistant.

I think Location_[size][materail code or name]-[size][material code or name]-[etc.etc works....

There are those that want classifications for Uniclass and NBS keynoting included and links to the BS for naming, but these are not layers like AutoCAD they are forms of construction and the bottom line is that they must be easy to understand.



2. Never used ‘Normal’ brickwork as a description, but could probably reserve the abbreviation for future use..

What is "Normal"? that's why I produced the list of blocks on my posting at http://cadalot-revitlearningcurve.blogspot.com/2011/07/revit-system-wall-families-uk.html I like Light / Medium and Heavy or even Dense as normally that means Heavy



3. Pty always looks like ‘Pity’ to me. If we can agree to use up to a maximum of 3 letters for an abbreviation, then PW for Party Wall falls more comfortably on my eyes. Brk instead of Bwk (Blockwork?)
.

I like the idea of PW and will adopt that on the spreadsheet

I've seen more Bwk rather than Brk used on Architects drawings




4. Your listing of wall types is logical, but I feel it could be more workable when it comes to choosing they wall type.
Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls and
Ext_20Ren_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19Pls
are both essentially the same wall, just one has had Render applied. But they are not listed adjacent to each other alphabetically.
.

The list is in spreadsheet build order, you are right that minor variations are the addition of render or plasterboard and dabs instead of plaster the rest of the walls can be the same - the final order will depend on how we construct the family.

Perhaps all Rendered walls should be grouped together?

Perhaps all Fair Face Brickwork Walls should be grouped together?

First we must create a list of all the wall type that are actually being specified with their properties then we can sort out how best to arrange them.




Could these be named as follows?
Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-19P
Ext_102Bwk-50Air-102Bwk-20R-19P
.

Can't agree with this,



This bunches them together neatly, makes them easier to find. We all know which side the Render goes so there should be no confusion.

I take your point about any one in construction should know to Render the outside and Plaster the inside of a wall, but there are some really thick people out there;0)

Lets keep it "KISS" Keep It Simple Stupid - we read from left to right - so lets keep to the construction notation from Outside to Inside and in order of size and construction material

Thanks for the feedback, if you or anyone else reading this thread could post a list of wall constructions that are not already in the spreadsheet and that you have been using over the last 10 - 20 years so we can continue building the wall list that would be great

[Alan aka cadalot]

Hi Elrond

Thanks for taking the time to post and your views like all those that bother to become involved are noted and will be considered in the creation of the system and family (did you see what I did there Mum ;0)


Some quick thoughts -

I think we need a set of timber frame wall types also..

I agree about the timber framed wall construction - care to share what you have been using so that it can be added to the list?



Cavity is correct terminology for building regulations so I think stick with it.

If we use Cavity we are not taking into account it now days it can be fully or partially filled with insulation, so I agree with you about the correct terminology but cavity walls can also be used internally i.e. Party Walls so the Ext and Int for External and Internal works better than the CW notation that has been used historically.



We need a wider range of insulations type - EPS slabs, blown EPS balls, blown cellulose, mineral wool, PUR etc.

I agree, but do we need to have the same wall family a number of times because the type of insulation is different? That would make the family list huge.



The naming on the final slide is just too long for practical use IMHO, much prefer simplified type names with less description in the name.

I take you point about the length of the name and I like the GRBENU_Wall notation but it will not cover all of the possible forms of construction, what's being used in the spreadsheet at the moment is a "means to an end" and will be reviewed once we have all the different wall types defined and feedback from people like your good self.

[Alan aka cadalot]

Hi paul

I know that we have chatted on the phone re this but to keep the threat alive here are my replies for others to comment upon:-


To start the discussion off here are a few thoughts.

1) Walls styles need to match the design process and include Generic walls for early design. These should include only a generic wall material.


Noted and will be added to the list, can you suggest a few examples?



2).Wall components needs to be generic in terms of manufacturers. By this I mean the component needs to be Blockwork lightweight, and not a specific H+H aircrete block.


My point was "what is lightweight", to me it's Aircrete or what was Autoclaved Airated Concrete Blocks, the properties of which can be seen on my posting at http://cadalot-revitlearningcurve.blogspot.com/2011/07/revit-system-wall-families-uk.html Any Lightweight Block should have the properties of the heaviest of the Aircrete blocks



3).Wall component naming should include Usage Generic, External or Internal etc. and then list the components from External to Internal. A list of acrynyms to be used needs to be defined, classifications for Uniclass and NBS keynoting included.


And we await the results of you forth coming meeting re Uniclass etc



4).Walls componenets need to inherent parameters from their materials. In reality the Architect or engineers is unlikely to specificy the exact block used on site but will specify the performance of the materials to be used. Manufacturers should be encouraged to provide material information parameter information.


They do in their brochures



5) As the Wall designs can the be developed by changing the materials definitons assigned to those walls.


OK can you be a little more specific here?

[Paul.84958]

To make this work consistently there needs to be some industry agreed abbreviations to be used for naming conventions and I have put this to CPIC. A list is presently being generated and will be published as part of the updated Uniclass Layering system which also requires similar abbreviations to be used.
Here is the basic logic.
The Wall name should be split into 3 fields and these are:

Field 1 Separator Field 2 Separator Field 3 (optional)
Usage _ Width Component _ WallType

Field 1 Usage will depend on the Usage classification defined within Uniclass which for walls is likely to be one of the following:
• External,
• Internal
• Party
• Retaining
• Garden
This will end with a _ as a separator.

Field 2 is the wall components and should be order from external components to internal component. The width of the component and abbreviation will be used. A list of agreed abbreviations will be published. Each component will be separated by a hyphen.

Field 3 (Optional) is to be used where walls contain the same components and widths but different materials have been assigned to them. May be the brick type is different or the block type etc. A project specific wall type reference can then be used to aid identification.

[Alan aka cadalot]

Paul

Thanks for the posting, and hopefully contributors to this post may identify some forms of construction or materials that perhaps CPIC have not thought off or perhaps included within their forming standard.

For those readers of this Thread who don't know who CPIC are, they are the Construction Project Information Committee, responsible for providing best practice guidance on the content, form and preparation of construction production information, and making sure this best practice is disseminated throughout the UK construction industry.

For more information on CPIC see http://www.cpic.org.uk/
.

[Alan aka cadalot]

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Don't just Lurk out there, please contribute a wall make up

[Mike Lister]

Hi Alan, I've been starting to look at the naming of walls etc. in a bit more detail lately mostly driven by the future arrival of the National BIM Library (of which I see you are very aware).

I don't know how NBS have arrived at their naming conventions but I have decided to conduct a survey of the office to see how staff would name two different types of wall. My aim is to see what they prioritise, is it the overall thickness, composition of materials, internal/external etc? I will leave any feedback here so that it may help you.

I have downloaded your excel file on Revit System Wall Family Ver 1, I will give you some feedback once I have looked at it properly. I don't know if I'm joining the debate too late but I feel this is an important debate as we could have a system forced on us that will be here to stay for a long time so it is imperative that we get it right.