Need A Details Solution NOW

[antman]

I've done a little testing and gotten advice from our trainer, but details in Revit (at this point, to me) seem horribly broken. Not that actually detailing in Revit seems bad - what I can't seem to find is a good solution for projects that have more than one building, which is fairly common for us.

One option is to do them in CAD, and manually reference detail callouts. We did this on our previous project, and I *really* don't want to do that again. If I don't get this figured out immediately, this is the route we are going to have to go.

It seems the other option is to create a separate project that has all the common (non building-specific) details, and insert those views and sheets into each building project (we are planning on full plan sets for each building - that is, the common detail sheets will be part of each building's set, thereby being duplicated multiple times for the overall project).

At first, this solution seems to work really well, since we can 'reference other view' when placing a callout. However, once something changes (detail changes number, or to a different sheet altogether, or is deleted, or a new one is added, etc.) there is no good way to push that change to each building project. Every method I can think of still requires a lot of manual coordination and re-work, which is exactly what I thought the Revit detail system was supposed to resolve.

Maybe I'm just missing some critical component that makes this whole system actually work, and that is why I'm posting here in search of the answer. To quote someone in this forum, "Linking, scheduling and details are not really a big issue anymore." Somebody please weigh in with some information that makes that true.

[renogreen]

Not really sure I understand what the problem is. If you are doing each building as a separate set of drawings, I assume you are going to copy and paste details from this project file that has all the common details into each individual project. Is that correct? If so, those details are only part of the project they have been copied in and if there is a change in that project, i.e. detail moves to a different sheet or whatever, so what? It has no impact on the other, separate projects.

If the detail itself changes, it can always be copied and pasted back to the other project files to update the detail.

To the best of my knowledge you cannot reference a detail from another project or one that is linked.

I'm not clear on what the issue is.

[Revitaoist]

The trick is to make a sheet of all 2D details, preferably done in Revit. Then you can 'insert views from file', and insert a whole sheet. This sheet cannot have any 3D elements, then you can do a callout and 'reference other view'.

[antman]

I think I see your point. For further clarification...
We have 7 buildings in the project. I am under the assumption that the project manager wants all the 'common' detail sheets to be identical across buildings. If they don't have to be identical, what you propose would probably work ok, except that for the details that actually change content, needing to copy/paste into 6 other projects seems really cumbersome.

If they do need to be identical (which, for the sake of argument, let's say they do, and that we are only plotting the detail sheets once and pointing callouts in all buildings to those sheets) then you are not only needing to track content changes, but placement changes as well. There is no (even remotely) automated system in Revit to manage that - once the details have been inserted and callouts created that reference those views, you have to manually move, renumber, and change those details for 6 other projects. I don't see any way to sugar coat that workflow to make it acceptable. Also a major bummer is that once a callout is placed, there is no way to change it to reference an *other* other view.

Oh, and please don't take my tone as being combative toward you, I appreciate your help. I'm just a little frustrated that Revit isn't solving all my problems and letting me golf 4 hours a day. .-)

[cliff collins]

Perhaps you are trying too hard?

Could you just simply have 7 individual Revit projects, and issue/print sheets from each one, and not try to cross-reference the "common" details across the linked or unlinked models?

Just treat each building as a separate project, and fully populate each one with all sheets including the standard details.

Then only the Overall Site Plan would be used from the "master file" which is the Site model with the 7 bldgs. linked into it?

Just a thought--maybe too simplistic?

[renogreen]

I agree with Cliff. Populate each individual project with the standard detail sheets. That way all detail callouts and references are live and you don't have to try to remember to go back and change a detail reference. Trying to keep track of that thru 7 projects is going to be real headache.

[antman]

Perhaps you are trying too hard?

Could you just simply have 7 individual Revit projects, and issue/print sheets from each one, and not try to cross-reference the "common" details across the linked or unlinked models?

Just treat each building as a separate project, and fully populate each one with all sheets including the standard details.

Then only the Overall Site Plan would be used from the "master file" which is the Site model with the 7 bldgs. linked into it?

Just a thought--maybe too simplistic?

I think you are describing what I'm trying to do. I don't want the buildings referenced into each other. I want to insert standard 2D details into each building *from* a standalone 'details' Revit project (window, door, interior, exterior, etc. - all the details that will be the same across all buildings). The details that are building-specific (referencing the model) will only be included in that building's project.

I agree, it would be simpler to let each building deviate from the others in terms of detail location, and only have to track through any changes to content. Maybe this is just what we will have to do.

[antman]

Trying to keep track of that thru 7 projects is going to be real headache.

You mean like the way we used to have to do it in CAD? .-D

[Revitaoist]

A good solution to the content changes is to make real 3D details where applicable and start another detail sheet. This is good to tighten up the accuracy of your model and allows you to have only one 'generic' detail sheet, though the above posts on doing each building independently works well and is the most common. You will find as the project proceeds that you will most likely need details unique to each situation, and the idea of having a 'universal detail sheet' will fade as reality sets in.

I understand the frustration, Revit can drive you mad, especially if don't know the right 'way' of doing things. It can be a lot like playing 'whack-a-mole'.

[simong]

One solution I have seen is to have a 'standard details' model, where all 2D typical details are created (note I say 'typical'...anything specific to a building should always be drawn in the building model via callout, etc.) and print this as a standalone set of drawings, in addition to all the usual building and site drawings. If a detail is typical, why replicate it on seven sheets for seven buildings?

This doesn't escape the referencing dilemma...one solution I have seen in tandem with the above is to have 'dummy details' in each building file; drafting views with text only ie. "I am a typical gutter detail" to reference too, as opposed to bringing the whole detail (with extra linetypes, components etc. into your nice clean file), and then put these all onto a sheet which doesn't appear in the sheet list.

Of course, I like my models super clean and tidy, so any view with 'dummy' in front of it gives me minor heartburn. My argument is always that they are 'typical' details, and as such, need no specific referencing. You want a typical gutter detail; go to the detail called "Typical Gutter' in the detail package. Different horses for different courses though...some people like to see referencing on everything.

One day Revit may have the ability to reference between files...and draw accurate railings...and have more than adequate stairs...

[Craig_L]

I have created a seperate "project" file with office standard 2D files drawn in it.
When I need these I simply open the project and insert them into my "working" project.
This will solve your problem however if you are wanting an "X-Ref" style deal where you alter the detail in one place and it changes for your other 6 buildings, you wont get it this way.

You can create a link to a CAD file and use that essentially the same way as you do an XREF, although I wouldnt recommend it, I just dont like having to work in the two different mediums.

There are many ways around it, you will need to think outside the box on a method that suits you and the needs of that project. Think about using a project file with the details that will be used for all of these buildings as a seperate file, and simply set up your required sheets in that project on its own.

I'm sorry I don't have an exact sollution because it will just depend on how you want to manage your projects and your details - my recommendation would be to create your details in that separate file and treat that as a stand-alone set of sheets that cover all of the standard details for your project, that would be the simplest and most logical method.

Have a read of the 6 phases of revit below I am sure you will identify with it. I would say you will go between phase 2 and 4 for some time...I certainly do
---
THE SIX PHASES OF REVIT

Phase One - Initial Excitement!!!
"Holy ****! Look what I can do with this thing!"

Phase Two - First bump "Hmmmm...?
Why won't it do what I want? That's not how I did it in (insert other cad software here)!!!"

Phase Three - Creamy Middle
mmm... things are going more smoothly, now......mmmmm"

Phase Four - What The F*** stage
The family editor "eats you up and spits you out"!

Phase Five - The Enlightenment Things really begin to click!
You understand why things are happening in your model, and better yet how to control them and avoid problems. You have conquered the family editor.

Phase Six - Zen of Revit
You have mastered nearly all things Revit. You "know" what Revit "likes", and what it "dislikes" during model construction, a sixth sense, really. You spend your time exploring and tweaking advanced scheduling, OBDC, external parameters, AR3. You have a template to beat all templates, families for every situation.

[tedg]

.........
Have a read of the 6 phases of revit below I am sure you will identify with it. I would say you will go between phase 2 and 4 for some time...I certainly do
---
THE SIX PHASES OF REVIT

Phase One - Initial Excitement!!!
"Holy ****! Look what I can do with this thing!"

Phase Two - First bump "Hmmmm...?
Why won't it do what I want? That's not how I did it in (insert other cad software here)!!!"

Phase Three - Creamy Middle
mmm... things are going more smoothly, now......mmmmm"

Phase Four - What The F*** stage
The family editor "eats you up and spits you out"!

Phase Five - The Enlightenment Things really begin to click!
You understand why things are happening in your model, and better yet how to control them and avoid problems. You have conquered the family editor.

Phase Six - Zen of Revit
You have mastered nearly all things Revit. You "know" what Revit "likes", and what it "dislikes" during model construction, a sixth sense, really. You spend your time exploring and tweaking advanced scheduling, OBDC, external parameters, AR3. You have a template to beat all templates, families for every situation.
:lol::lol::shock::cry:

Wicked funny .. and true so far!!
I don't work with REVIT everyday (yet), I've only worked on a few projects after my intermediate training a year and a half ago.

I'm at around Phase 3 and don't expect to get out any time soon. :banghead:

[sbrown]

The only problem with the views transfered into multiple projects is when you have to modify and update them. I haven't tried this, but I was just thinking that if you were to create detail groups out of each typical details in the "host project", then put them on a sheet, transfer them into the other projects. then you could modify /Save group and reload those groups into the other projects.

[raalvare]

One way to accomplish this is to create a "details master project" and draw the details in floor plan views instead of in drafting views. Then in each of your projects create plan views that turn off every other category except for lines and text. Then link in your details master project, go to visibility graphics under Revit Links and override the display of the link to show the specific "detail floor plan" that you want to show.

You should name the "detail floor plans" the name of the details, and you can add some view parameters to group them under a "Detail" category.

This allows you to edit the details in one file, and update it on many other files without a lot of detail groups. The downside is that you have to duplicate the effort of building the detail sheets in every file.

You have to weigh this against the previously described method where you keep the details in their own project, and waiting until the end to bring the detail sheets so that you avoid having to update them.

[Steve_Stafford]

Such projects have "standard/common/shared" details and "specific/custom" details.


Do all the detailing that they share in "one" project
Do all the detailing that is shared in Drafting Views, not model "live" views
Use Insert Views from File to pass them to the other projects.

This allows for local view referencing of callouts/sections etc

Do all shared detailing in the "master" project
Only worry about keeping the sheet and detail numbering updated between all sheets
Don't bother to update the details in each other project, the views could be blank for that matter (except for a piece of text, has to be something in the view)
Print all shared details from the master

Strategically use a separate sheet numbering scheme for shared details so they don't compete with project specific details.
Only necessary to manage sheet reference and detail numbers during the course of the project and add new shared details if they arise.

Easiest when detailing is done in later stages of documentation naturally


I know this restates what was written earlier but I think that most miss that it isn't really necessary to put "finished" details in all the other project files to keep them "up-to-date". The only thing they need to keep "up-to-date" is the sheet number and detail numbers, assuming that detail sheets are printed from the master project instead of from each individual project. That's why I suggest a separate sheet numbering scheme for these shared details, so they don't compete with the rest of the set.

[antman]

has to be something in the view

Thank you Steve! Very clear and concise, and thank you for that extra piece of information about putting something in the view. We will be doing exactly what you mention in this post, except that our common details will be done in AutoCAD due to staffing demands.

[Steve_Stafford]

...about putting something in the view...Drafting views don't like being "empty" when you try to put them on a sheet.

You could just put a piece of text that says, "This detail must be printed from such and such project file". Make it a group and paste it into all the views and you can change the wording once...update everywhere.

[antman]

Drafting views don't like being "empty" when you try to put them on a sheet.

You could just put a piece of text that says, "This detail must be printed from such and such project file". Make it a group and paste it into all the views and you can change the wording once...update everywhere.

I'm toying with the idea of trying to make it a hyperlink that would launch the appropriate dwg in AutoCAD. I've said it before - I think I'll perpetually live in Revit Zen phase 2 (at least the 'why won't it do what I want?' part). .-)

[Craig_L]

If you continue to find sollutions that point back to CAD you will trap yourself in phase 2.

There needs to be a commitment to working in revit as much as possible.
It's far too easy to just drop out to CAD, but then ask why you bothered shifting to Revit to begin with.
Revit is a bit of a paradigm shift in how you manage your workflows and also your work processes when dealing with Xref style add-ins. Move out of solely logic, engage that right brain some more and come up with solutions within the current environment, there are plenty of options and trial and error is only going to mean you get it closer the next time.

It honesty it only took me about 2 days to redraw all of our office standards in a Revit project file.
Now they are done, I never have to worry about CAD, I can choose to just import single views as I need them or print straight from that file. Usually I will just import the 3 or 4 standard items I need but I can understand for a large project that utilises alot of them that option is not workable.

Unless you search for, and find sollutions to phase 2, you will never ascend out of it...
just saying.

[antman]

Unless you search for, and find sollutions to phase 2, you will never ascend out of it...
just saying.

I think I might not have made my point clearly enough. What I mean is that even when I'm in phase 6, I will still have a foot firmly in phase 2. It is in my nature to press the design application to the limits of what it can do to meet my specific needs. That's why I participate in beta (when I have the time). Revit will never be a perfect program, and it will never do all I want it to, but that won't stop me from trying to see if it can.

As for using AutoCAD for details in this particular instance, no matter how much I engage my right brain, there is still the reality that we are going to need more manpower to complete the details, and those individuals do not have access to or training in Revit. Given the current state of how details work across multiple projects in Revit anyway, that is the area I am most willing to push out to CAD in order to make the project happen. Just for the sake of scale, you mention having 3 or 4 standard items - this project will have upwards of 400 details.

[david_peterson]

As for using AutoCAD for details in this particular instance, no matter how much I engage my right brain, there is still the reality that we are going to need more manpower to complete the details, and those individuals do not have access to or training in Revit. Given the current state of how details work across multiple projects in Revit anyway, that is the area I am most willing to push out to CAD in order to make the project happen. Just for the sake of scale, you mention having 3 or 4 standard items - this project will have upwards of 400 details.
Only 400 details? That's like a typical project. :lol:
What I've done in the past to keep my sanity while detailing in Acad for my typicals (since it seems to me that everytime I adjust the physical model when the detail was cut I just created more work for myself). I use very few sections cut from revit (if any)
I do however set up dummy sheets that match my acad sheets and place the details on them with the same scale and extents as my acad details. This way, if I move a detail, I move it in revit and it updates all my cuts. If I look at the section in revit, if should look very close to what I have in cad (major parts and pieces).
I did do a project where I had 7 buildings (2 packages per building 14 volumns total, 430 sheets, I'm guessing over 1000 details) where I had specific details for each building. Made life much easier for the contractors, they only needed to carry one set per building. It also helped because I did detail building specific. The archies went a different way and created the "Detail Set" for all 7 buildings. Problem was is the buildings were almost (keyword "Almost) exactly the same. They tried to use 1 stair section for 9 sets of stairs. When the steel showed up on site, it only fit in one of the shafts. Detail sets are great, but only if they are truly generic details. Just my 2 cents.

[Craig_L]

As for using AutoCAD for details in this particular instance, no matter how much I engage my right brain, there is still the reality that we are going to need more manpower to complete the details, and those individuals do not have access to or training in Revit. Given the current state of how details work across multiple projects in Revit anyway, that is the area I am most willing to push out to CAD in order to make the project happen. Just for the sake of scale, you mention having 3 or 4 standard items - this project will have upwards of 400 details.

I understand your scope, what I am saying is typically most projects might only use a few of your standard detail items from your "standards library" I have worked on large scale projects requiring a common library of their own for the 90 buildings in the entire project, we handled this in ACAD (because is was before revit) and it had it's own xref to run this. A seperate details project will function in exactly the same way as an xref.

I think also you are missing the opportunity here. Drawing basic detailing in Revit is probably about the best thing you could have your "unqualified" revit technicians working on. It will give them a basic introduction to working in revit without having to teach them how to model immediately. Expose them to the revit environment whilst allowing them to get some of the basics learned with minimal supervision and one on one teaching required, and zero modelling experience required...

This is the dilema that most offices face - when do we say for the sake of achieving a deadline, do we drop out to the old 'better the devil we know" format?

Of course, you need to make this call based on what you can achieve, your available resources, your time, and how much of your free time you are willing to forego. No one can answer these variables but you...