Reference plane default extents

[etornberg]

Sometimes I have a new project; and insert a reference plane in planview. When I go to an elevation or section the reference plane is grossly beyond any other components, like 40 feet above and 40 feet below the extents of any grids, levels, or objects. What causes this? I spend too much time grabbing these (hey when will we be able to trim a reference plane??) and pulling the handles back to where they should go. The same goes for generation of section or elevation views later in the project. I wonder if inserted DWG files have z-axis data that forces this to happen?

Going beyond this, why does the new Autodesk new wiki-help system seem so sophomoric? They would do better if they just linked their search engine to AUGI. Are there any truly unabridged reference manuals out there, that explain something like what causes a reference plane to act the way it does, or reveal the mysteries of beam snaps and symbolic stick symbol cutbacks?

Go ahead, try typing "reference plane" in the help search box, for this most ubiquitous of elements, and as an experienced user see if there is anything you didn't know.

[Alfredo Medina]

I don't understand. When you create a reference plane in plan view it will only be visible in the views that are perpendicular to the direction in which you created the reference plane, and it will be vertical in the elevation, not horizontal. Can you post an image describing this issue?

[gtarch]

I'm going to chime in on Adesk help & docs in general. I try not whine on these forums, but this post strikes a nerve with me.

------------------------

Say you look up reference planes in the Adesk Docs. The definition would be something like:

-A reference plan is a plane that you create in you project to use a reference in your design. Not much more.

------------------------

Then you look up adding a reference plan. The definition would be something like:

-Go to Home tab, select Reference Plan command, click once, click again to finish. Not much more.

-------------------------

There is almost no effort in the Adesk documentation to provide even a minimal level of why you would do these things, or to provide any guidance on insight into the uses & limitations of the tools. Except maybe to cross-reference to equally sparse explanations of related topics.

I know it has always been like this with Adesk (ACAD is the same way). I think it undermines the products, and make them harder to adopt and to learn.

[Alfredo Medina]

Even though other articles are good, and some of them are very good, this article about Reference Planes:
http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/Revit/enu/2012/Help/Revit_User's_Guide/2654-Tools_an2654/2843-Referenc2843
is really very disappointing. At least, it should be a rule for technical writers NOT to define a term using the same term that is being explained. For example, the article about Reference Planes begins with this sentence:

"Use the Reference Plane tool to draw reference planes to use as a guideline in your design."

Well, the user came to the article trying to understand what a reference plane is, not asking what the Reference Plane tool creates, which is very obvious: reference planes!

Then the next paragraph continues like this:

"Reference planes are an integral part of family creation. For detailed information about creating families, see The Families Guide. Reference planes appear in each new plan view that you create for a project. See Datum Extents and Visibility."

Well, the user was not asking about families. The reference to The Families Guide is not helpful, since it is a document that is kind of difficult to find and has not been updated in more than 2 years.

Then the article has links to topics such as "adding, naming, hiding" reference planes, and "properties", and the page ends without explaining what a reference plane was in the first place.

That article is an example of a very poor help document.

[Scott D Davis]

That article is an example of a very poor help document.

Best thing about a Wiki, you can change it!! Anytime you find something you don't like, EDIT THE PAGE! :)

[Alfredo Medina]

Best thing about a Wiki, you can change it!! Anytime you find something you don't like, EDIT THE PAGE!

But then, is that the current position of Autodesk in regards to the help articles that need improvement? "If you don't like it, edit the page?"

[Mike Sealander]

Scott:
The Wiki is an advance, but it's an advance for a problem that shouldn't exist: ADSK's inability to adequately document and explain their software.
I suppose I could figure out on my own why reference planes behave the way they do. My feeling is they default to a specific volume of space depending on where levels and grids are, but I'm not sure. Once I find out, I could certainly update the Wiki, but wouldn't it be easier for ADSK to simply document reference plane behavior from the beginning?

[dlpdi5b]

I agree with all the complaints above about the shortcomings of Autodesk help files. They are pathetic.

But in the spirit of these forums (which are of great value!) I made a small addition to the wiki.

[SamuelAB]

If you read any basic Revit book, it will tell you how to use this feature.

Once again, I cannot reference this enough, please read the Revit family guide
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=13080413

Otherwise, reference planes are very similar to levels, you can host elements onto them.

Now, will someone answer this man's question? Gtarch, stay on topic please.

[hworrell]

I don't know the reason why the reference planes do this...but I've started to create scope boxes and setting the extent of my reference planes (grids, etc.) to the scope box, so that I can control all them at one time.

And yes...when will be able to trim them? (scope box is the closest thing to trimming...)

[etornberg]

Best thing about a Wiki, you can change it!! Anytime you find something you don't like, EDIT THE PAGE! :)

I don't pay a annual subscription fee to Autodesk so I can write their manual or try to improve its grammar. Conversely, I am willing to pay for knowledge. Remember in the old days when you wanted fix a car (like back when they had carburetors) you could buy an after-market manual that told you most of the basic stuff? It would work for 95% of your problems. And then if you really wanted to take it apart you could buy the shop manuals for a few hundred bucks. Here we are in the "golden age of information" and all I got was this wiki - feels like a cheap T-shirt. I know what a reference plane is, but WHY does it behave the way it does? An answer from an uncredentialed person (wiki) would be okay maybe, but if I was fixing the 911, I would sure love to get it straight from someone at Stuggart, ya know?

Specifically, when the reference plane is drawn in one plane, say XY, what causes the extents in the third, uncontrolled plane (Z)? I pulled up the default 2012 imperial template, pulled a reference plane on the first view that came up (Level 1), and it set Z extents at 20' - 8" above Level 1, and 7' - 0" below. A proper factory manual would explain this. Thank you fellow AUGIers for contemplating this.

Scott, I still love Revit, you know that.

[jeffh]

I agree with all the complaints above about the shortcomings of Autodesk help files. They are pathetic.

But in the spirit of these forums (which are of great value!) I made a small addition to the wiki.

Thank you for the contribution to the wiki. The wiki is intended to be a community resource like the discussion forums at AUGI are a community resource. By making contributions to the Revit wiki you make the help system better for the entire community.

[jeffh]

Specifically, when the reference plane is drawn in one plane, say XY, what causes the extents in the third, uncontrolled plane (Z)? I pulled up the default 2012 imperial template, pulled a reference plane on the first view that came up (Level 1), and it set Z extents at 20' - 8" above Level 1, and 7' - 0" below.

I looked into this a bit, and the 3d extents of the reference plane should respond to the existing datums in the model. There is a vlue they will extend beyond an existing datum. It looks to be about 10' above the "highest" and 1' below the "lowest" level datum. without looking deeply into the code I don't know the exact values.

If you place the reference plane in an elevation view the 3d extents of the indicator in plan are a bit more mysterious to me.

Either way in reality a reference plane is actually infinate. the indicator you are seeing is only marking it. this is one of the reasons you can "trim" them, they go on forever. If the indicator of the reference plane is not in the right position you can always right click on it to reset the indicator to maximize the 3d extents. This will reset it to the 3d extents of the model geometry.

http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/Revit/enu/2012/Help/Revit_User's_Guide/2654-Tools_an2654/2849-Datum_Ex2849

[ryan.t.ralston]

Did some researching having had the same question and came across this thread. I know I'm a little late to respond to this but figured I'd give it a shot in case someone else searches Google and comes across this, and/or those of you still active on this thread get a notification of my reply.

Anyway, I have discovered in running some tests on a blank project file that Revit (V.2020) seems to define the vertical extents of any new reference plane placed in plan view to be 2'-0" below the lowest level in the model and 8'-0" above the highest level in the model. Any reference planes place in elevation/section default to align the 3D extents of the outer most levels.

My guess is if you are having an instance where new reference planes are still exceeding these defaults, you may have; a hidden level (possibly a sea level datum?) or an object that was imported/inserted, defaulted to the internal origin and the planes are defaulting to -2' or +8' beyond the extent of those objects.

Hope that helps someone!