Interesting News

[Arnel Aguel]

Here is the link:

http://www.azcentral.com/abgnews/articles/1016AUTODESK16.html

[beegee]

Don't think there's anything new being said, is there ?

[Arnel Aguel]

I'm just curious beegee about revit's future. If you have noticed in the first quarter of this year autodesk boldy announced that revit is the future and it is their strategic application for BIM. After releasing ADT 2004 they realligned themselves saying ADT 2004 is also their BIM application. I think it is mainly because of number of users complaining why they have to change their software after all those investment and it will just eventually be dead. That's the main reason that i strongly believed because not all are willing to change as they are already happy with autocad and adt.

Now, if the scenario would be like that only few will use revit, do you think Autodesk will still continue developing revit?

[ajayholland]

I think it is mainly because of number of users complaining why they have to change... not all are willing to change as they are already happy with autocad and adt.

It's true that not all are willing to change, but I would not equate that with being "happy with AutoCad" :wink:

Revit will continue to appeal to design professionals who want better quality and fewer coordination errors than they are able to get using Acad.

-AJH

[beegee]

do you think Autodesk will still continue developing revit?

Yes, I do. If I invested $133M + in a product, I'd not leave it on the shelf. Autodesk would know the CAD industry as well as any player and would know that new technology is always slow to take hold in this market. I'm sure that would have been factored into the acquision equation. They do have a difficult marketting exercise with ADT/Revit - " just trying to keep the customers satisfied " and that has led to some confusing pr.

[Arnel Aguel]

Yes, I do. If I invested $133M + in a product, I'd not leave it on the shelf.

It's the same story as lightscape and softdesk or something which all end up dead.

I personally not against revit. In fact it is the most powerful and intuitive architectural design tool in the market today and that's why we are migrating slowly into this software. Our only concern is autodesk development direction which i would say now is user driven. Look what happened to Autodesk Viz early this year users were asking on any development for viz and they said all the features and enhancement of viz will now be in Max 5 and 6, therefore giving a hint to users that it will not develop viz anymore but instead give them the path for crossgrade to max 6. After hearing that users are not willing to go to max 6 but rather try to look for other alternative software that can also do the job and have a clear future direction of the development Autodesk suddenly changed their mind and announced that viz 5 is under development. This is very annoying strategy.

[beegee]

It's the same story as lightscape and softdesk or something which all end up dead.

I don't think its quite the same thing as Lightscape or Softdesk. Those were relatively cheap ( by comparison ) competitor knockouts. If Autodesk wanted to knock out Revit, there would have been an entirely different strategy to the current play.


This is very annoying strategy.

Yes, I agree, it can be annoying and confusing to firms who are debating a large investment in technology. But, I think for a large firm, looking at a long term strategy, it would not be a choice between ADT and Revit, but between Revit, Archicad and Microstation. I'm sure the pros and cons balance sheet between those 3 could be a very extensive and time consuming exercise.

[PeterJ]

I heard it rumoured recently that Autodesk had 80 developes working on Architectural Studio to produce release 3. They have recently produced inventor and must have been aware of Parametric Technology Corporation's efforts before the founders of Revit Technology Corporation left that organisation to set out on their own AEC product.

I think that ultimately Autodesk must have a good idea what it would cost them to create a new parametric CAD engine and probably took a view on the capital value of RTC on this basis. I don't believe for one moment that they will set it aside but you have to remember that they have a far higher installed user base for ADT and it would be commercial suicide to drop those people without some degree of ongoing support.

[sbrown]

Currently they must keep ADT and support it, Revit can't be used right now on the scale of projects many firms use. If they made everyone switch and killed ADT, then Revit would Fail because ADT users would try to use it on large projects, find out the hard way that you just can't do a large project yet in revit and they'd go looking to someone else to supply thier cad needs.

Revit needs to grow and is with each release, note 6.0 will be out shortly and then probably 1 or 2 more releases before the next ADT, I'm convinced Revit is the future(note the definition of future is Not here yet).

I love Revit and never want to work on anything else, but if I had to do a skyscraper, I couldn't do it in revit, therefore Autodesk can't unleash it as the only solution, again because its not a solution for many project types.

It is however the best solution available in my opinion for small - med size firms with small - med size projects. The one man operation can soar using revit where he couldn't have produced on his own what he can with revit.

Its just a matter of time before the revit developers figure out how to make the model more scalable for use on All project types, once this occurs then its game over for ADT. Note that if a product can save you time and money, you won't care about what you invested in a previous product.

Take the horse and buggy to the car, would you not get a car because you have so much hay in the barn?

[designer56644]

One other aside...

Software development (graphical/cad) seems to push the hardware envelope pretty far out there. As processor speeds and ram continues to grow, some of the scalability/latency issues in revit might also begin to ebb.

(yummmm, 5ghz. p6 w 12 gig of ram ;) )

Anyone using some of the more bleeding edge hard drive systems with marked improvement?

[Scott D Davis]

Thats true... I used to do stuff in AutoCAD that pushed the limits of the hardware. In college, I was using r12 for DOS, doing solid modeling in AutoCAD on a 33Mhz machine. Then our college CAD department got brand new DX2 66Mhz machines! Man, we were in heaven! We could then issue the Hide command, go get lunch, and when we got back, it would almost be done.

Ah....the old CAD days.....

[beegee]

I'm running it on a Zenith Z-160, and I gotta say , its a bit clunky.

But I'm looking forward to a significant improvement with my new Kaypro 2X.

[hand471037]

I think that we'll see a huge performance gain when Revit can take advantage of the new 64 bit systems soon to come. It's my limited understanding that 64-bit systems can run relational databases much faster; that and the ability to have much more ram than 2 gigs should keep Revit really happy in the future.

Now, if AutoDesk would only release Revit for OS X 10.3 or Linux then we could see what it would be like on a 64 bit system *today* :twisted: But instead we'll have to wait probably two years or so before MicroSoft get's it's act together and release a 64-bit native verson of Windows Whatever.

And to add to the comment about AutoDesk buying out Revit to save the money on making something from scratch to compete; remember that PTC technologies scared AutoDesk in the past; when PTC released it's parametric CAD system for Mechnical engineers, AutoDesk only had Mechanical Desktop to compete. It's my understanding that they lost a lot of marketshare to PTC, and it forced them to write a totally new program from the ground up, AutoDesk Inventor, to compete. Which took a long time and was really expensive, and now PTC is always going to be a major competitor for that market. Then some of the blokes from PTC spin off and start a company to make parametric software for the construction industry... so it makes a lot of sense for them to have bought Revit out, one to get that next-generation AEC package without having to make it from scratch, and two to keep someone smaller and hungry out of that market.

[Steve_Stafford]

If you can believe the market hype...sounds like Solid Works is the mechanical design app to beat lately?? That's the buzz at the local Comm. College anywho.

[hand471037]

That's what I hear as well. Check out thier new 3D software for industrial design. Impressive stuff!

[nrenfro]

Autodesk new sympathetic ear has had a wonderful impact on Autocad 2004. In addition I believe it has been this finger on the pulse approach that has made Revit what it is today. It is my understanding that most ADT seats are not being used as BIM's. This tells me that there is a strong interest in the concept, but no one has made it clear to the masses how to do it. I believe Revit is the proper tool for this, and not ADT for reasons that have been repeatedly posted all over this site. What is missing from the tangled corporate thing that is Autodesk is clarity. While it has been stated that Revit is the engine to this new way of designing we have not been told how. How will the ADT users be be moved over? How will ADT support continue while encouraging Revits' development (they appear be competing with each other)? What is going to define the Autodesk family of products in the further... Architectural Studio, Viz... Revit? What we need to confidentially embrace what's to come is strong leadership and direction from the company that led us into the digital world of drafting and design.

[Scott Hopkins]

All great questions – unfortunately I don’t think we can expect any verbal assurances coming from AutoDesk in the near future. Being a publicly held company I believe there are legality issues in making promises about software that does not exist yet. I tried to off-handedly to ask a few of your question to one of the guys at Revit support. He was very guarded with his answers. He said he had gotten into trouble a few too many times by speaking out of turn. Mum is the word until Revit 6.0

[hand471037]

None of this is new, really. I remember reading a book ten years ago, that was written thirty years ago (!), about what at that time (70's) people thought the future of computers would be. And a CAD system very much like a 3D parametric system is what it talked about. and I remember that there were experimental parametric CAD systems I've read about that were done in the 70's. The real issue here isn't who comes up with this idea first; but who can make a system that is accessible to the most people. Computers were around for a long time before things like the Apple II and the C 64 made it feasble for someone to have a home computer; the internet was around for a long time before someone came up with a 'browser' and the web and made it accessible; I think it's the same thing with CAD, that until Revit came along there were systems that could do the same parametric things but weren't accessible enough for our industry to really use effectively.

[bmadsen]

About Autodesk's strategy: My observation is that Autodesk makes changes on their quarterly calendar, and I believe we will have more information for this debate after the end of October.

I agree with the comments that it would be foolish for Autodesk to dump the ADT installed base. It's not easy for Autodesk to support both BIM models, but it's probably the best thing for them to do now. It will not be too long until Revit has so much to offer that it will be the obvious choice for the next "upgrade". Then the ADT installed base will jump to Revit.

For me, the perceived uncertainty does not create any anxiety. Revit is clearly a successful product and I'm going to use it. We're getting a productivity payoff and other benefits now. As we expand Revit's use throughout our firm, the payoff grows. I don't need to worry much about future software while the current software is generating benefits.

[MikeJarosz]

My firm is currently agonizing over what to do about the future. We MUST have a system capable of large building projects. We often have jobs with 30, 40 or 50 architects on board, not to mention consultants. Beegee was right: the choices seem to be Revit, Archicad & Microstation.

I think the argument that users will cling to Acad at all costs is overstated. Despite the official status of Acad in our firm, we already have users bringing in their own copies of Maya, Rhino, FormZ. We had one prima donna who would only work in Microstation. And so on...

Many are using these alternate systems because Acad cannot easily do the geometry that is currently in vogue. Gehry uses an aircraft CAD system (CATIA). Imagine Disney Hall done in Acad. And I don't mean just presentation drawings.

Once these other systems are in the door and the designs are done, the tech staff has to build them. Did you ever try to draw a non linear heptazoidal perplexoid in ADT? That roof is going to leak!

[hand471037]

Most Architects & Designers only care about getting the job done. Hense why they will use whatever tools theY have access to that they feel best fit thier workflow & mindset.

The only people I've seen that are fanatically attached to any system are those same people's who career, or who's indentity, is heavly invested into said system. I worked with an CAD Manager that stoutly refused to even *install* Revit on her computer, let alone learn anything about it beyond strange f*cked up ideas and conjecture she had gotten second hand from other CAD managers, simply because Revit didn't have an API and she consitered herself a programmer. My Uncle just simply can't understand why anyone would ever buy a Mac or use Linux, ever, and constantly brags about how he's a 'power user', when we only plays games on his computer, and he too is full of strange ideas that have no basis when it comes to anything non-Windows (and also bitterly complains about his constant computer problems). The guy who lives across the street from me refuses to talk to me about cars because he's into 50's Chevys and I drive a 60's Dodge. :roll:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's more important to pay attention to what you personally can really do with the system, stay objective, and to not pay to much mind to anyone else. Ghery's use of Catia rose from a real need of his office; not because of some sales guy convincing someone that it was the best tool for the job. You should get demos of all three systems, and run test jobs on them, and go with the one that best fits your office.

Unless the software is open source, you're taking a gamble anyways; for there is no gauruntee that the company that makes it won't change the deal, go out of business, or kill the product; meaning you won't be able to use it legally anymore. With commerical software, you're only paying to rent it's use, and nothing more, no matter what 'support' and 'investment' the salespeople talk about. Plan ahead, stay flexible, and keep your mind on the big picture.

[Wes Macaulay]

My firm is currently agonizing over what to do about the future. We MUST have a system capable of large building projects. We often have jobs with 30, 40 or 50 architects on board, not to mention consultants. Beegee was right: the choices seem to be Revit, Archicad & Microstation.

Many are using these alternate systems because Acad cannot easily do the geometry that is currently in vogue. Gehry uses an aircraft CAD system (CATIA). Imagine Disney Hall done in Acad. And I don't mean just presentation drawings.

Once these other systems are in the door and the designs are done, the tech staff has to build them. Did you ever try to draw a non linear heptazoidal perplexoid in ADT? That roof is going to leak!
Here's my take on Revit, Archicad and uStation:

Revit: great for most projects architects would undertake. Some limitations with the geometries it can model (Archicad is way more limited if it's any consolation), and you'd want to divide megaprojects up into separate Revit files if possible

Archicad: bugware; too complicated; old platform; use only if you're sticking to the Mac; (but thanks anyway for getting the virtual building model rolling for many firms)

Microstation: complicated, powerful, models almost anything; builds buildings from multiple files (xrefs, basically); serious training investment required

Any way you slice it, I find discussions of non linear heptazoidal perplexoids distressing, since if I can't model it in Revit I'm going to be really insecure. (Hey - was that a pun? I promise I will keep the day job...)

[John K.]

Enjoy,


alt.cad.revit >> Revit answers "directly" on 2 Jan
'02...

Subject: Revit answers "directly" on 2 Jan '02...
Date: 25 Feb 2002 21:57:03 -0500
From: "John K" <john_kosty@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.cad.revit


<<snip>>

...3. Have your company's founders ever openly
discussed what we like to call the "What would be our
price to 'go away'?" -- Not trying to act like a
smart-*** here, we're quite serious. At some point, I
can envision a rep from Autodesk showing up with a
suitcase full of money and asking nicely for you guys
to leave the playing field. I expect to see lots of
FUD on the web on this very same topic. I would like
to be able to give our boss a well-thought-out answer
because he got burned several years ago when Arris
left the UNIX platform. We like what we've seen thus
far and are seriously considering a phase-out of our
current setup.

RSVP & thanks,

John K

And their response:

<<snip>>

Subject: RE: Ping... [Quick question]

Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:41:05 -0500



John,

That's a fair question. Rather than bore you with a
treatise on the AEC CAD market, here are some facts to
ponder.

1. OUR FOUNDERS HELPED START AND THEN FUELED PTC'S
DOMINANACE IN THE MECHANICAL/MANUFACTURING MARKET:
Leonid Raiz and Irwin Jungreis were part of the
handful of thinktanks that started Parametric
Technology Corporation's rise to stardom. They are
trained mathematicians and founded a new type of math
called parametrics. Once they understood the power of
this invention, it was to be an obvious aid to anyone
or any software program that must keep track of
objects and the relationships of these objects to one
another. Rather than taking this invention to an

established company, selling it and retiring at a
young age, they stuck with PTC. That single invention
launched a product called Pro/Engineer. Right now PTC
is a multi-billion dollar company and is the defacto
standard for manufacturing engineers. (Interestingly
enough, once PTC started kicking the **** out of
Autodesk, Autodesk "discovered" the AEC market and
started working on what would end up being
ADT....which they claim to be what...parametric.

It's not in the slightest.) So, in essence, rather
than fight something

that is clearly superior, Autodesk chose to run.

2. PART OF OUR MONEY COMES FROM A FEW VENTURE
PARTNERS, NOTABLY

DASSAULT SYTEMS: Dassault Systems is the #1 maker of
CAD products in Europe and has beaten Autodesk in
nearly every arena except AEC. It just so happens

that while Autodesk was sleeping, Dassault bought the
code for the "kernel"

that Autodesk has used to build every version of
AutoCAD right out from

under them. It is the essence of the product. Right
now, Dassault accepts millions of dollars a year from
Autodesk to give Autodesk the rights to use the engine
to their own software!! Rather than developing their
own architectural software, Dassault is funding Leonid
and Irwin's proven genius against Autodesk. You see,
it's not as simple as Revit deciding to sell, we would
have to run it by the board, which has Autodesk
killers on it.

3. WE DON'T NEED TO: I was the second salesperson
hired at Revit. I have watched it grow from a group of
developers to an industry force. We were so
immediately successful in the US during the summer,
that we opened up shop in London and started selling
the U.K. and Europe in the fall. By last spring we had
set up distribution channels in the Middle East and

Africa. This past fall we expanded to Australia and
the Far East. This is no garage operation. It's been
exciting to watch!

4: I BELIEVE THEY'VE ALREADY TRIED: Simple answer from
us....laughter!

We are determined to go public and become the defacto
standard in the architectural industry. Despite
architects in love with the status

quo, we have grown at an inspiring pace. We are
mentioned in the AEC CAD press right alongside of
companies that have been putting out software for 15
years. If we are comparable (perish that thought!) in
two years of selling, what will we be in another two?!


We have already seen firms large and small use Revit
to much success

both in the US and abroad. Success aside, Revit is
making them more money with less tedium. It is
allowing them to explore more design alternatives in
the same amount of time and is giving their
consultants the raw data from which to extract the
information they need to actually get things in the
ground. Revit is allowing the architect to once again
be the "master builder",

who has all the the data on hand.

If I spent a few more minutes at this, I'm sure I'd
have a few more points for you, but I think this is
enough for now.

By the way, take a bow. The VP of Client Services
answered your

questions. Imagine getting anyone with a title at any
other software company to pay attention! That is just
one example of why we are different and why we are
successful.

David D. Northup Regional Manager - Southeast U.S.
Revit Technology Corporation

--snip--

OK, the shock has worn off and I'll likely hold onto
my (personal) subscription for the moment but all bets
are off since my CAD manager and the owner of the firm
heard the news...

jk

[aggockel50321]

One of the strengths of Revit, I think, is the ability to import geometry from the other competing CAD systems, as well as the ability to import & export images, etc.

I think I'd rather see Revit continue this approach, and expand these abilities to other software applications, (not just CAD apps., MS Word, Excell, etc.).

The other major strength of Revit is the short learning curve. The danger of having Revit being able to do all the things mentioned in various wish lists, is that it's going to end up like ADT & Archicad, cumbersome & a bear to learn...

Revit might not be able to model Gehry's roofs, but if it can be done in another app & imported, then I'm all for it.

In that vein, I think it would be helpful if more of these software vendors would adopt Revit's pre-Autodesk subscription plan, lease it for a month, quarter, year, whatever...

I still don't understand what I own once I buy an Autodesk software license....

[hand471037]

You don't own anything. Your paying for the privlage of use under thier terms, with no certainty that it's going to work. That's all you're ever paying for with any commercial software. Kinda like being a Sharecropper. I'm not sayig that this is horrible or wrong; but it's the truth, and you need to keep that in mind whenever you're dealing with commercial software. It's easy to get wrapped up in Marketing and Sales glitz...

Someone a whole lot smarter than me once said that Bill Gate's major accomplishment wasn't coding, or MicroSoft, or anything else; but was the fact that he figured out a way to sell someone a disk in an mostly-empty box and have them think they bought something of real value, an 'investment', and be happy about it. :)