Coffered ceiling and Trim profile sweeps. How to?

[csteinke.design220819]

Hey Revit gurus, 3?s

1- I'm looking to make a Coffered ceiling and sweep it around a perimeter.

2- Create a trim profile and be able to sweep it around a complicated line (w/o intersecting errors)

3- create a void for fluted edges in Wall Panel trim work

I've added the .rfa of the ceiling profile that I want to sweep and perimeter as well the trim profile with a perimeter line to sweep along. Also are images to help show where I'm trying to achieve with the ceiling and voids for the Wall panel.

Your help is greatly appreciated!

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Welcome to the forums.
The first thing you want to do is STOP use masses for these families.
The second thing I would do is take a step back and decide if you need to have these as separate families at all or if it might be better to model them as integral sweeps that can be placed at the same time as your walls.
Scott Brown did a very thorough presentation at AU (several years running if memory serves) and you can download the documentation here if you are on subscription and have access to the AU archives.
http://au.autodesk.com/?nd=class&session_id=7074
Take a look at this document and some of the thought processes behind his workflow and it will open your eyes to endless options (and that's a good thing ;) )

[csteinke.design220819]

Awesome. Thanks for the input! I'm going to check out the AU link today. I don't have a subscription, but I believe if it was prior to 2011 then the video files are free to members as well.

As you probably can tell, I've never had any formal education or attended any seminars for using Revit. Everything I know has been from teaching myself. "Custom" profiles and editing families is something new for me.

Any input and constructive criticism is greatly appreciated and welcome!

Thanks again,
Chad

[csteinke.design220819]

I have watched over 10hrs of tutorials today on making families etc. I still can't get the profile for the ceiling to work. I get an error every time. Have any ideas or have you ever done such a profile?

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Hi Chad,
The 'self-intersecting geometry issues arise from trying to get the sweep too perfect. Revit won't allow you to bring the bottom point of the sweep to a perfect point. it will create a line segment of '0' length causing the issue. See the attached sample file.
If you zoom in on the one corner you should see that it gets the tight corner pretty close to zero (about 1.5m before it breaks). If you can find a millwork sub that can build to the kind of tolerance please send their number to me (along with the name of the framer who can build the supporting wall) ;)
Hopefully this gets you closer to where you need to go.

[csteinke.design220819]

Thanks for your help. I couldn't open your file because Revit isn't backwards compatible I guess????
I did what you recommended... I think. I did a Component-> Model in place -> Put Reference Plane where it needed to be and Did a Straight Sweep 8 Times around my parameter. I'm guessing that's not the correct way, but I can't seem to get it to work any other.
I'll let you know if I get a contractor and Millworker who is an Ouber perfectionist!

How this project came about... I was asked by the firm I'm interning at to model a current project that they are working on in Acad and mimic it as best as I could in Revit. I've never dealt with organic shapes, intricate detail, etc. so this is all new to me. After watching the Screencast that you linked me to, I now feel I am only starting to scratch the surface of Revit. :?

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Chad,
I'll try to get you a 2011 version of what I showed you but I'm not at my computer right now.
Look into integral sweeps as part of your walls rather than trying to model this a separate family. To do that you create a 'profile' family that you can add to the wall. As you place the wall the profile is also modeled.

[csteinke.design220819]

Hi Dimitri,
I have a new problem and I was hoping you could steer me into the right direction. I made a new Column with the "Column" Template but when I go to place it on various floors it stuck to Ground Floor or 0'-00". It's weird because I can see the base (5" square extrusion) moving floor to floor, but the rest of my column (body and crown molding) doesn't move. Whats your thoughts?
I've opened up the Generic Floor template and loaded my custom column into it and than loaded into my project. If I do that, it works...downside is that the end user no longer has the options of changing materials to the base, body and crown.
I've attached the family file and maybe you can upload it to a generic project w/ multiple floors and tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Thanks for your time and help!
Chad

[gtarch]

If you search around, one method that is suggested for making coffers and crowns is to make them from Fascias.

[damon.sidel]

Hey, Chad.

Just took a look at your column family. The height of your column doesn't change because the geometry doesn't reference the Upper Ref Level. When creating a family, you have to tell the geometry how to move when you change the size of things. Also, consider using extrusions more often and the sweeps less. Everything (except your column capitol) can be an extrusion and you'll find it much easier working with extrusions.

I've attached a family modified from your own. You'll see that I've created the capitol at the Upper Ref Level and added a reference plane at the bottom of the capitol and the top of the base. The reveals in in the sides of the column are now extrusions with their extents aligned and locked to the two reference planes I added. If you move the Upper Ref Level up or down, everything should move together. When you create a family, you should always "flex" all your parameters to make sure everything moves the way you expect it to.

Good luck. You jumped into Revit on a project with a lot of detail. Not an easy way to learn, but I'm sure you'll be rewarded if you stick to it.

Cheers,
Damon

[csteinke.design220819]

Thanks guys for the awesome input! I'll give the column a look tonight or over the weekend Damon. I appreciate your advice!

[csteinke.design220819]

Well I was anxious to open your file Damon, but the "Open any Revit file type" under the file tab apparently doesn't like files created in previous version of Revit. Not backwards compatible... or forward compatible. I don't even know if that's correct terminology, but that's ridiculous. I'll have to look into later. Thanks again though for your time and effort!

[damon.sidel]

I edited it in 2012. What version are you using? I'd be happy to post a 2011 version if that would be helpful.

[csteinke.design220819]

I'm running 2011, but upgrading to 2012 over the wknd. How do you get the "Top Reference" to snap to the top of the crown? I placed the Top Reference on the top of the crown and tried to add a parameter (Lower Ref to Upper Ref.), but I get an error
"Labeling this dimension would overconstrain the sketch."

Thanks

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Chad,
I have attached a 2011 version of the integral sweep I mentioned before.
You'll notice that the thickness of the supporting wall can affect when you get your intersecting geometry warning.
One note: what I'm suggesting, and the method described in Scott's documentation, has the sweep as an integral part of the wall assembly not added as a secondary element. Not necessarily the solution all the time but it does save a lot of manipulating multiple objects.
Have a look.

The column constraint issue has to do with the default behaviour for columns. You can't add a parameter for the height of the column it is controlled inside the project by the top and base constraints of the column.

[csteinke.design220819]

Can the extrusions use profiles that I create? That was the main reason why I went with the sweep vs. the void extrusion.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Yes. Create profile families. Profiles are used for everything from curtain mullions to fascias to slab edges. They can be sketched in-place, as you did, or saved as re-usable families so you don't have to recreate the sketch every time you want to use it.

[csteinke.design220819]

Sorry if these seem like a bunch of "newb" questions, but I can never seem to find the answers via search unless I ask.
I have been making profiles within the "profile template" for the reasons you mentioned...not having to re-create them over and over.
Once I enter the Extrusions type I don't see where it lets you load a profile...am I missing something here? Obviously I must be.

[damon.sidel]

OK, I think there are two issues here:
1. Profiles for use in walls sweeps.
2. The profiles used in the column family.

For the column family, I don't think you gain anything from using a profile family to create the fluting in the column. Just create an extrusion and sketch the shape you want it to take.

For the wall sweeps that Dimitri is talking about, that is where you'll create a profile family, load it into your project, and use it in a wall type.

Now, back to getting your column to flex correctly...
1. In the Ref. Plan view, start a new void extrusion.
2. Sketch the (negative) shape of the flute(s) and finish the extrusion.
3. In an elevation view that shows the void you just created, draw a ref. plane at the top of the column base and the bottom of the column capitol.
4. Dimension from the Lower Ref. Level to the ref. plane at the top of the column base. Lock the dimension or make it a parameter.
5. Dimension from the ref. plane at the bottom of the column capitol to the Upper Ref. Level. Lock the dimension or make it a parameter.
6. Using the align tool, first click the ref. plane at the top of the column base, then the bottom of the void extrusion. A unlocked padlock symbol shows up: click it to lock it. Again with the align tool, click the ref. plane at the bottom of the column capitol then the top of the void extrusion. Click the lock again.
7. Select the Upper Ref. Level and change it's height by clicking on its dimension to edit. The column height should change and the void extrusion for the fluting should, too.
I've attached a step-by-step image of this process and the 2011 column family started as in the images. See if those help. Creating families is a very difficult thing to learn.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Once I enter the Extrusions type I don't see where it lets you load a profile...am I missing something here? Obviously I must be.
Unfortunately extrusions don't give you the option to use a pre-defined profile. All other forms do and you access the profiles from the ribbon when you define the form.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Damon,
Nice summary. I would humbly suggest that the flutes be done by adding geometry (solid) rather than subtracting (void) for a couple of reasons.
First - Voids tend to be less efficient when creating families and, personally, I would find it easier to define the final outline of what I wanted rather than defining what I wanted to take away.
Second - I would probably prefer to add the fluting as trim around whatever the structural column is. This would allow for more flexibility in take-off, pricing, construction sequencing, display control etc. More of a 'big picture' approach than may be required but I tend to like to do things this way.

[csteinke.design220819]

So are going to make a model so I can compare :lol:

[csteinke.design220819]

So I checked out your column and Thank You! It definitely helped explain some problems I was having. Two more questions about the column.

Why do you say less of Sweeps and More of Extrusions? Is that personal preference? I find sweeps easy and loading profiles extremely helpful!

On the crown molding of my column seems to be having problems now and I'm not sure how to go about fixing it. Problem is when I go to flex. It flexes fine one way but when I go to put it back to one of the other parameters that I've set up (2'x2' --> 2'x2") it doesn't go back :?:

[csteinke.design220819]

I'm really starting to pound my head against the wall at this point. I took your suggestions on laying out the column, minus the extrusions, but I still can't get this column to jump from one floor to another without problems. If you have a minute check it out, I must be overlooking something, but I've spent more than 2 hours trying every alternative I could think of, but can't get it to work properly.
Thanks for your help

[damon.sidel]

Damon,
Nice summary. I would humbly suggest that the flutes be done by adding geometry (solid) rather than subtracting (void) for a couple of reasons.
First - Voids tend to be less efficient when creating families and, personally, I would find it easier to define the final outline of what I wanted rather than defining what I wanted to take away.
Second - I would probably prefer to add the fluting as trim around whatever the structural column is. This would allow for more flexibility in take-off, pricing, construction sequencing, display control etc. More of a 'big picture' approach than may be required but I tend to like to do things this way.

Dimitri,

Thanks for the feedback. Those are all very good reasons to do it differently than I did. I was working mostly to make Chad's family work, but your I can see that your method would be better. Particularly not using a void, you can make a single extrusion for the column. Would that make it more difficult to flex the column's width and depth, though? With voids, you can position and dimension them. If you really wanted, you could array them to control the number of flutes depending on the column dimensions.

For create the fluting as trim, would you make this an architectural column family and use it in conjunction with a structural column? Or would it be something else?

Chad, since this is your first custom family, I think your issues are not so much about the column family and more about family creation in general. I'd highly recommend watching a few video tutorials if you haven't already. Family creation is quite tricky. As for the sweeps vs. extrusions, I think of it this way: if it can be extruded, I use an extrusion. If the profile has to follow a non-linear path, I use a sweep. So for the fluted column and the base (as you drawn them), it is just an extrusion. The column capitol cannot be drawn as an extrusion, so a sweep makes sense.

Your family wasn't flexing because the body and capitol of the column were not referencing your "Column Top" reference plane. I've edit your family again (the column body is just an extrusion, no voids, as Dimitri suggested) and set the references correctly. When I redrew the capitol, I set the reference plane of the sweep's path to the "Column Top". Keep at it. It takes quite some time to master families.

[jahangiri.sepide136994]

Thanks a lot from all