columns and structural columns

[gnl]

Does anyone know why Revit has these 2 components instead of only 1?

and why is it that columns clean up correctly with walls automatically when they intersect while structural columns don't?

[Arnel Aguel]

I have the same problem with structural column when i extend the base level below grade so can i connect it with an isolated footing it won't clean up properly in plan view. So, i have to use column not the structural one.

[LRaiz]

See this thread for explanations. (http://www.zoogdesign.com/forums/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=886) :idea:

[beegee]

And if you want to cut to the chase, here's Leonid's succinct summary of that thread :-

Architectural columns are designed to serve as bumps/protrusions on walls that columns are joined to. Architectural columns take finish materials from host walls and wrap them appropriately. Structural columns on the other hand typically have their own materials, are not intended to be joined to walls and take wall finish materials. Structural columns are usually placed inside of an architectural column enclosure. This is the conceptual model that attempts to provide design elements that correspond to construction reality. HTH.

[Arnel Aguel]

Sorry, but the link doesn't resolve my problem.

My situation is just a simple CMU wall which i have to insert a concrete structural column along the wall. If the base constraints for wall and the structural column are at the same level say level 1 the CMU wall will clean-up nicely with the structural column in plan view as what i wanted. But in my case i want my structural column to extend below grade so that i can connect it with my isolated rectagular footing for my structural foundation detailing later on. When i change the base level of my structural column to extend below grade say T.O. Isolated Footing the wall in level 1 plan view will not clean up with the structural column anymore.

Am i missing something here?

[beegee]

Arnel,

I can't recreate the problem you are having. I guess I'm unsure what "clean up " is causing a problem.

I set up a structural column wrapped in a CMU wall and extending down to a pad footing. See attached.

[Arnel Aguel]

That is not my case beegee, the column is in the wall itself or shall we say the wall is abutting the column and i don' t need an enclosure (the wall and the column will just be eventually finished with cement plaster). It is just a plane CMU wall abutting to a structural concrete column.

[gnl]

And if you want to cut to the chase, here's Leonid's succinct summary of that thread :-

Architectural columns are designed to serve as bumps/protrusions on walls that columns are joined to. Architectural columns take finish materials from host walls and wrap them appropriately. Structural columns on the other hand typically have their own materials, are not intended to be joined to walls and take wall finish materials. Structural columns are usually placed inside of an architectural column enclosure. This is the conceptual model that attempts to provide design elements that correspond to construction reality. HTH.

Well I now understand correctly the difference (sorry for not looking into the forum before...) and how I am supposed to use the 2 components. But wouldn't it be easier if structural columns automatically created architectural columns once inserted (or maybe a checkbox in the properties window - instance or type - or maybe even better in the options bar)?
This way you would have fewer model components and most of all you would not need to insert 2 components to create the 1 visualization needed. Maybe applying the nested family concept?

[Nic M.]

I agree with Gnl,

Why not make it the same as with wall's? Properies - structural usage- ?
I feel its a trap for beginners like myself.

Also if I apply a solid fill material to a structural column and I cut it, the material doesn't show. If I apply a solid fill in the surface pattern it does show on the surface and when the structural column is cut???
Is this a known bug? Didn't find it on the bug list.
Or is this a: " Wife!, where are my socks? Right in front of you dear."

[beegee]

That is not my case beegee, the column is in the wall itself or shall we say the wall is abutting the column and i don' t need an enclosure (the wall and the column will just be eventually finished with cement plaster). It is just a plane CMU wall abutting to a structural concrete column.

Arnel,
It might be best if you post an image of what you have, or what you want to achieve.

[Arnel Aguel]

Here is what i have, hope that somebody will point me to the right direction.


In ADT you can force a clean up to any wall obstruction whether it is a structural column or any 3d objects by issuing the comman wall interference. How about in revit how do we go about this type of situation.

[beegee]

Got me beat Arnel,

I cannot recreate that problem. Mine seems to work fine.

The left hand one has the wall running stright through, but cleans up visually in plan and elevation.
The right hand one has the wall cut each side of the structural column. This would be my preference anyway.

[Arnel Aguel]

I don't seem to agree with your preference beegee, in the first place when you layout your space you don't know exactly yet where the structural columns would be, hence you will just create a wall enclosure of your building. Once you got the structural framing layout that's the only time you can insert it to your drawing right?

If that's the case how much time you have to spend just to edit all the walls to cut for every face of the column? Should it be an automatic process to let the wall clean up whenever you are going to insert an structural column or at least you have a command to force the clean up.

[beegee]

The one on the left has the wall running through it and appears correct in plan for clean up ?
Its only in 3D you can see the lines of the wall continuing, and at that stage, you could cut your wall if you wanted.

[Arnel Aguel]

Mine does not behave that way beegee as you can see from my image. The plan view doesn't clean up properly when i extend the base level below grade. It will only clean up properly if both the wall and the column have the same base level.

Did you use structural column and cmu wall?

[Arnel Aguel]

I've tried the other type of walls but still the same problem. I have not tried it with the other templates yet i was just using the default metric template. Does it have something to do with the template?

I would like to hear from other users also if they can recreate my problem.

[beegee]

Yes, the wall is Generic 140 masonry and the column is M_Concrete square. Both standard metric families.

Have you tried a different template ?

[Phil Palmer]

I have had a similar problem but only in my Ceiling plan views
For soe reason the 'cleanup' situation is missing in ceiling plans

I think this is recognised as a problem ?

[Arnel Aguel]

Can anybody confirm that this really is a program defect.

Any other thought?

[Arnel Aguel]

Now i'm soooooo sad it seems i'm the only one getting this sort of problem and everyone else is just happy with their program. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Steve_Stafford]

Are you using the latest build? Grasping at straws...

[Arnel Aguel]

Steve i'm using 5.1 build 20030502_2019. I know that there is a latest build for 5.1 but i don't want to get into the hassle of downloading and still it won't solve my problem.

Hope that somebody can shed some light.

[Steve_Stafford]

I asked because there were some structural element display issues that were addressed in recent builds. I can't say for sure it wasn't in the build you now use and won't help but then I can't say it isn't in the latest either. I can't help thinking it was this latest build because I posted the thread you were referred to prior to the last build and it helped my issues then.

If I were in your shoes, I'd contact Revit support and ask them to work with you through the issue and perhaps send them your file. Can you duplicate the issue in a new project too? Have you tried deleting the wall that won't conform and sketch a new one in it's place?

Hope you get some satisfaction....

[Arnel Aguel]

Thanks steve this issue has already been addressed in the latest build.

[gregcashen]

The July release did indeed resolve some structural display issues that affected how structural elements showed up in sections...don't know about plan views...I make it a policy to always upgrade to the latest release before looking for other solutions, 'cause that is what Revit will tell you to do anyway.