Printing - does color matter?

[barathd]

I am using color to distinguish line types - when I print getting some weird results. Some lines don't print at all others are light. Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance.

[dalewww]

I am having the same problems. At first I kept the line weight that were shipped with the CD. The line weights from that were absolutely horrible. So I changed the line weights and colors to match what we use in Autocad. This has worked better but I now have to go into the Object style settings and change all the different components to the line weights.

I am also having a problem with line weights within the wall systems. We want some to be light, some to be medium, and the outer to be thick. I have not found the way to change the individual line weights of those pieces.

I am also having a real problem with using color with a black background. To make the shading work out in all views the black background does not work because of using color to define wall materials and such. This is a big, big deal to me. I have had issues with other software not being set up for black backgrounds and I don't understand why. Anyone who is on a computer these days should know the long term ramifications of looking at a white screen all day. My eyes are bad enough. I don't need them worse because the software company doesn't provide a suitable background.

Anyway, I am currently working to making the line weights and colors work for us. It is a try and print type thing for me right now. I have not found the right combination yet.

Help would be appreciated.

[Scott D Davis]

Barath - Revit doesn't print lineweight by color. It prints colors as colors. If you are printing to a black and white or grayscale printer, it's going to interpret those colors to the closest shade of gray. I would try to leave as much black and white as possible, and move away from the AutoCAD days where color for linework was more of a necessity than it is now.

Dale - I wouldn't try to treat Revit like AutoCAD. It's probably not the best solution to try and make Revit look like AutoCAD with the same colors and a black background. I understand your concerns about a white background, but I now find it much easier to draw on white. You can make it easier on your eyes by changing some brightness/contrast settings on your monitor. I would think this is the better solution since AutoCAD is one of the few programs that allows for a black background. Word, Excel, almost every other software is white background. I'm not so sure that a white background is really detrimental to one's sight.

[dalewww]

Scott: I would agree with you not to treat Revit like AutoCAD. However, to ease the transition, I am trying to make the things people here are familiar with the same. I have asked everyone what they want to keep and black background with color lines was the top criteria. Everything the reps said showed this to be possible.

It seems that this is not true. So what you are saying is that no matter what line thickness I have for a line, if I designate that line as being a color, for ease of representation of line thickness (because I have already noticed that without the thin line button toggled, the display is absolutely horrid), when that line plots it will not be black if I tell the printer to print black and white.

With that said, and I think you answer will be yes to that, then there is now way of creating a wall that prints both color, for color presentation, and black and white for office prints and principle markups and CDs without changing a thing except how you intend on printing.

Barath; You seem to be in the same boat as I am. It works better this way and is easier not only to differentiate between line weights but also is easier on the eyes.

I check older post and found this one by yourself


I am 51 years of age and I have already had cataracts removed from both eyes. After 15 years of staring at a screen 12 hours a day 7 days a week your eyes get screwed. Yes I would have never ever wanted a black background years ago - now I find it hard to get by without it. Furthermore why offer the option if this is what it looks like?
Regards
Dick Barath

Bright white is very hard on eyes. May not be scientific but very much so on mine. I wear sunglasses on a cloudy days when there is blanket of snow on the ground...just way too bright. A guy in my office said this," Stare a a light bulb on vs. off. Which do you think will effect your eyes more?" All of my software that defaults to white, as you mentioned Scott, are all toned down with color. As far as other software and black backgrounds go, Softplan, Vectorworks, Archicad, 3D studio max, Arris, Microstation, Desktop, Datacad, etc. support black backgrounds and still plot black lines not grey, and can switch to color with no problems.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but this subject deals with alot of issues for us here as to how we work and how our drawings look. From what you said so far, Scott, and from some other posts, we are going to have to change the way we draw and the way our drawings look. I don't think the principles here are going to like hearing that. There has got to be more answers to this dilemma than this.

[aaronrumple]

Scott: I would agree with you not to treat Revit like AutoCAD. However, to ease the transition, I am trying to make the things people here are familiar with the same. I have asked everyone what they want to keep and black background with color lines was the top criteria. Everything the reps said showed this to be possible.


Making your users think "This is similar to AutoCAD is a huge mistake. Better hit them up front and let them know this isn't your father's cadd system. Setting the background to white is one way to get the message across...

[Scott D Davis]

when that line plots it will not be black if I tell the printer to print black and white.

Sorry, I mispoke on this one. In the print dialog box, you have the choice to print Color, Grayscale, or Black lines. If you have color lines, and print in color to a black and white only printer, Revit will interpret the colors as grays/blacks. Since you are setting up color line styles, make sure you print to Black in the color settings to get black lines. (unless you need a degree of shading, then use grayscale).


because I have already noticed that without the thin line button toggled, the display is absolutely horrid

Revit line weights are per scale of the view. A .1mm line weight will always plot and display at the real thickness according to the view scale. (Revit is always WYSIWYG) If your views look "horrid" then you probably are looking at a detail that should be 1 1/2" = 1'-0", but instead its displaying at 1/8" scale. This will make all the lines appear very thick.


As far as other software and black backgrounds go, Softplan, Vectorworks.....

Yes, other 'old' CAD software does allow black backgrounds, but you don't use but one, right? What about all your other day-to-day software? Taking a look at my program files....Word, excel, outlook, this web site, Windows Explorer, Acrobat, Oce Client Tools....all of them are white background. Revit does give you the ability to switch to a black background, it just doesn't look as good. Honestly, my first impression with Revit WAY back at 1.0, was "White Background??? But that's not like AutoCAD!" I proceeded to swtich to black...hated it. Switched back to white. Now I don't like working in AutoCAD on black background any more!


we are going to have to change the way we draw and the way our drawings look. I don't think the principles here are going to like hearing that.
Do your principals draw? Make sure that when you tell them that you are going to have to rethink the way you do things, to mention that most firms see productivity gains of 50% or more with Revit. Then they wont mind the fact that you are working smarter, not harder.....and wont care that you had to change your methods.

[barathd]

I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AUTOCAD AND REVIT. All I am saying is that I do not want to see a black and white screen. I am not trying to plot by color. I just want to be able to plot my colored line types as black lines. Why have these options if they don't work. For a program that is so advanced - black and white display should be no option at all - unless that is you preference.

Regards

Dick Barath

[Henry D]

With respect to a black vs white background I find black text and black lines on a white background much easier on my eyes. At first, I also tried to use Revit with a black background. Now, I find it a strain when I have to look at a black background in AutoCAD. I did a quick search for articles on this topic, here are a couple of quotes from studies on alleviating computer related strain:

"Negative contrast screens with black letters on a white background affords the best situation for focusing (given you don't experience flicker)..."


"Black text on a white background provides the best contrast and visibility, and dark backgrounds should be avoided."

[Scott D Davis]

I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AUTOCAD AND REVIT. All I am saying is that I do not want to see a black and white screen. I am not trying to plot by color. I just want to be able to plot my colored line types as black lines. Why have these options if they don't work. For a program that is so advanced - black and white display should be no option at all - unless that is you preference.

Regards

Dick Barath
Dick, I know you know the difference, that wasn't the point of my post. What I was trying to explain is that colors on the Revit screen will print to gray scales if you use the "color" selection in the print dialog box, and print to a black and white printer. What you need is to change the drop down in the print dialog box to "Black lines" then print so that Revit will print all of your color lines as black.

HTH!

[dalewww]

If you have color lines, and print in color to a black and white only printer, Revit will interpret the colors as grays/blacks. Since you are setting up color line styles, make sure you print to Black in the color settings to get black lines.

So if I use color lines and use Black in the color settings I will get black lines or gray. Seems what you are saying is grey. That is what I have found also. This means there is no way to get black lines out of Revit unless I use black as a color.



Yes, other 'old' CAD software does allow black backgrounds, but you don't use but one, right?

Using a compare and contrast model here. Just because they are old doesn't mean they are worse either.



What about all your other day-to-day software? Taking a look at my program files....Word, excel, outlook, this web site, Windows Explorer, Acrobat, Oce Client Tools....all of them are white background.

I have changed my appearene of all window to different colors, making all other apps not be white.



Revit does give you the ability to switch to a black background, it just doesn't look as good.

If black is only for the older software and white is the new and better thing then why offer it and make it work half way? Why not give the use the option and choice as to which way to draw or say that the Revit way is better and not offer it at all.



Do your principals draw? Make sure that when you tell them that you are going to have to rethink the way you do things, to mention that most firms see productivity gains of 50% or more with Revit. Then they wont mind the fact that you are working smarter, not harder.....and wont care that you had to change your methods.

I wish it was that easy. No they are by hand and VERY particular on how things look. Those in charge of deciding on not going with Archicad, which we had one seat of, and going with Revit is because they were told that the drawings will look no different than what we did in AutoCAD just faster. They constantly used the 50% fast and smarter thing for 3 years until the principles broke down. Not seeing the drawings look the way they want them too, or with more work, they won't like.

So far, though, it seems as if your signature statement is true. Unfortunatly, our office would like the choice of some of the things that we have to unlearn. this one is one of those.

In such an advanced, "new" progam, I would think such an option would be easily accomplished. The other "old" programs seem to do it with no problems.

Thanks for the information, Scott, it let me know how much work I have a head of me.
barathd--if you figure anything else out let me know and I will do the same. This issue may take some time to get right for us.

[Wes Macaulay]

Y'all know this: Revit wants you to think WYSIWYG. It makes it hard to figure out which thin black line is the grid line... so you want to give the grid line its own colour, right?

I've had to use so many CAD systems at so many firms that I didn't even try to change Revit from its What You See Is What Shall Print methodology. User comfort is important, so I offer the following:

If you want to use colours, use dark ones. Then print using grayscale option. Those dark colours will print reasonably dark in greyscale, and the gray fills for walls and such will print OK.

You don't want to print black and white because all your greys will print black, which isn't any good.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

Dick,

Hate to ask the obvious but in the print dialogue do you have the Appearance check box marked for Black Lines or grayscale?
I get pretty consistent results when I set to greyscale. And can't duplictae the lineweight issue when I have any of my rpinters set to black lines. How your lines plot will depend somewhat on your printer/plotter resolution. Some printers will dither lines to emulate greyscale differently than others. If lineweights are set too fine they can disappear altogether because they essentially fall between the cracks of the dots your printer will produce.
You might want to try and set up dummy drawing to test out various linewhights in different colors/thicknesses and plotted at different resolutions.