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beegee
2003-10-27, 01:33 AM
Just caught up with Lachmi Khemlani's latest article in AEC Cadence Tech New #108.

The whole article is worth reading, but a couple of points I thought interesting were :-

Interoperability:

Another significant area of discussion was the polarity between integration and interoperability. Recall that in my cover story "Should We BIM? Pushing the State of the Art in AEC" in the June 2003 issue of CADENCE (www.cadenceweb.com/2003/0603/coverstory0603.html), I posited that the ultimate success of interoperability efforts such as the IFC would depend on how the AEC industry evolves. If the industry continues to be dominated by one or two large companies, they will eventually develop integrated suites of applications around their BIM solutions and interoperability would become less critical; on the other hand, if smaller companies with effective BIM solutions attract a large client base, interoperability would gain in importance as a means to integrate these solutions with third-party applications.


When posed with the integration-versus-interoperability question, all three software vendors expressed their belief in and commitment to both principles. Autodesk did face some flak for not bundling IFC support with its ADT application and making customers rely on a third-party IFC translator instead. When questioned about IFC support for Revit, Autodesk stated that because Revit was still a relatively new product in the early adoption phase, plans for IFC support would be premature. Despite their support for interoperability, all the vendors also emphasized that the internal data structures of their products were proprietary, which means that data cannot be exactly mapped between the three main BIM applications. ( beegee's highlighting )

Legal Aspects:

Apart from the technology, a key topic of discussion was the legal barriers to BIM implementation. Several attendees expressed a fear of litigation in switching to model-based design, as the deliverables are bound to change and the standards for BIM still have to be set. Needless to say, our contract documents have to be rewritten to reflect the new way of designing, constructing, and maintaining buildings using intelligent 3D models rather than 2D CAD drawings.

Who will be the main agent of change to push the model-based approach? There was no clear agreement on this question. Some felt that it would and should be the owners commissioning buildings, particularly long-term ones, since they will be the greatest beneficiaries of BIM, saving costs on design, construction, and operations, all through the building lifecycle. Others disagreed, and felt that the bigger construction companies are going to start working with 3D models and dictate process changes to the other building professionals. In any case, design-build will become more common, instead of the current design-bid-build procedure, which is inefficient as well as quite illogical.

One of the main reasons the building industry is hopelessly behind other industries in technology adoption and efficiency is that there is no single party in charge of managing the entire process from concept to completion. The role and scope of the present-day architect is far removed from the "master builder" of the past; however, the adoption of building information modeling can conceivably create a new role, that of the "information master builder." Whether the architectural profession is smart and savvy enough to step up and take on this critical role depends upon the lead it takes in adopting and implementing BIM technology. The opportunities exist; they just need to be seized. BIM can be implemented on small pilot projects to start with, and the current economic downturn actually presents a great time to provide employees with the necessary training on the new tools.



Food for thought ?

aggockel50321
2003-10-27, 01:57 PM
Design build has grown quite fast over the last 20 years primarily because of the financial (change order) pitfalls associated with 2d design-bid-build procedure, due to oversight, and the owner just not understanding what he bought, because of his lack of expertise in the 2d technique.

Unfortunately the architectural community (excluding this group, of course) really has been lagging in adopting new CAD technologies...

PeterJ
2003-10-27, 03:15 PM
D&B is fine provided the client and the architect agree on that which is important to the clarity of the conceptual design and that which the contractor can play around with to gain best price. I have seen packages here which comprised a specification in the form of employer's requirements and all the usual drawings but then also included highly detailed elevations and internal elevations so that the architect's intent was not lost. Whether it actually worked or not is a moot point, so often things like door furniture, light fittings etc get down-graded and really damage the original idea.

In this software package that we use there is the opportunity to provide much of that information within the model without necessarily detailing it up, simply by specifying elements within the building so that the information is there and can be queried, even if it isn't down on paper. Maybe there is a point that we are reaching where you could tender a model and request that the contractor offer to price for detailing it up, in competition with the architect/a drafting service. The architect would then be able to offer themselves as a consultant over the drawings that were produced from their model in order to confirm that the client's interests were met in terms of the information package that was produced.

bmadsen
2003-10-27, 03:54 PM
One of the main reasons the building industry is hopelessly behind other industries in technology adoption and efficiency is that there is no single party in charge of managing the entire process from concept to completion.

Another reason that architects are "hopelessly behind" is the tradition of billing the client for hours worked rather than for work completed. When I hire an architect to design my house, if the construction documents are completed in half the time, the fee is reduced (all other things being equal). When I hire a painter to paint my house for x dollars, if he completes the job in half the time the fee stays the same.

The painter has an incentive to be more productive. The architect has an incentive to do things the same old (slow) way.

PeterJ
2003-10-27, 04:25 PM
You don't work on percentages or fixed fee packages? Anything where the job is large enough for the fee to cover some unknowns and accidents I will do on a %age of build cost and set out the %stage fees in advance.

Doesn't work for small projects, but there I try and look at it the other way and say if someone else is going to charge on an hourly rate and take 8 hours to do a job stage that I can do in 6 and that logic runs through the entire design and documentation cycle chances are I offer the more attractive fee and if all other things are equal I ought to get the job.

Most people are surely going that way....

bmadsen
2003-10-27, 11:21 PM
In my experience at one firm they billed a fee for design and charged extra for "CAD Services", "reproduction", etc. At that shop, the billing method did not encourage newer, more efficient methods (one of the reasons I left). I guess I was extrapolating from that experience. :oops:

At my current firm, most of our work is fixed fee, so the situation is different. I am fortunate to be at a place that has an explicitly written vision to be "involved in state-of-the-art computer literacy and ongoing learning." That's why I've got my hands on Revit. :D

hand471037
2003-10-27, 11:45 PM
Anyone doing anything with 'design-bridge'? It's somewhat new; a kinda combo of Design-Build and 'traditional' systems...

beegee
2003-10-28, 12:21 AM
Anyone doing anything with 'design-bridge'?

Greg Cashen designs bridges I think.

Ed Sorry, I am trying hard to be more serious.

Vincent Valentijn
2003-10-28, 09:05 AM
I'm doing a presentation on BIM tomorrow.. in my intro I talk about the 3 points that make it so interesting;
1) digital databases that can optimize communication between parties,
2) to control changes, changing a parameter on one end will get implemented in the whole. This reduces mistakes drastically,
3) for managing the building after completion, mainetenance but also re-use.

For the time being though.. If I have contractors bidding, for building one of my designs; they ask for the 'normal' drawings and a standardized description. The extra info a BIM produces right now is simply set aside as being 'yeah whatever'...
Controlling changes is indeed easier, the fact that I'm the only one working (sort of) BIM though means I need to put in everything myself if I want to keep it up-to-date, to other parties BIM simply isn't that appealing to implement for a long time to come. They are low-tech..
Managing the building, yes it's a nice idea but the possibilities of Revit are not wide and mature enough to do this in reality (ADT is closer but too complex) , only for a small portion. It only works for a few very particular situations (which we've been implementing already) Details are extremely important in this area and since they are not 3D or real materials they are not available in data and not parametric or anything either. The companies specialized in maintenance contracts all prefer working with inspectors and data that is entered 'on site'...

So, I do believe BIM will bring us a lot in the future but both the applications and the industry have a long way to go before it will live up to it's promise. If you ask me > get into it NOW and prepare for the future. :D