Long Term MicroStation user learning AutoCAD 2013

[blothian]

Hi all, I've been using MicroStation for nearly 16 years and have recently decided (through my own choice) to learn AutoCAD 2013. So far its been pretty straightforward (just taking baby-steps atm) though I'm just working on a vanilla installation and following online tutorials and targeting commands I consider to be invaluable in MS and trying find the appropriate equivalent command(s)/steps in AutoCAD. One thing that I cannot find how achieve in AutoCAD is replicate the behaviour of MicroStation's SMARTMATCH command. What it does is you double click on any element and it sets the current active Colour, Level, Linestyle and Lineweight to that of the source element. Once matched, I can make use of these settings to change the appearance of existing geometry using the CHANGE ELEMENT ATTRIBUTES command or create new geometry. These settings now persist for remainder of the drawing session until the user choose to change any/all of these settings. In AutoCAD I have found the Match properties (MA) command but only appears to change existing geometry and not set the active Colour, Level, Linestyle and Lineweight within the properties panel on the Ribbon.

So can achieve this in AutoCAD or do you have to manually set each setting?

Many thanks

[Tom Beauford]

Never used MicroStation, with AutoCAD you're talking about is frowned on. In AutoCAD it's best to use bylayer for objects and byblock for block entities. Colour, Linetype, Lineweight, Transparency, Plot Style and Plot can then be controled by Layer States or Viewport Overrides. Instead of 256 numbered Levels with AutoCAD use as many descriptive Layer names as you need. As an example on one layout you can have multiple viewports of the same area with different groups of Layers displayed with different Colour, Linetype, Lineweight, Transparency, Plot Style and Plot settings in each one. Setting properties other than Layer to an object limits what you can do. To fix drawings that have had that done to them AutoCAD has a SetByLayer command that removes Colour, Linetype, Lineweight, Transparency, Plot Style and Plot settings. Layouts and Viewports are probably new to you, but once you see how useful Layer States and Viewport Overrides are you'll understand.

HTH & Good Luck,

[Jmurphy]

AutoCAD has a Match Property command (Matchprop) that allow you to match color,layer, etc of entities after you created them. There is also a Make Layer Current command (Laymcur) that sets the layer of a select object current.

[blothian]

Hi tom and Jmurphy. I was hoping to avoid any ByLayer/ByLevel CAD standards as I had suspected that most people would simply change the layer and the linestyle/lineweight would change automatically. I'm looking at this from an unbiased viewpoint as both applications allow users to work in a bylayer method but not every office works that way. MS does give you a tool to set the current level, line style/weight from that properties of an existing piece of geometry but judging by both responses it seems AutoCAD does not unless you do work in a ByLayer method.

In response to Tom, MS can do all of your suggestions including Layouts and Viewports, the only major difference is that the terminology used between applications.

Thanks

[Wanderer]

Hi tom and Jmurphy. I was hoping to avoid any ByLayer/ByLevel CAD standards as I had suspected that most people would simply change the layer and the linestyle/lineweight would change automatically. I'm looking at this from an unbiased viewpoint as both applications allow users to work in a bylayer method but not every office works that way. MS does give you a tool to set the current level, line style/weight from that properties of an existing piece of geometry but judging by both responses it seems AutoCAD does not unless you do work in a ByLayer method.

In response to Tom, MS can do all of your suggestions including Layouts and Viewports, the only major difference is that the terminology used between applications.

Thanks

If you've assigned the linestyle and lineweight, it will not change automatically when you put the object on a different layer, those exceptions will remain with the object until manually changed.

Bylayer is the 'proper' way to do it in AutoCAD, though we all make exceptions to that from time to time, but, as a rule...

I don't accept drawings (big medical center client) with objects that aren't bylayer. Whether because it's misleading when my users try to show or hide a layer based on visible attributes or because we're x-ref'ing (can't control the visual appearance of your referenced file if it's not bylayer). I about cried tears of joy when AutoCAD started including the SETBYLAYER command, and it actually worked on blocks as well.

For what it's worth, Murph's advice is the way I'd approach your situation as well.

Good on ya for trying to know both well. I only spent one semester on Microstation and was completely out of my element, having been an AutoCAD user for so long. I did install Bentley Viewer here for the guys for a couple of years, and some of them liked it well enough to keep it, even when I switched us to TrueView. I was glad when Autodesk adopted Bentley's rollover highlighting idea, makes things easier, imho.

[blothian]

Hi Wanderer,

I work mostly on jobs for Network Rail (They own almost all of the Railway's here in the UK so you don't get many bigger clients) and their CAD standards have levels for each consultant discipline however they use a colour convention of only 4 colours on their drawings (using a WYSIWYG methodology i.e. no plot styles/pen tables etc... to discern the status of works (Existing or unchanged, Modified/to be moved, Redundant/To be removed, New/Proposed/Additional). This convention doesn't reasonably allow for a bylayer approach as the status of geometry on a particular layer can change at any point. I say reasonably as you could do it but you would need the normal layers duplicated and set to use each of the colour's (where applicable) which as you can imagine creates a stupidly long layer list.

Learning AutoCAD is not for part of my day job, its more a personal thing to enhance my skill-set and employabilty. I've not found anything yet in AutoCAD that is better than MicroStation save for the GUI. Not only is the visual look easier on the eye but the Ribbon is also superior to Bentley's Task vertical interface.

[Wanderer]

Hi Wanderer,

I work mostly on jobs for Network Rail (They own almost all of the Railway's here in the UK so you don't get many bigger clients) and their CAD standards have levels for each consultant discipline however they use a colour convention of only 4 colours on their drawings (using a WYSIWYG methodology i.e. no plot styles/pen tables etc... to discern the status of works (Existing or unchanged, Modified/to be moved, Redundant/To be removed, New/Proposed/Additional). This convention doesn't reasonably allow for a bylayer approach as the status of geometry on a particular layer can change at any point. I say reasonably as you could do it but you would need the normal layers duplicated and set to use each of the colour's (where applicable) which as you can imagine creates a stupidly long layer list.

Learning AutoCAD is not for part of my day job, its more a personal thing to enhance my skill-set and employabilty. I've not found anything yet in AutoCAD that is better than MicroStation save for the GUI. Not only is the visual look easier on the eye but the Ribbon is also superior to Bentley's Task vertical interface.

~whistles~ That is a big client. In that case... the customer is always right! It's just different from how most of us are used to working.

Can't go wrong there.

[cadtag]

The by-layer vs by-entity schism is one of the fundamental differences between uStn and Acad. With Bentley's product - derived as is were from the old Intergraph line, the by-entity properties came first, and setting symbology by level is an over-ride to the initial bias for per entity control.

Acad is the complete opposite - the by-entity poperties are a over-ride to the properties inherited from the layer assignment. For practical puposes, this is a huge difference when referencing in drawing files to an active drawing - Acad has no way to assign properties to anything in the xref, other than changing the layer properties. So if your line is color RED on Layer Green - it will _always_ be red in appearance - regardless of how one wants it to show up when referencing the file into a current drawing.

Once could wish for a 'force xref objects to display bylayer' over ride - essentially over-riding the over-ride, but it's not happened yet. (and that _was_ a wish list item at one poiit)

[blothian]

...and setting symbology by level is an over-ride to the initial bias for per entity control.
This is no longer true and hasn't been so for nearly 10 years since ByLevel attributes were implemented.


..Acad has no way to assign properties to anything in the xref, other than changing the layer properties. So if your line is color RED on Layer Green - it will _always_ be red in appearance - regardless of how one wants it to show up when referencing the file into a current drawing.
Are you saying that AutoCAD cannot replicate MicroStation's Level Symbology overrides for Reference files?

[cadtag]

This is no longer true and hasn't been so for nearly 10 years since ByLevel attributes were implemented.


Are you saying that AutoCAD cannot replicate MicroStation's Level Symbology overrides for Reference files?

Well, it's more an issue of priority, on the uStn side over-ride may not be the best term. - acad initially depended on controlling everything bylayer and later added by-entity over rides. The Bentley bros went the other way, starting with by-entity propeties and then adding by-level symbology. so the defaults are opposite to each other.

And that's why Acad can't overide by-entity symbology in a reference file and force by-layer display, and why uStn can. So the answer to your question is 'that is correct, it can't.'

[blothian]

Question No.2: How to divide a distance between 2 points on-the-fly by an integer

Progress is still going well until I have become stuck on this. In MS, there are many ways to divide a distance between 2 points into any number of equal sized parts. One is a built-in feature called the snap divisor (Sets the number of keypoints on a line, line string segment, or curve segment to one greater than this value), the other is to use the MS version of tracking and a keyin. For the latter say I have the a basic floor plan and I have some rectangles represent desks. What I want to do is move all of these desks to 1/3rd of the room width from one of the walls. To achieve this in MS I would:


Select all the desks, activate copy and snap to basepoint (at this point the elements are floating ready for the destination point to be entered)
Activate MS version of tracking
Snap to first basepoint,left-click to send data point
Lock direction of travel (just like turning ORTHO on)
Move to next snap point however...
On the Accudraw(MS Data entry tool) Type "/x" on (where x is the number of equal sizes the distance would be split into eg Midpoint = /2) and the current distance between the 2 tracking points is divided by the integer x.
Left-click to send data point and place geometry at desired location


This is an extremely quick and efficient method to positioning geometry without resorting to method that place additional geometry to represent the snap points. This is the only solution I have found with the DIVIDE command though its somewhat not as streamlined due to having to set up an extra line first to match the length of wall (the extent of the original is not made from 1 single line), then divide that to create points and then go through the move procedure. Is there a less clunky on-the-fly approach to be learned?

[Wanderer]

Question No.2: How to divide a distance between 2 points on-the-fly by an integer

Progress is still going well until I have become stuck on this. In MS, there are many ways to divide a distance between 2 points into any number of equal sized parts. One is a built-in feature called the snap divisor (Sets the number of keypoints on a line, line string segment, or curve segment to one greater than this value), the other is to use the MS version of tracking and a keyin. For the latter say I have the a basic floor plan and I have some rectangles represent desks. What I want to do is move all of these desks to 1/3rd of the room width from one of the walls. To achieve this in MS I would:


Select all the desks, activate copy and snap to basepoint (at this point the elements are floating ready for the destination point to be entered)
Activate MS version of tracking
Snap to first basepoint,left-click to send data point
Lock direction of travel (just like turning ORTHO on)
Move to next snap point however...
On the Accudraw(MS Data entry tool) Type "/x" on (where x is the number of equal sizes the distance would be split into eg Midpoint = /2) and the current distance between the 2 tracking points is divided by the integer x.
Left-click to send data point and place geometry at desired location


This is an extremely quick and efficient method to positioning geometry without resorting to method that place additional geometry to represent the snap points. This is the only solution I have found with the DIVIDE command though its somewhat not as streamlined due to having to set up an extra line first to match the length of wall (the extent of the original is not made from 1 single line), then divide that to create points and then go through the move procedure. Is there a less clunky on-the-fly approach to be learned?
Well, a dynamic block wouldn't exactly be on-the-fly... have you seen the ARRAY command in 2013? That might do what you're after, if I've read your post right.
(page 9 of this document (http://autocadinsider.autodesk.com/files/AutoCAD2013WinPreviewGuide.pdf) or look at these youtube videos (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBDA48F7BA67DC6E)... sorry, I don't have access to youtube here so I can't give you a direct link to a demo)

[blothian]

Well, a dynamic block wouldn't exactly be on-the-fly... have you seen the ARRAY command in 2013? That might do what you're after, if I've read your post right.
(page 9 of this document (http://autocadinsider.autodesk.com/files/AutoCAD2013WinPreviewGuide.pdf) or look at these youtube videos (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBDA48F7BA67DC6E)... sorry, I don't have access to youtube here so I can't give you a direct link to a demo)

I don't think it is tbh. Seeing as I'm likely to be posting quite a bit on queries like this I think adding some screencasts of what I'm trying to do will make it easier for the AutoCAD experts respond more accurately. Here is a basic example of a theoretical room with some desks and how I can place them at 1/3rd of the top horizontal wall in from the left hand side. The dimensions play no part, they serve only to illustrate and confirm that the divisor setting is placing the geometry in the correct location.


http://screencast.com/t/tWpesZwQw56

[Wanderer]

I don't think it is tbh. Seeing as I'm likely to be posting quite a bit on queries like this I think adding some screencasts of what I'm trying to do will make it easier for the AutoCAD experts respond more accurately. Here is a basic example of a theoretical room with some desks and how I can place them at 1/3rd of the top horizontal wall in from the left hand side. The dimensions play no part, they serve only to illustrate and confirm that the divisor setting is placing the geometry in the correct location.


http://screencast.com/t/tWpesZwQw56
Hmm, my fault for misreading. I was thinking you were setting out multiple desks at even intervals along a specified distance.
I think the closest in-built ability would be the M2P osnap, but, that would only give you the midpoint, you can't select different increments like 1/3.

Hopefully your screencast can give one of the smarter folks a clue. ;)

(btw, Yay my IT department has finally unblocked screencast! I didn't used to be able to get to that.)

[cadtag]

Interesting capability, but I think this may help

Since it's possible to use LISP at the command line, I can set a distance that's any fraction of a known (or knowable distance)

So to define a distance as 1 fifth of the distance between the endpoints of a wall, the syntax would be:

(/ (getdist) 5.0)

and pick the two endpoints using OSNAP.

I can enter that on the command line anytime a value is needed that's 1/5 of a distance.

One can also use the QC command (Quick Calculator) to calculate distance in a simlar manner.

Using more elaborate LISP coding, it's feasible to define additional osnaps using calculations like that, and make the readily available. IIRC the tentative select feature in uSTN was replicated in LISP by Tony T back with R12.

[Tom Beauford]

Question No.2: How to divide a distance between 2 points on-the-fly by an integer

Progress is still going well until I have become stuck on this. In MS, there are many ways to divide a distance between 2 points into any number of equal sized parts. One is a built-in feature called the snap divisor (Sets the number of keypoints on a line, line string segment, or curve segment to one greater than this value), the other is to use the MS version of tracking and a keyin. For the latter say I have the a basic floor plan and I have some rectangles represent desks. What I want to do is move all of these desks to 1/3rd of the room width from one of the walls. To achieve this in MS I would:


Select all the desks, activate copy and snap to basepoint (at this point the elements are floating ready for the destination point to be entered)
Activate MS version of tracking
Snap to first basepoint,left-click to send data point
Lock direction of travel (just like turning ORTHO on)
Move to next snap point however...
On the Accudraw(MS Data entry tool) Type "/x" on (where x is the number of equal sizes the distance would be split into eg Midpoint = /2) and the current distance between the 2 tracking points is divided by the integer x.
Left-click to send data point and place geometry at desired location


This is an extremely quick and efficient method to positioning geometry without resorting to method that place additional geometry to represent the snap points. This is the only solution I have found with the DIVIDE command though its somewhat not as streamlined due to having to set up an extra line first to match the length of wall (the extent of the original is not made from 1 single line), then divide that to create points and then go through the move procedure. Is there a less clunky on-the-fly approach to be learned?

To achieve this in AutoCAD:

Select all the desks, activate copy and snap to basepoint (at this point the elements are floating ready for the destination point to be entered)
Enter plt(cur,cur,1/3) at command line
Lock direction of travel (just like turning ORTHO on)
Pick the two points to place the desks between


I added this macro under 'Mid Between 2 Points' in the 'Object Snap Cursor Menu' Shortcut Menus:

(setvar "USERR1" (getreal "Fraction of the distance between pick points: "));\'cal plt(cur,cur,getvar(USERR1));
with the Command Name 'Snap, Fraction Between 2 Points'
Then to achieve this in AutoCAD:

Select all the desks, activate copy and snap to basepoint (at this point the elements are floating ready for the destination point to be entered)
Select 'Snap, Fraction Between 2 Points' from the 'Object Snap Cursor Menu'
Enter 1/3 or whatever fraction you like
Pick the two points to place the desks between


This could also be done easilly with lisp or a script. There is many ways to do almost anything in AutoCAD once you get the hang of it.

[blothian]

Thanks Tom, that looks like a good solution. I'm familiar with VBA though the syntax of the above code is somewhat alien but its probably easy to understand with a bit of experience.

I've not delved into the customization side of things yet and I'm not sure what file(s) are involved when modifying the existing GUI but will be something I intend to look into. This being the case I'm not likely to use your example until I have a good understanding of what its doing to the default installation.

Onwards with the tutorials!

[Tom Beauford]

Thanks Tom, that looks like a good solution. I'm familiar with VBA though the syntax of the above code is somewhat alien but its probably easy to understand with a bit of experience.

I've not delved into the customization side of things yet and I'm not sure what file(s) are involved when modifying the existing GUI but will be something I intend to look into. This being the case I'm not likely to use your example until I have a good understanding of what its doing to the default installation.

Onwards with the tutorials!

Programing options for AutoCAD include Diesel, Lisp, Visual Lisp, VBA & Net as well as the CUI. Since you're familar with VBA it and Visual Lisp may be the places to start for you. Before customizing a CUI always copy it somewhere first just in case. The help makes it look easy, but you can mess it up really easy. There are forums here for CUI Menus, Customization, and different programming languages. AutoCAD's discussion groups can be helpful and it only take a couple of Google searches to find the online help sites for AutoCAD are limitless.

Good luck and I hope you learn to enjoy AutoCAD as much as we do.

[blothian]

I've been pretty busy lately so I'm just starting to get back into this again. I'm just starting to play with title blocks and I cannot seem to snap to the sheet boundary to place the border as a block or reference. Is this possible?

[cadtag]

if by sheet boundary, you mean the dashed line that show up on a layout tab, then no - it's not an 'object' just a graphical guide to visually show the printable limits.

Generally speaking, most people set up their sheet border/ title blocks so they are always inserted at 0,0,0. That keeps it simple and always repeatable. One can use x and y offsets in their pagesetups to properly locate the lines on the hardcopy

[blothian]

Is it just me or does the Ortho Mode just not work as it should? I've got an existing DWG that I need to amend and I'm trying to use stretch a few elements vertically with ortho mode on and whenever I snap to the element that should define the extent of the stretch operation, the elements move horizontal as well which they should not. The only way I have been able to keep the elements move only vertically is to use object snap tracking which is not exactly desirable. You can see the behaviour here (http://screencast.com/t/CzhTIbIAyR).

In MicroStation there is a similar feature on the accudraw which does completely restrict the direction of travel for any operation regardless of where the end stretch point is located and I was wonder if that is possible in AutoCAD?

[cadtag]

If you are using Osnap to identify the extent of the stretch operation, then the Osnap values over ride the Orthomode. If you want to absolutely contrain the stretch on the fly, you can look into the dot x, dot y, and dot z filters.

So if I want to stretch an entity so that the selected point only moves in the Y axis but ends up with the same Y value an an object over on the left, I can use the dot filters. When prompted for a base point, pick the point to to use as the base, and for the second point, key in .x <enter> @<enter> and the use Osnapos to identify the point that you want as the Y value.

How this works: the dot filters will extract the portion of the picked point that corresponds to the filter, and then asks for the remaining values. I can stack the filters, and use .xz and pick a point,and then proivde a Y value, or use .y as the filter and then pick a point to provide the X&Z values.

btw - The @ symbol when used as a response to a point prompt, means "use the last point picked".

They are pretty slick and highky useful, especially combined with Osnaps.

[blothian]

Hi cadtag, thanks for the reply. I've just tried it out and it works nicely, though having to use a key-in and remembering what key-in to use depending of desired direction of travel will take a while to sink in. Here (http://screencast.com/t/6gZCcOoI3LX) you can see the MS alternative and how much more intuitive it is, following selecting the base point all you need to do is press enter after moving the cursor in the desired direction of travel (This works for any xyz direction and on the fly rotations as well so no need to remember any key-in combo's).

Another thing I was wondering, is there a button to toggle the direction of a crossing & window during a selection operation?

[cadtag]

Filters are handy. and x y & z aer really pretty easy to remember -- they are after all the only directions in CAD. (all this other stuff is just user friendliness for those who don't do trig and calculus instantly in our heads)

As to how the priorities for point selection are set, that's a developer decision. Adesk's people decided that osnaps would rule over ortho, regardless of whether it's enabled with Orthomode or the shift key.

the direction of crossing window vs window is programmer determined when you are doing implied windowing. If you preface the selection with a C for crossing or a W for Window, diection is whatever you want. Note that works when in a prompt that's asking for a selection -- a C or W at a empty command prompt will get you whatever those shortcuts are aliased to. Circle and Wblock in my case.

[blothian]

the direction of crossing window vs window is programmer determined when you are doing implied windowing. If you preface the selection with a C for crossing or a W for Window, diection is whatever you want. Note that works when in a prompt that's asking for a selection -- a C or W at a empty command prompt will get you whatever those shortcuts are aliased to. Circle and Wblock in my case.

I'm familiar with the choice of Window or Crossing polygon but what I was meaning is that say you choose window polygon and have almost completed the placing all the points that define the shape of the polygon but you now wish to change it to a crossing polygon, can you do so via a button toggle/key-in without having to redraw the polygon?

[cadtag]

no, I don't believe there's a ready way to accomplish changing modes like that in the middle of defining a CP or WP. But that's a different question than changing the direction of selection mode.

I can't say i've ever felt the need to do either of them...

[blothian]

But that's a different question than changing the direction of selection mode.
Perhaps it could have been phrased slightly better but by writing it as I did I was attempting to explain the behaviour of the selection outline when the direction is changed during implied windowing.

I've been using the point filters quite a bit this morning and I think I'm now beginning to get a feel for drawing in AutoCAD thanks to your advice. Its slowish progress which I expected but there are also a couple of odd things which I've ran into:

1) I cannot seem to eliminate view operations from the undo stack. This is pretty annoying that if a change is made to a view (zoom/pan etc..) after another completing another command and I want to undo said command, the view changes are also undone rather than remaining in the current position. There really is no benefit to not controlling view operations via a their own undo stack or at least provide variable to let this behaviour be toggled on user preference.

2) Stretch command acting like move command. Not sure why but if I chose some elements to stretch that are overlapping other elements on a drawing (which are unselected) the stretch command moves the entire element instead of endpoints only. If I isolate the elements and repeat the command it works as expected; very strange behaviour though I'm not sure if that is 'works as designed'.

[blothian]

One other final question before I head home, on this (http://screencast.com/t/X4Ry0hsy) clip I have a shape which I want to stretch 5 segments in vertically in a single operation (2 horizontal lines, 1 vertical, 2 45 degree chamfer lines). How is this achieved in AutoCAD???

[cadtag]

Looking at that clip, adesk would wpuld the same way -- put a crossing window around the horizontal bar, and include the endpoints of everthing you want to stretch.

1) As far as the idea of ignoring view operations in the undo stack, that's been discussed in the wishlist both pros and cons. personally i'd be opposed and think it would create far more problems that the seconds it might save. YMMV

2) That doesn't sound right - unless the other objects are grouped, using constraints, or part of a block. If you cand repeat that -- post a sample drawing exhibiting the behavior so we can look at it.

[jaberwok]

If you know the distance that you want to move or stretch you can pick, drag cursor in the right direction and type the value.

Stretch depends on selecting one/some defining points AND NOT other(s).
If you select (say) both endpoints of a line, the line will move.

[Tom Beauford]

One other final question before I head home, on this (http://screencast.com/t/X4Ry0hsy) clip I have a shape which I want to stretch 5 segments in vertically in a single operation (2 horizontal lines, 1 vertical, 2 45 degree chamfer lines). How is this achieved in AutoCAD???

Window Right to Left, pick base point, move curser in direction you want to go, type distance, press enter. I rarily use ortho so for something like this I would hold down the shift key to toggle it on till pressing enter.

Pretty basic stuff, have you consitered using help before posting here? With a command active pressing F1 will bring up help for the command. Was there no help in MS?

[blothian]

Pretty basic stuff, have you consitered using help before posting here? With a command active pressing F1 will bring up help for the command. Was there no help in MS?
I'm not exactly sure how this is relevant to the AutoCAD query as I fail to see how MS help will provide the answer to an AutoCAD question and unless I am mistaken it sounds quite sarcastic in its tone (to answer the question, you can clearly see on the clips I post that there is a help menu). I do realise that it is quite a basic query but when you come from another software package that you've been using for 17 years, sometimes the simplest task can be not so obvious due to differences between both applications in terminology and operation. I do feel I'm making good progress but hit the odd hurdle and of course the first place I refer to is the online help, then Google if the help doesn't provide an answer, failing that I post here.

I can achieve the stretch now that I understand a little more the nuisances of a crossing window but my lack of misunderstanding is partly due to element selection being another area where AutoCAD is less intuitive as once you place a crossing over the part you want to stretch and press enter, the entire polyline highlights which is quite confusing to a MS user as you can no longer see which part of the polyline you are going to affect. Compare that with my last clip, MS places a temporary rectangle that defines the boundary for the stretch command. The benefit here is it the boundary is always visible until I make it go away so I can always see what is going to be stretched. It doesn't matter if its drawn left to right or right to left, it always stretches the end points regardless.

[Tom Beauford]

I can achieve the stretch now that I understand a little more the nuisances of a crossing window but my lack of misunderstanding is partly due to element selection being another area where AutoCAD is less intuitive as once you place a crossing over the part you want to stretch and press enter, the entire polyline highlights which is quite confusing to a MS user as you can no longer see which part of the polyline you are going to affect. Compare that with my last clip, MS places a temporary rectangle that defines the boundary for the stretch command. The benefit here is it the boundary is always visible until I make it go away so I can always see what is going to be stretched. It doesn't matter if its drawn left to right or right to left, it always stretches the end points regardless.

Had no way of knowing MS didn't have the window/crossing selection option, you will find it very useful. Once you select your base point move the curser and you will see the objects being stretched dynamicly. Not sure why you would want to see a previous selection window, if it included objects on locked layers for example they wouldn't be stretched anyway.

Start the streth command and press F1 gives you detailed help including selecting using a crossing window. Feel free to ask questions here, just wanted to know if you knew how to use AutoCAD help.

[blothian]

MS does have crossing/window as well and for normal element selection operations no boundary is visible just like in AutoCAD. When using the Ms Stretch command or Fence command (not the same thing as AutoCAD Fence, its a tool for element manipulation that I don't think AutoCAD has at all) you get a boundary that defines where the stretch operation will affect. The big difference between AutoCAD and MS for many tasks is that in AutoCAD you need select elements and confirm the selection, in MS the affect the elements as you go so in the case of the MS stretch you don't need to designate which elements will be stretched as per the clip.

[Tom Beauford]

MS does have crossing/window as well and for normal element selection operations no boundary is visible just like in AutoCAD. When using the Ms Stretch command or Fence command (not the same thing as AutoCAD Fence, its a tool for element manipulation that I don't think AutoCAD has at all) you get a boundary that defines where the stretch operation will affect. The big difference between AutoCAD and MS for many tasks is that in AutoCAD you need select elements and confirm the selection, in MS the affect the elements as you go so in the case of the MS stretch you don't need to designate which elements will be stretched as per the clip.

Besides the default Window AutoCAD has Last, Previous, All, Fence, WPolygon, CPolygon, & Select Similar. There is also Dialog box options like Quick Select... & Selection Filters... Others include the Express Tool Fast Select and included lisp routines SSX.lsp & Getsel.lsp. With a wide array of programming options including lisp a more specialized method isn't to difficult. Don't know what your MS Fence is (This is an AutoCAD forum afterall) but if it's something you need I'm sure we can explain how you can get the results you need in AutoCAD.

If "in the case of the MS stretch you don't need to designate which elements will be stretched as per the clip" how does it know which elements to stretch? Do you mean you can't lock layers to prevent them from being modified accidently?

[blothian]

I wouldn't say having an AutoCAD equivalent of a MS Fence is something I need (though it would be nice!) but I'm sure you will appreciate that a fair part of my learning of AutoCAD will be based on knowledge of MS as many of the tools will perform in the same way but at the same time I'm here to learn how to understand how to go about the same task in AutoCAD. I'm familiar with the standard implied windowing and other examples you stated though lisp routines are still a grey area to me at this early stage.



If "in the case of the MS stretch you don't need to designate which elements will be stretched as per the clip" how does it know which elements to stretch? Do you mean you can't lock layers to prevent them from being modified accidently?

All elements are available to be stretched whenever the boundary passes over an elements endpoints however to prevent this you can either:

Isolate the elements you only want to stretch using a displayset
Lock individual elements in the affected area that you dont want stretched
Lock layers (less likely due to the other alternatives being being simpler)


The MS fence is a transient aid for complex element manipulation and unlike a normal MS or AutoCAD selection boundary (be it window/crossing/AutoCAD Fence etc...) it remains on-screen even after any view operations and can be moved, modified or saved for future use prior to starting any fence-aided operation(fence stretch/Fence move/fence copy etc..). The fence boundary has a number of selection modes which affect how any future commands act upon elements that the fence either contains and/or overlaps. If you want to understand it a bit more you can check out here (http://docs.bentley.com/en/MicroStation/ustnhelp752.html) and here (http://docs.bentley.com/en/MicroStation/ustnhelp755.html).

From what I have seen so far, I don't think AutoCAD has got an equivalent though it would be good if it does.

[jaberwok]

All elements are available to be stretched whenever the boundary passes over an elements endpoints however to prevent this you can either:

Isolate the elements you only want to stretch using a displayset
Lock individual elements in the affected area that you dont want stretched
Lock layers (less likely due to the other alternatives being being simpler)



Or you can allow these objects to be selected and either press SHIFT and pick them or type r and pick them and remove them from the selection set.
OR you can "cheat" by erasing objects that you don't want to be affected, perform the STRETCH operation and type OOPS which undoes the last erase operation.

Depends on how many objects and how complex the area.

[blothian]

Hi Jaberwok, thanks for the tips.

Just to clarify, the bullet points listed are the actions I would take in MS to answer Tom's query and I suppose the same can be done in AutoCAD though I do not know if you can you lock elements on an individual basis to stop them from being edited? The search results I've found is that you can only do it on a per layer basis.

I also found this PDF (http://aucache.autodesk.com/au2011/sessions/3796/nov29_virtual_handouts/v2_AC3796_AARHUS_HANDOUT.pdf) which makes interesting reading for comparing both applications.

[cadtag]

Locking on a per-entity basis is not there, and could sometimes be useful. I do occasionally use the HIDE objects function to accomplish the same goal. (little yellow lightbulb at the bottom right, tool tip says 'Isolate Objects')

The thing with uStn and Acad is that they get to similar end results, but the language and grammar are very different - rather like French and German. Love poetry in German sounds like rhinos mating, while reading a menu aloud in French sounds like love poetry.:mrgreen:

[jaberwok]

Hi Jaberwok, thanks for the tips.

Just to clarify, the bullet points listed are the actions I would take in MS to answer Tom's query and I suppose the same can be done in AutoCAD though I do not know if you can you lock elements on an individual basis to stop them from being edited? The search results I've found is that you can only do it on a per layer basis.

I also found this PDF (http://aucache.autodesk.com/au2011/sessions/3796/nov29_virtual_handouts/v2_AC3796_AARHUS_HANDOUT.pdf) which makes interesting reading for comparing both applications.

Ah, I did wonder where those points came from.
The last time I used uStn, it was the "95" version and it was new!

[Tom Beauford]

I wouldn't say having an AutoCAD equivalent of a MS Fence is something I need (though it would be nice!) but I'm sure you will appreciate that a fair part of my learning of AutoCAD will be based on knowledge of MS as many of the tools will perform in the same way but at the same time I'm here to learn how to understand how to go about the same task in AutoCAD. I'm familiar with the standard implied windowing and other examples you stated though lisp routines are still a grey area to me at this early stage.



All elements are available to be stretched whenever the boundary passes over an elements endpoints however to prevent this you can either:

Isolate the elements you only want to stretch using a displayset
Lock individual elements in the affected area that you dont want stretched
Lock layers (less likely due to the other alternatives being being simpler)


The MS fence is a transient aid for complex element manipulation and unlike a normal MS or AutoCAD selection boundary (be it window/crossing/AutoCAD Fence etc...) it remains on-screen even after any view operations and can be moved, modified or saved for future use prior to starting any fence-aided operation(fence stretch/Fence move/fence copy etc..). The fence boundary has a number of selection modes which affect how any future commands act upon elements that the fence either contains and/or overlaps. If you want to understand it a bit more you can check out here (http://docs.bentley.com/en/MicroStation/ustnhelp752.html) and here (http://docs.bentley.com/en/MicroStation/ustnhelp755.html).

From what I have seen so far, I don't think AutoCAD has got an equivalent though it would be good if it does.

You'll find there are so many different ways to do anything in AutoCAD it's hard to answer a question unless it's very specific. Enter SELECT at the command line and hit F1. From the posts you referenced WPolygon, CPolygon, and Remove would be the way to do the same in AutoCAD. From what I can tell Lock in MS is the same as Remove in AutoCAD. Does MS have an equivalent to Locked Layers in AutoCAD? I can see where it can be confusing to switch products when one term means different things in each software.

[cadtag]

or even the same term in the same product line with different meanings -- comapare a REGION in vanilla, with a Region in C3D

confusion is the name of the game i guess

[jaberwok]

or even the same term in the same product line with different meanings -- comapare a REGION in vanilla, with a Region in C3D

confusion is the name of the game i guess

Not to mention Viewport in paperspace versus Viewport in modelspace.

[blothian]

You'll find there are so many different ways to do anything in AutoCAD it's hard to answer a question unless it's very specific. Enter SELECT at the command line and hit F1. From the posts you referenced WPolygon, CPolygon, and Remove would be the way to do the same in AutoCAD. From what I can tell Lock in MS is the same as Remove in AutoCAD. Does MS have an equivalent to Locked Layers in AutoCAD? I can see where it can be confusing to switch products when one term means different things in each software.

Yeah MS can lock by layers and/or on a per individual element basis so you have complete flexibility to suit whatever the task.

I think I can now draw safely say I know what I'm doing when it comes to stretching elements so long as I remember how the crossing appearance changes. Just to close the issue I've made a couple of clips to clarify what I've been saying and to answer any queries on the MS perspective.

This (http://screencast.com/t/0WljS0SI) is the MS Power selector which is a single tool with a variety of selection methods and modes: Single Element selection & Implied windowing, selection via rectangle, selection via polygon, selection via Circle and selection via line. On the bottom row of the toolbox are selection modes: New (Clears the current selection set and starts a new selection set), Add (click on elements to keep selecting), Subtract (click on elements to deselect them), Invert (inverts element selection status), Clear (deselect all). You can see the operations being demonstrated on this OS Map and from 0:33 to 0:39 I've also shown how you can toggle between a crossing and window on-the-fly (granted this is only a rectangle but it works with polygon and circle as well).

This clip (http://screencast.com/t/v0WNAVAbD7I) is an example of the aforementioned MS Fence and I've tried to demonstrate how it differs from traditional element selection and some of the fence operations that go along with it. Again the complex OS map provides a decent amount of geometry so you can see how the fence mode performs regardless of the shape of the fence. I've also shown how you can change the shape of the fence by either single vertice position, change multiple vertices positions (keep existing adjacent angles the same) and moving the entire fence position. So, now that you have seen it in action, does AutoCAD have such a tool?

[cadtag]

AutoCad's SELECT command does not have Circel or Invert options, nor can you toggle between Windows and Crossing modes on the fly. Therre have been times an Invert option would be handy, but other than that, the differences don't matter.

uStn Fence is an interesting tool, and one that does not have a direct equivalent in AutoCAD. Perhaps I would miss it if I had used it, but as it is, everything that I need to do that I would use a uStn style FENCE for, I can already accomplish in other ways. It does look like something that could be recreated in LISP using a temporary Pline. so if it's that important, you might try the Customization group and see if anyone is interested in writing one.

[jaberwok]

@blothian. Just in case you're not aware - typing c at the Select objects prompt will create a crossing window from the next two picks allowing you to pick left-to-right or right-to-left.

[dgorsman]

The thing with uStn and Acad is that they get to similar end results, but the language and grammar are very different - rather like French and German. Love poetry in German sounds like rhinos mating, while reading a menu aloud in French sounds like love poetry.:mrgreen:

And coffee coming out of my nose isn't pretty in any language! :lol: