MEP Riser Diagrams [help!]

[persaudchris358036]

Guys,

So drawing up risers in ACAD is pretty simple with lines and shapes.

However with Revit, the only way I know how to manage a Riser is using either elevation or section views. With all that piping and ducts twisting, turning, and overlapping each other, it is hard to distinguish where all the lines are going and from which systems. Especially if you may have equipment hidden behind other equipment and piping parallel or colinear with each other.

Must I manually create my riser using detail lines which I had to do with my mechanical symbols list or is there an easier way using parametrics?

Help!

[tys90]

It's hard to say without seeing what you are trying to do. Do you have screenshots?

[matt__w]

It sucks that Revit is soooo good at doing 3D but sooooo cr@ppy at doing 2D. We still do a lot of our risers in AutoCAD MEP using schematic lines simply for the auto-breaking ability of the lines. We then link the DWGs in and manually tweak the line weights in the Visibility / Graphics Overrides dialog box.

Another option I've seen is to do an isometric view of piping and equipment/fixtures. It's not the same but still gets the point across.

Matt

[persaudchris358036]

For the sake of having a photo. This is a project I've been working on for the past month from home. Looking for a job is quite tough nowadays and having another skill may push me through that door.

Hey, Matt...I have to agree with you on this. I have seen some tutorials with riser diagrams and get this, most of the riser tutorials in Revit are either electrical or fire alarm. Oh, yeah and some plumbing. And that's if the water closets are in a linear array. And yes, I have seen the video tutorials do a section isometric view to emphasize the 2D risers.

worth a shot. I'll stick to ACAD on this one with some nice 3d views

[Steve_Stafford]

Workaround alert:

You could use a diagram phase (set before all others). Use placeholder pipe/duct to create a simplified riser diagram instead of 2D lines. These will provide the masking, and tagging, as well as allow for varying 3D view orientation. You can place simplified fixtures etc to connect to as well. To keep these from showing up in any other views just demo everything in the first phase you do any real project modelling work in. A lot of people use the same concept to build "live" model legends of elements that they want to correspond with elements that are really being used as opposed to using and dealing with the actual Legend Views and Legend Components and their weaknesses.

[persaudchris358036]

I suppose that could work if I didn't already start the project. But it wouldn't help so much with pipe placeholders overlapping each other. If the project has convoluted piping and ductwork, no sense in trying to find the best view

[bearden383]

Use ACAD. Link the file to a drafting view. Easier to do and much easier to read than a multistory 3d view. Remember just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[persaudchris358036]

bearden,
that's what it comes down to using AutoCAD for certain design drawings. But the isometrics look pretty cool to throw in there.

[chris891540]

Use ACAD. Link the file to a drafting view. Easier to do and much easier to read than a multistory 3d view. Remember just because you can doesn't mean you should.

This. Until Autodesk decides to take Revit MEP serious, we are stuck showing risers in 2D as described above.

[zbrown]

When it comes to plumbing schematics we were very hesitant to use Revit when we first jumped in for the same reason that you are saying. Recently, however, we have begun doing plumbing schematics using an isometric view and limiting the scope of the view to one floor at a time or if they are more complicated we have limited the scope to individual bathroom groups or groups of other fixtures so that the view is readable. It's not the best solution but in my opinion it is better than drawing things twice as you would have to when you draw all of the elements in Revit and then duplicate it in AutoCAD and then link it in. Where we have really seen a benefit is when it come to making changes to the piping arangement. Now when there is a change I make the change in the floor plan and just check the schematic to make sure that it is still readable and then move on instead of having to also remembert to go into AutoCAD and make the change there as well. It takes a little set up initially but I have found that it saves time in the long run.

[neightyeight]

I've been very happy with doing our Plumbing isometric diagrams in Revit. I took a spin on how a lego instruction manual is set up to "tie together" several 3D slices of a bathroom group. For example, I had one very large bathroom group that was five 3D views, each an incremental slice across the bathroom. Those views are spread out on the sheet and lined up. Then I use detail lines to show where things connect to each other.

Here's an example of a smaller bathroom group that conveys the idea:
89677

[Steve_Stafford]

Cool example, it helps to be willing to look at things again and possibly differently.

[martin.schmid]

Nice.. do you get any flack from city/code officials / AHJ's with this type of representation? It'd be interesting to know if there are jurisdications that hisorically required 'traditional' isometrics, but have since come arround to accepting 3D views.

[neightyeight]

No, we haven't had any issues at all in that regard.

In fact, since any changes made to the piping are reflected immediately we're very easily able to include the floor plan and isometric for any code review sketches we make (or addendum, etc.). That by itself makes it appear that we're going above and beyond the standard in regards to documentation, which maybe we are - just at no additional cost.

[zbrown]

We have been submitting similar schematics for close to two years and we have not had a single comment from a code reviewer. It will take some work to make it readable but it really does save time in the process and I have even gotten to the point where I use the schematic to help lay out the system and get it all done in one shot.

[USMCBody]

Would Ghosting the walls and floors help to see what angle you are looking at it?

I've done some things like that in school (in AutoCAD), and it was always funny to me that they would just get it not knowing what angle I was looking at it and all... I wondered if the plumber would actually follow it or not...

But I guess once you get the eye for it, it is no problem.

[martin.schmid]

Would Ghosting the walls and floors help to see what angle you are looking at it?

That's an interesting question... historically, how would one convey what angle they are looking at in a 'conventional' schematic? Could the same not be done with the 3D view representations?

[USMCBody]

From what I was told, and understand. There are some design bits that key you into a toilet connection, shower, and sink. Once you get your locations on the floor plan of the bathrooms everything else tends to fall into place. It's just like doing a puzzle. fill in what you know and the rest you can find out.

The one thing is that you HAVE to study the blueprints. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for studying blueprints and taking a while to understand the blue print language, but in the same aspect, I'm a drafter and my basic job is to be creative to help blueprints read better... I don't know what path would be better in the long run. The path I'm suggesting is maybe not to good for people with short attention spans... Kind of comes with this new age we are in so hay... maybe a 3D key map would be better..

There really is no easy answer here I guess...

[zbrown]

As I understand it at schematic is primarly used to show connectivity (what connects to what) and sizing. Schematics should not be used to determine where fixtures are located in the floor plan. It seems that adding additional elements into the schematic would clutter them and somewhat defeat the purpose of a schematic (although I would be curious to see an example with walls). As long as I have been reading schematics it have always been able to determine which fixture is which by also referencing the floor plan, and leave the schematic as nothing more than what it is, which is a simple representation of the piping arrangement for clarity and sizing purposes.

[neightyeight]

I tried several options with ghosting walls, floors, etc. It felt very cluttered and as zbrown mentioned somewhat defeated the purpose of the schematic. I have ghosted any mechanical equipment connected to piping such as a grease interceptor to allow the piping behind it to remain visible. That worked very well.

Of course, as soon as Revit allows line breaks in a 3D view the same as a in floor plan view then I can use that setting with single line piping (coarse view) to get even closer to a traditional isometric diagram...