Storefront not cutting wall

[patricks]

I recently went through the curtain wall tutorial in Revit 7 and was pleased to see that the curtain wall: storefront tool has been improved in that you can just place it in a wall and it automatically cuts out the wall for the storefront glass.

However I just tried it on a new project, and it does not cut the wall. It gives me the age-old error message "highlighted walls overlap, stuff may not behave correctly blah blah blah..."

I tried using the cut geometry tool, which seemed to work, but it did not cut 2 adjoining walls correctly where I have storefront glass continuing around a corner. Both the wall and the storefront showed as joined at the corner, but there was a little piece of un-cut wall still in the corner.

So why is the storefront wall type not cutting my other wall? :(

[sjsl]

In the Type Properties dialogue box make sure the 'Auto-Embed' is checked.

[Steve_Stafford]

From Revit help...


Walls can be embedded into other walls using the Cut Geometry command. Some curtain wall types automatically embed into a wall. To determine if the curtain wall type automatically embeds into another wall, access the type properties of the wall. If not already selected, select the Automatically Embed type parameter.

[patricks]

well what do you know, wish the tutorial had gone over that (or maybe I missed it)... thanks ya'll ;)

[patricks]

alright so now how do I get rid of the little piece of wall left at the corner when I try to join 2 storefronts together at a corner? None of the wall join options gets rid of it, but only moves it around.

[Steve_Stafford]

...alright so now how do I get rid of the little piece of wall left at the corner...Sounds like you need to trim them to each other, then apply a corner mullion between the two?

[patricks]

Sounds like you need to trim them to each other, then apply a corner mullion between the two?

The walls are already trimmed to each other, as are the curtain wall storefronts. I even placed a corner mullion there, but there is still that little piece of solid wall. The corner mullion is actually inside the little piece of the main wall that didn't get cut.

[tbarnesarc]

Just edit the profile of the two intersecting walls so that the hole where the store front is placed continues through the corner. That worked for me.

[patricks]

Well yeah that does work, but I was hoping that the "new feature" of not having to edit the wall profile would work, but in this case it doesn't. :(

I should add that on 2 of the main walls (adjacent to each other), I had edited the profile. On the other 2 walls, I just inserted the storefront glass with "automatically embed" turned on. At the corners where I had one edited wall and one regular wall joining, I got the storefront to join just fine (no extra pieces in there). But it's that corner that I showed which had the problem, which were the 2 non-edited walls coming together.

[tamas]

Nice problem Patrick. Thanks for bringing it up. This is the usual case of our users finding cases we have not considered yet.

We'll think about a good solution.

Embedded walls modify their hosts kind of like windows do. The shape we cut from the host is determined by the shape of the embedded wall.

[patricks]

Thanks for looking at it tamas. I would think that making the wall join as mitered instead of a butt-join would fix it, but it just makes the little piece a bit smaller (attachment).

But of course I wouldn't want to use a miter join anyway if it were 2 different wall types coming together.

*edit* and actually I just noticed that when I changed the wall join to miter, it made the glass panel in the top storefront extend into the corner mullion. *sigh* :(

[greg.mcdowell]

Old topic but still an issue (apparently) - Any work arounds out there or is editing the profile still the only way?

[robert.manna]

Well since you dug this guy up from the grave Greg... I ran into a simliar problem back in v7, as far as I know it still hasn't been fixed. My workaround (because I generally consider editing a wall profile evil, and use it only as a last resort :) ) was to create void geometries (in place families in this case, if I were to do it again, I might try a hosted family) that cut out the corners. The nice thing about an inplace void is that I beleive I was able to get it to cut both walls at the corner. A fix from A-Desk would be nice though as this is a fairly common condition. I should also mention that after we were done with the project I actually decided that I should have modeled all the solid & curtain walls as seperate elements and not bothered with embededding the cutain wall as in our case this would have more closely represented how the building is/was/being built.

-R

[patricks]

oh man, it's still not fixed in 9.1? Darn.... we're still on 9 here, was hoping 9.1 would have gotten that.

Yes I have gone back and wished I had done the same thing about making separate walls below and above the storefront on that project I originally attached in the original post. Actually wait, I did end up doing that when we revised the whole project. :)

[robert.manna]

"point" releases don't generally contain anything "major" given the more than likely inherent complexities in what we're asking for (it all seems so simple on the surface), maybe in 10 ;).

-R

[greg.mcdowell]

So you two would rather create 3 walls instead of just 2? Other than the "that's how it would be built" argument (and the fact that you have to deal with a workaround with the embedded wall approach), what're the advantages to this method?

[robert.manna]

Other than the "that's how it would be built" argument
I think that is the advanatage the way I look at it. If I'm interested in "simulating" a building such that I better understand what the building is really going to be, before they build it, I need to attempt to follow the practices of construction whenever possible. Sure a single wall that goes from the 1st floor the 8th floor is "easier" to manage, but that isn't the point. The point is to have a model that more closely resemebles what they're going to build, so that I can find the problems beforehand, add into this the potential usefullness of accurate information about the project for a number of other aspects realated to the design and construction of buildings, and it becomes even more important that we contiue to try to simulate a building.

Besides my little soapbox I have another good "Revit technical" reason to do it "my" way. Walls that span multiple stories often have major issues with wall joins with walls that only span single stories, especially if you're deal with an exterior wall that goes up 2 or more stories, and then you have multiple interior partions intersecting with the wall. So if you're going to have a ribbon window condition, then you might as well start with >basic wall - curtain wall - basic wall - curtain wall.....etc< Even then, you might end up splitting the basic wall at the levels that are presumably in between to avoid wall join problems... (Of course if you do a core/shell model, and an interior model, you probably won't have as many problems. :)

On top of all that, given where Revit is as far as a developed tool, you still have to cheat sometimes, and you can't acutally put it together they way it would be in real life, and then you have to do workarounds, etc for instance see the recent post about light tubes :).

Cheers,
-R

[Architeria]

Corner Condition:

I didn't think what I was trying to do could be all that unusual so I searched the threads and found that the issue has been on the radar for a couple of years. Is building several layers of walls still the consensus solution or has someone come up with a better idea?

Auto-embed is checked. I did add a corner column to have something to draw to and one storefront did stop there but when I edit the other leg, the brick wall persists in the corner.

I will try and post a screen shot (my first attempt)

Thanks for any advice you have to offer.

[robert.manna]

Yeah as far as I know, you still either split the solid wall horizontally, create a void to cut the wall at the corner, or edit profile (ick!).

-R

[patricks]

dang, still not fixed in 2008! I just tried it myself. In my opinion, 3 separate walls will still be a better solution (wall below, curtain wall, wall above), because this gives you the maximum amount of control. Sometimes when you edit the profiles of walls, some of the wall's edges from the edited profile will mysteriously associate with other things in the model and move around when you go about moving around seemingly unrelated objects.

[cphubb]

Everyone is missing the easiest method to accomplish this. Embed the top and bottom wall in the curtain wall as shown in this image and file. It allows you to control the wall better and faster than embedding and keeps the model manageable.

Take a look and let me know if you need help in accomplishing this.

[patricks]

You're saying to make the curtain wall full height, and then change some of the panels to regular basic wall types? I have done this on a couple of projects (not for this reason specifically, but just for changing a few curtain panels here and there), and it did not give me the control I really wanted when it came to joining the basic wall "panels" to normal basic wall types.

[cphubb]

I hve not experienced any joining problems with these, other than the standard join problems. It works better than profile editing.

[Architeria]

Thanks for the idea, Chris. I did take a look at your thumbnail but was unable to open your file in my version of 9.0.

So I did try starting with the curtain wall and adding the brick wall to it but saw no place to check Embed for the brick portion. And unfortunately I ended up with much the same situation, unable to get rid of the wall at the corner of the storefront.

I guess I'll try the three wall scenario but if you have time to explain how you did yours, I'd give it another shot.

Isn't this weekend the Opening Day for boating season in Seattle? I know the Fiberglassics group is joining the festivities this year with their classic glass.

Regards

Philip

[dbaldacchino]

Chris, I've used this several times. My main issue with this method is that you don't have enough direct control over the location of the wall (when changed from a curtain panel) with the rest of the curtianwall. For example if I want the exterior edge of the frame to be 2 1/2" from the face of brick, I cannot achieve that when substituting the curtain panel with a wall family (you only have wall centerline, exterior/interior finish face, exterior/interior face of core options for justification). You have to go through a lot of workarounds to get it right (creating custom mullions with specific offsets, etc).

EDIT: Oooops, I was wrong. I missed noticing the "Location Line Offset" parameter. How did I manage to overlook that?!

[patricks]

Thanks for the idea, Chris. I did take a look at your thumbnail but was unable to open your file in my version of 9.0.

So I did try starting with the curtain wall and adding the brick wall to it but saw no place to check Embed for the brick portion. And unfortunately I ended up with much the same situation, unable to get rid of the wall at the corner of the storefront.

When he said "embed" the brick wall, what he meant was to make the storefront wall the full height of the wall you want, add horizontal grids where you want the top and bottom of your glass, then change the glass panels above and below to your brick wall type. You will have to tab-select through to pick the actual glazed panel, then just pull down the type box on the upper left and you can choose any of your wall types.

[Architeria]

Thank you, Patricks, for the explanation. I can see how that would work but would rather play heck with the takeoffs. I've done it now with the layer cake method and actually like the articulation of the corner better. I do realize though that this will require some alignment of the brick coursing although it also provides the opportunity for changing pattern or color or even material. Software limitation as design determinant. Thesis fodder.

I did notice, too, that when I changed the door in the short 45 degree portion to storefront that there is a definite limitation to the amount of storefront that the wall will accept without having trouble cutting the wall, i.e. it wouldn't let me change out the three foot door for three feet of storefront. I'm kinda surprised this tool isn't more user friendly as I would have thought that there would be lots of users who do lots of retail.

Thanks again

[cphubb]

Architeria

Here is how it is done. It is actually pretty easy but not necessarily intuitive.

1. Create a curtain wall family with no rules. (Makes changing it easier)
2. Draw that curtain wall in the locations you need this wall.
3. in elevation 3d or section, add grids at the coursing locations for the top and bottom brick. Mine are at 32"
4. In the upper and lower sections, hover the cursor over the panel, tab twice to select the curtain panel. In the type selector, change the style to your brick wall type. Repeat for all other curtain wall panels that are brick. Use the join tool to clean up coursing at adjoining panels.
5. Divide the storefront portion into panels and add mullions. You will need a mullion that is offset to one side for the curtain grids where the brick adjoins the glass.
6. Change the corner to a corner mullion of your choice
7. Align the pattern to coursing and tweak the curtain grid locations to get it right.

You are finished. The one I posted took less than 15 minutes and will be more viable as the model progresses.

Hint: I use curtain walls to replace stacked walls because of their instability.

[patricks]

Thank you, Patricks, for the explanation. I can see how that would work but would rather play heck with the takeoffs. I've done it now with the layer cake method and actually like the articulation of the corner better. I do realize though that this will require some alignment of the brick coursing although it also provides the opportunity for changing pattern or color or even material. Software limitation as design determinant. Thesis fodder.

I did notice, too, that when I changed the door in the short 45 degree portion to storefront that there is a definite limitation to the amount of storefront that the wall will accept without having trouble cutting the wall, i.e. it wouldn't let me change out the three foot door for three feet of storefront. I'm kinda surprised this tool isn't more user friendly as I would have thought that there would be lots of users who do lots of retail.

Thanks again

So you were trying to change a door family to storefront? That won't work directly, as you cannot change a door instance to a wall type instance. You can delete the door and then insert a curtain wall that is the size of your door. Of course it will need to take into account the width of the mullions you intend to use. So if you need a 3-0 x 7-0 door, you need to make the curtain wall 3-4 long and 7-2 tall if you're using 2" wide mullions.

[Architeria]

Hi Patricks. I guess I need to be more careful with my syntax . . . I deleted the door and substituted the storefront so I could install a storefront door into it. Thanks for the reminder re: width; I didn't in fact get that far as I became fascinated with the way the storefront cut the 45 degree wall and then I tried to change the length of the curtain wall and the program crashed on me and I lost it all because I'm using a demo version . . . WAIT!! Is that why they call it a Demo version??

Thanks for the step-by-step, Chris; I will definitely explore it as an alternate way to handle the condition. I wouldn't have thought your example was done that way by looking at it so I look forward to exploring the technique. Sounds like your experience with the instability of layer-cake wall construction would be worthy of its own thread.

Thanks for everything you all do for those of us in the early stages of the Revit 6-Step program.

[Matt H]

Actually they did fix the problem.... Have you ever wondered what the "Green" dashed line was??

Here is the Fix.. (i got tired of hearing everyones problems... haha just kidding, it took me a couple minutes to actaully figure it out) Make the "Green" flush with the exterior of the wall. Meaning offset your "Glazing" panels and mullions. See Attached Image

Let me know if you have any questions!

[comhasse]

.... Have you ever wondered what the "Green" dashed line was??...
I like to consider the green line the center line of the curtain wall, to be aligned with the core center line of the host wall. But who cares, your solution still rocks!
Michael

[Matt H]

Yeah.. I see your point.. But this is better than making voids and editing wall profiles...

[dbaldacchino]

Actually they did fix the problem.... Have you ever wondered what the "Green" dashed line was??

Here is the Fix.. (i got tired of hearing everyones problems... haha just kidding, it took me a couple minutes to actaully figure it out) Make the "Green" flush with the exterior of the wall. Meaning offset your "Glazing" panels and mullions. See Attached Image

Let me know if you have any questions!Just be careful if you have this curtainwall as room bounding and going all the way to the floor, as your room area would be incorrectly computed by that green boundary line. Use room separation lines in such a case and make your curtainwall family as non-room bounding to be safe.

[Dymaxion]

Actually they did fix the problem.... Have you ever wondered what the "Green" dashed line was??

Here is the Fix.. (i got tired of hearing everyones problems... haha just kidding, it took me a couple minutes to actaully figure it out) Make the "Green" flush with the exterior of the wall. Meaning offset your "Glazing" panels and mullions. See Attached Image

Let me know if you have any questions!

I don't see a green line? What am I missing?

[ing.arq.davidlopez]

I think that the solution is that the centerline off the wall has to be the centerline of the curtain wall, works to me, let me know, you can do the curtain wall again