adding keyplan

[MikeJarosz]

I'm adding a key plan to my border. I want it to have a visibility parameter so I can use the same border on all sheets, not just plans. There seems to be no easy way to do this, so I'm following one procedure I found online that exports a dwg, then brings it back into a nested family.

Apparently, a dwg import family cannot have a yes/no parameter, according to Revit help. But if I nest the import into a second family I can attach the y/n parameter to the nested family. According to the help, I have to click the element properties on the option bar to link the family to the parameter. But there is no "element properties" on the option bar. I'm looking for "associate family parameter" and it cannot be found anywhere. When I click on the nested dwg, the only options are label and instance.

Here's the help page: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/dl/item?siteID=123112&id=12840094&linkID=9243099

[Revitaoist]

Convert the DWG to native Revit lines:
Insert DWG in family
> explode
> convert lines
> change to one linetype
> copyclip to new family (to clean up the file)

[DaveP]

You can't add Visbility to the DWG, but you can nest the DWG inside a Generic Annotation family.
Check out this blog post
http://architects-desktop.blogspot.com/2011/10/revit-key-plans-more-detail.html

[MikeJarosz]

You can't add Visbility to the DWG, but you can nest the DWG inside a Generic Annotation family.
Check out this blog post
http://architects-desktop.blogspot.com/2011/10/revit-key-plans-more-detail.html

I dug up a key plan posting online that had a step by step procedure to do just what you advise. I got as far as nesting the dwg/family into a new family. That post then shows a screen capture to link the visibility parameter to the family. I have tried everything and cannot get to that screen. Something critical was left out of the instructions!

I'll try the post you suggest, and Taoist's suggestion too.

BTW:
I just got back from a 4 hour BIM seminar here in NYC. During the break I asked around about keyplans. Most of the people I asked felt key plans were more difficult in Revit than they ought to be.

[Steve_Stafford]

...Most of the people I asked felt key plans were more difficult in Revit than they ought to be...
and many people make key plans much harder than they need to be :)

[jsteinhauer]

My heartburn comes in when CAD gets brought into families. I like the approach of loading CAD into a family (Family1), then nesting that family into another family (Family2). I use this approach, but in family2 I trace over top of the CAD line work from Family1. Once completed I delete Family1 from Family2 to get rid of any burdensome CAD. I haven't had to do a Key Plan in a while, so I don't remember if I placed them in the Title Block family or on the Sheets. But I liked doing them as Detail Components, with filled regions setup w/ visibility controls.

Clear as mud? Thought so...

Cheers,
Jeff S.

[dkoch]

I dug up a key plan posting online that had a step by step procedure to do just what you advise. I got as far as nesting the dwg/family into a new family. That post then shows a screen capture to link the visibility parameter to the family. I have tried everything and cannot get to that screen. Something critical was left out of the instructions!

For what it is worth, here is how I have done key plans in the past. It does not address the issue of how to get the outline graphics into the key plan family (I had CAD exports that I was able to use for tracing purposes, and then deleted/purged). It does cover how to have the key plan as a nested family in the title block and how to set things up so you can show one of several different key plans (different areas highlighted) or none at all. I learned how to do most of this from previous discussions in this Forum (along with some trial and error).
http://architects-desktop.blogspot.com/2011/10/revit-key-plans-more-detail.html

[MikeJarosz]

My heartburn comes in when CAD gets brought into families.

Me too.

Creating a key plan tool shouldn't be too hard for Autodesk. Give it a view and a region to fit into on the border, and Revit does the rest!

[Revitaoist]

My heartburn comes in when CAD gets brought into families...

Me three.

That's why I copyclip the converted lines to a new file, no CAD info gets brought into the family or project. Then delete the family that was corrupted by the CAD insert. Once you've done it a few times it goes really fast, and you won't be so scared of CAD to Revit.

[Steve_Stafford]

My earlier snarky comment... many keyplans can be very informative with a general representation of the footprint, not even "to scale" or based on an export of the actual footprint. Shock/horror :)

The attached image is a Generic Annotation, nested in a Titleblock. Parameters control the filled regions that define parts of the building. The text and outline of each is there so filled regions can be turned off. You can either make the titleblock type driven, as in Building parts AB, Building parts BC or just make them instance parameters and customize what parts are visible in sheet view. Easy... once you've got a basic template for a keyplan annotation you can modify and build another in minutes. This one took less than five minutes to mock up from scratch and put it in a titleblock. A little more work and I can mark the entrances or other subtle features... (It's the same thing David describes in his blog post essentially)

It's not like we fuss with keyplans everyday either... well hopefully. :)

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I agree 100% Steve.
I've seen keyplans run the gamut from a 1:5000 'live' Revit view to complex dwg explode/imports into generic annotations.
No need to make it any more involved or detailed than what you've illustrated.
On projects with multiple 'hidden' elevations I've even put references for which building face is on the drawing sheet. It's just about orienting the viewer.

[damon.sidel]

I love key plans. We use them like Steve and Dimitri with some fun additional information on them. Usually what I do is in a ground or roof plan, I trace the building footprint as simply as possible. Hide everything but the lines I drew, export to ACAD, import to a generic annotation family and start tweaking! I often add the regions like Steve is showing or different line weights. For residential tower projects, I've created key sections that have color fills for the arrangement of unit types, so that in unit plans, I can show where that unit type exists. They can be quite effective. My biggest complaint is because Revit can't draw very short lines, sometimes I can't draw the outline of my building correctly.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I My biggest complaint is because Revit can't draw very short lines, sometimes I can't draw the outline of my building correctly.

Damon, if the line is so short Revit can't draw it, it's probably not relevant for the key plan ;)
The simplified key plan outline doesn't need to be literal just recognizable as the building footprint.

[jsteinhauer]

Intern 'What do you mean Revit can't draw a line that short? But we need to show that 1'-0" jog in the wall. How else are people going to know what they're looking at?'
Me 'Well, when you're building key plan is about 1/500"=1'-0", I don't think someone is going to see it anyways...'

Nuff said.

Jeff S.

[damon.sidel]

Intern.... Nuff said.

Jeff, I know you didn't mean to, but implying I'm no more experienced or knowledgeable about these issues than an intern is offensive. I think you probably know that I've been on here long enough (not to mention using Revit since release 5.0 and practicing architecture for 11 years) that I would hope you'd give me the benefit of the doubt.

Dimitri, I would normally be fine with simplifying the building footprint, but as I said SOMETIMES--in rare cases--it causes a real problem. In the attached file you'll see an image of a generic annotation key plan I created. It is imported from ACAD, so even the circled lines that are shorter than 1mm exist. However, I wanted to create filled regions to indicate the part of the building being shown on partial plans. As you can see, it doesn't always work. The circle numbered 1 shows how I had to draw the fill region for this zone. Not the end of the world, but quite noticeable even at a tiny scale. The lines circled and numbered 2 cannot be drawn either, so even though I wanted the region I started to outline in blue to include these connectors, I can't because of those silly little lines. Again, I compromised, but this is actually noticeable on the full-sized sheet and looks sloppy.

This is definitely a rare case. Normally I would agree with Jeff and Dimitri's sentiment, but sometimes there is merit to gripes about Revit's limitations. If Revit can't do something in the way we'd hope, sometimes we need to change our expectations, but other times we need Revit to change (or find an acceptable workaround/hack).

Thanks for listening and my apologies for the rant, but I need to clarify for my own piece of mind.

[jsteinhauer]

Damon,

Using 'Intern' is better than calling out the person by name. It by no means represents anyone on this forum. This was not meant to degrade your experiences or knowledge base. It is quick representation of an actual conversation, just to point out that a line 1/500" long isn't going to show up in a key plan, and therefore not that important. General shape & orientation of the building is more important. Coordinating plan orientations & match lines with the Key Plan is more important. Slight changes in the footprint of the building, are not that important.

When, in your example, you need to better define a key plan, we have taken the approach of creating a zoomed in representation of that area. We accomplish this with filled regions and detail lines with visibility controls. We make it appear as though you're looking through a magnifying glass.

Apologies,
Jeff S.

[Bastiat]

Here is how I do it.

1 - Convert your Revit Model to Cad.
2 - Clean up lines and scale the Cad file to the size you want (figure this out beforehand).
3 - Import the Cad file into your Revit Titleblock.
4 - Trace over the Cad file using revit lines (hint: If you need to do small lines but revit won't let you just draw them as small as you can, zoom in then click on the line and manually enter the distance you want - you might have to do this a few times to get to say 0.35mm).
5 - Select all the lines and then make a visibility parameter so you can turn the keyplan on/off in your sheets.

[damon.sidel]

we have taken the approach of creating a zoomed in representation of that area.... We make it appear as though you're looking through a magnifying glass.

That's a neat idea. I may give that a try.


Apologies,Jeff S.

Thank you. I appreciate that.



(hint: If you need to do small lines but revit won't let you just draw them as small as you can, zoom in then click on the line and manually enter the distance you want - you might have to do this a few times to get to say 0.35mm).

Hmm, very interesting way of getting around it. Of course if you need to create a fill region like me, that trick won't work because you have to create a closed loop and you may not be able to get the precision. But I'm going to try this out next time.

[jsteinhauer]

So here is a cropped image from one of our projects. It isn't so much to show the parameter of the building, but to keep text legible for 1/4"=1'-0" blocks of the overall building.

I hope this helps,
Jeff S.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I can see it now Jeff. 'The guy on AUGI told me I had to use 3D and displaced views for my keyplans'! :lol:
Seriously though, that looks good and is a logical approach where more detail is required. Nice:beer:

[jsteinhauer]

Sounds complicated. New view type in Revit 2017 ;-)

[DaveP]

I'm curious how those of you who are proposing a Keyplan View Type would make it work?
What would you show? Turn off everything except Walls? Then you're going to get complaints about gaps where the Doors are.
How about Columns? On or off?
Foundation Walls below grade?
What about Curtain Walls? Show all the Mullions at 1:500?
And if you do just show Walls, which ones? We don't show Interior Walls on our Keyplans, so how do you decide which Walls are left on? Now you're getting into a complicated Filtering system.

And you still need to have some means on created the Filled Regions and turning them on and off.
The whole thing boils down to the fact that a Key Plan is a diagrammatic image, and not really an actual View of the Model.

[jsteinhauer]

Exterior Walls only view Template set to show as a single line for the boundary of the building. Also show the match lines, and draw in filed regions, place text, and you're done.

I know it will never be that easy, but its just a thought.

Cheers,
Jeff S.

[Steve_Stafford]

If you consider how a new area plan (Gross Building) offers to generate the boundaries on exterior walls Revit could offer to generate lines that could be used either within a legend view (so it can be placed on multiple sheets) or placed in a generic annotation family. Some firms show building entrances so being able to generate single line with doors would help them too.

Just making it easier to generate the building outline and use it somewhere somehow would be a nice refinement. Especially without having to resort to exporting and importing...scaling etc.... it's possible but just not straightforward or elegant.

[damon.sidel]

It could be its own little set of tools that creates a "view" that can be placed on multiple sheets. You create a sketch just like a floor that has the same sketch tools we are used to including pick or pick wall. If you use pick wall, it will associate and move with that wall. If you create multiple regions to break it up like we all seem to like, you could assign each some graphics parameters to call out those regions for various purposes.

This would make it a separate, simplified (or simplify-able) object and as long as the view/legend/whatever could be placed on multiple sheets, you're good to go.

[Steve_Stafford]

All said and done... while it might "look" different than using a generic annotation family because they make a button that says "Keyplan"... it will still not satisfy somebody. While not seeming elegant the approach described using a nested family provides a pretty high quality result. So in the meantime, until Autodesk decides keyplans are the next killer improvement... I'm going to keep getting work done. :)

[Bastiat]

(hint: If you need to do small lines but revit won't let you just draw them as small as you can, zoom in then click on the line and manually enter the distance you want - you might have to do this a few times to get to say 0.35mm).
Hmm, very interesting way of getting around it. Of course if you need to create a fill region like me, that trick won't work because you have to create a closed loop and you may not be able to get the precision. But I'm going to try this out next time.

I had the same issue with the fill region. Just do two with one over the other and the fill pattern of each should match up perfectly and no one will know.

[patricks]

I've been doing key plans as a Generic Annotation Symbol with lines and filled regions, with instance visibility parameters, for some years now. Seems the best way to do it. We don't put them in our titleblock, because there's just no place for one. Plus when you have more than one plan on a sheet, you usually want them near each plan view to indicate which part of the building it is.