Fireproofing once again

[david_peterson]

So I've seen the videos on how to make add a fire proofing layer to a structural column and beam family. I get that. No problem.
What I'm not sure of is how to make that a separate family.
I have a user that's asked if we had a family for fireproofing. One that could be controlled by the arch model and not the structural model.
Some kind of face based something or other maybe.
Adding fireproofing to the structural model, isn't the right place in my mind for a couple of reasons.

1. Fireproofing is an Architectural Element and is Defined and Detailed on the arch plans.
2. The last time I asked one of our engineers about it, the general response is, "I don't care what color you paint it or what you put on it. Fireproofing isn't a structural item."
3. If Structural has to be in charge of it, it causes them a little heart burn because they have to chase it. It's just another thing they have to track.
4. It's not in their scope of work.

So how can I create a family that will read the properties of an element in a linked model? Is there a way, or is this just something that revit can't easily do?
Anyone have one created they'd like to share?
And why hasn't adesk addressed this yet? Then again we still haven't upgraded the text editor. One more item for the wishlist.

[Craig_L]

Dave I would simply ask, why not use a simple wall family for this? It has the fire protection parameter in it already. You could either model it as single piece and model it under "architectural" discipline, or you could model it as a composite wall but leave a gap large enough for the structural wall to place within.

For example ply(12mm) / insulation (50mm) / Structural block (leave a void of 190-300mm depending on your block) / ply (12mm).

You can then add your fire protection information to be scheduled etc into that wall family. Same deal with a single ply layer.

I am structural discipline, and I've mentioned this before in other posts and you are right. We just don't care about the other layers.
Furthermore, as far as documentation goes, all I want in my plans is the block element. The rest confuses my plans. Unfortunately with revit, you can not graphically hide, or turn off the layers that you dont need to see in a composite wall. (thats not entirely true, you sort of half can, unfortunately the hatch still shows but the cut lines will disappear. - either way its not good for documentation).
Next problem is tagging walls for elevations etc, its just a pain when its a composite wall, and sections etc etc the list goes on, the composites are not workable for structures teams.

The best way I have seen it done was the architect placed his composite walls with the space left open to place block inside it.
This has flow on effects - you have to double up on doors/windows because it only places on one wall element at a time. This actually is beneficial for co-ordination because once structures owns the walls, they should place the openings to match yours and this means they are aware of those changes (also it shows up well in a 3D view that theres an opening in ply and block where there should be a hole)
Unfortunately it doesnt work well if the opening in the block is wrong.... In plan the openings are obvious however. It just comes down to using old methods like clouding changes so if an opening is removed, size changed, or position changed then find efficient ways of communicating that with each other. Even copy/monitoring the openings is not a bad idea.

This way I can just turn off all arch walls and bam, I dont care how many layers, its fire rating...not relevant to me, and in the end, easily turned off this way.
This allows you also to paint your surfaces, put other wall based families on it as though its a wall etc.

[david_peterson]

Hi Craig,
Thanks for the response. Walls aren't a problem. We've got that all taken care of. Our problem comes with spary on fireproofing for steel beams and columns. Not a surround, but spray applied cementitious fireproofing on steel columns and beams, braces, kickers.... the hole structure.

[patricks]

My question is, does it HAVE to be in the 3D model? Spray fireproofing is something I would typically just show in detail views. For columns you're going to be wrapping it with studs and sheetrock, block, whatever, so just model those walls with adequate clearance for the spray fireproofing, and then show the actual fireproofing around the structural members in plan or section details.

[Craig_L]

Ah ok, totally misunderstood what you needed there...
Well thats an interesting question I guess you have a few options here.
You could create a 2mm/5mm (or variable) extrusion over your families, seems like a lot of work however to get that done for every element.
I've done a "similar" process to certain elements by nesting in cleats, and bolts - and adding those to a catalogue file, so certain members I can place with the end connections already modelled, and parametrically adjustable.


I just messed about in a structural framing family to see what options I had, and I found something that may work for you.
I added a new material, and I am then able to either replace this new material into that material specification (if that makes sense.)
Open any structural item, or any item really and go to the "material" tab
I duplicated the current material it was formed as and then -
At the top of the image I have circled the thermal properties - this "thermique" tab wasnt there, there was just a + sign which I clicked, which then opened an autodesk library and I picked "ciment" and clicked "replace current properties" (I think it was worded this way)...Im using a french version so...

Anyhow, I renamed my new material fireproof shotcrete, assuming this is the sort of spray on gunk you mean, I know the stuff not sure exactly what its called, thats irrelevant anyways as you can name the new material whatever you like.
I can now adjust all of the properties I want to, and if the engineers are NOT scheduling out weight etc, using your product info you could fill all of this out so you can schedule it out from the family.

95081

Other than that...I don't see any other way to achieve that, I havent tried the "add finish" feature in the architectural tab of Revit, but maybe thats worth looking into also...

[david_peterson]

Hi Patricks,
I'd tend to agree with you, but the issue comes up when things change and we want to run our clashes.
We also run into issue with drain line leaders, floor openings and what not. Not for just columns but for beams.
I'd love to be able to just say "Hey Archies, don't put anything within 3" of a face of column or flange of a beam.
But that never works. And then the MEP guys look at just the centerline of a beam and not our flange width or our details that show them where they can put openings when they turn our slab into Swiss Cheese. So I would tend to say Yes, I need it to be a modeled element. But again, making our structural types chase it is what I'm trying to avoid. If I add it to our structural column in the structural model, it's out of the scope of work for Structural and may not be in their contract to provide it.

[david_peterson]

Hi Craig,
I see where you're going with that. It's still not quite what I'm looking for.
Again I've seen the process on how to add this "layer" to a column or beam family as an extra extrusion. It works, it just requires the structural guys to track it and trace it. Again not in their scope of work. Not a structural item.
So I'm wondering if there's a way to create that second extrusion as a separate family, that reads the parameters of the linked structural modeled element, and applies the layer of spray-on. I'm not sure it's possible which is why I'm asking the question. I wish it was cause I think it'd be a great addition to any firms library.

[Craig_L]

I'd say quite easily yes its possible to do the extrusion as another family.
How I would do it, is take the catalogue and family file from (just for example) my Universal Beams family.
Edit this, rename etc, and I'm not sure how thick your fireproofing is (lets say 3") create this extrusions and lock its parameters based around the central position where the UB goes, delete your UB extrusion, or even make it a graphical element (under visibility) which you can turn on or off...although in reflection seems like you don't want the UB there you want to actually model a piece over the column.
In that new family create your new material type and set the properties as per the manufacturers info, then you *should* be able to place the extrsion using the centreline of the already modelled beam/column.
Then you apply this to the catalogue file so for all sizes it should work, you then model it as an architectural element so its filterable by the structural guys by discipline, you'd also be able to schedule it but you'd be stuck with schedule by column/framing/wall etc you wouldnt be able to get it all in one schedule as I see it.
Its a tricky one, I guess once you had it done, then you're all set but initially it would be a lot of setup.
To be honest, to do this to every family seems like a ton of work but I dont see it being impossible.

[Adam.K.King679414]

I am currently working in Oil and Gas structures, and we use fireproofing of steel quite often. So, I created a family to do this. At first I added it to the column family - which is the most robust way to do it, but REVIT cannot understand that I don't want the FP volume included in the steel MTO. So what I did instead was create a duplicates of the steel column and beam families that that has the has the profile still driven by a type catalog, but has the added box around that profile to account for fire-proofing thickness as a parameter. This means once the project is near complete on layout, I simply copy the members that are going to be fireproofed into the same place, then isolate them in a view, and go through and select the steel shapes fireproofing counterpart. This also allows the fireproofing to be accounted for in a separate MTO
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