What exactly is taught in current drafting classes?

[Coloradomrg]

I'm guessing I need to go to the some of the local schools and actually check out their curriculums, but it sure seems to me that the newest cad tech's aren't very adept at drafting, or using AutoCAD. In the past I have purposely hired 'drafters' with little to no experience because their schooling was decent enough that all I had to teach was the company stuff, AutoCAD commands and uses needed reminders not full on lessons. No past experience has typically translated to less issues learning a new way of doing things.

Some of my observations in the last 3 hires made in the past year, 2 of them were rookies and 1 was somewhat experienced:
Keyboard commands and command modifiers are nearly foreign concepts.
AutoCAD customization is a completely foreign concept.
Xrefs and block knowledge are extremely limited.
Drafting concepts are non-existent. Drawings are nearly impossible to read on the first pass.

When I went to school to become a Drafter, not a cad tech, I learned how to board draft, how to write (simple) lisps and customize my AutoCAD to work for me. I learned about and created block libraries, and learned how and why to use xrefs. These to me were some of the most important lessons I had. Sure seems to me that at least locally, someone is dropping the ball!

[BlackBox]

I agree with you... However, the only way we're going to get better entry level CAD Techs is by improving the quality of the information they're taught, and that will only happen when adept designers, users, etc. take teaching positions within their local schools... Above, and beyond (presuming not in lieu of) their own daily work.

... And I say that being a bit self-critical as well, as the very thought of taking a part-time CAD instructor position dawns on me each-and-every-time I pass the local ITT-Tech campus near my own home.

[Iceberg]

I agree. We just had a guy come in for an entry level position a few weeks back. The kid was going to ITT Tech half way through his bachelors degree right. I knew the kid was going to struggle with the the CAD test but setting stuff like the correct text style, multileader style, layers etc. basically basic CAD fundamentals was an epic failure. I sure as hell don't know what they are teaching these kids but damn it doesn't seem like they are getting basic training to compete in the real world.

[AlexCAD]

I also agree.
On the other hand I have also noticed the general inability to read drawings which is so frustrating when you put the time and effort into creating sections and details and then having to explain what each view is.
This is mostly noticed with Project Engineers and even Managers.

[cadtag]

While I'm in agreement with BB that instructors should be capable and professionally competent in the industry, I'll take issue with the widely prevalent thinking that that expertise is all that's needed. Teaching is a skill set, and requires passion for teaching others -- not just passion for the subject. I've known many competent do-ers over the years, but only rarely has that competence included skill in transferring their knowledge to others, whether co-workers or students. and even more rarely have i encountered skilled drafters/designers with any level of formal training or understanding of pedagogical techniques. Actually, i can count them on the thumbs of one hand.

Getting back to the OP, a worthwhile question you could pose to the local schools would be whether their curriculum is certified by the American Design Drafting Association, and if not, why not? ADDA is, AFAIK, the only organization that makes any effort or takes any interest in the education of professional drafters.

[Wanderer]

While I'm in agreement with BB that instructors should be capable and professionally competent in the industry, I'll take issue with the widely prevalent thinking that that expertise is all that's needed. Teaching is a skill set, and requires passion for teaching others -- not just passion for the subject. I've known many competent do-ers over the years, but only rarely has that competence included skill in transferring their knowledge to others, whether co-workers or students. and even more rarely have i encountered skilled drafters/designers with any level of formal training or understanding of pedagogical techniques. Actually, i can count them on the thumbs of one hand.

Getting back to the OP, a worthwhile question you could pose to the local schools would be whether their curriculum is certified by the American Design Drafting Association, and if not, why not? ADDA is, AFAIK, the only organization that makes any effort or takes any interest in the education of professional drafters.
My thoughts as well.
Back when my husband was looking for work, he applied at a local tech school (which occasionally hosted our LUG meetings). They said they wanted to bring in fresh blood to guide them to being more modern and progressive, as their teachers had all been out of the industry for awhile, and they couldn't send them to AU, because that was generally when final projects and exams were wrapping up. So, of course, rather than hiring a guy very connected in the industry and up to date on a wide knowledge... they hired a guy who knew a bit of cad but was a really experienced teacher at that level... but barely seemed to understand how most software worked.
One of their teachers had started using Inventor in his Mechanical class and all of those students were snapped up immediately... I told them (I was on their advisory board) that they needed to do the same with Revit, but, their teachers were all autocad folks.

I digress... I can't make the advisory board meetings anymore, so I don't know what their curriculums look like these days.

[Coloradomrg]

Teaching is a skill set, and requires passion for teaching others -- not just passion for the subject.

+1

I coach and tutor youth, but have little to no interest in teaching adults in a classroom setting!

[jaberwok]

First off, CAD Tech does NOT equal draughtsman, but it's worrying to hear that CAD Tech does not even equal CAD Tech.
I taught AutoCAD (specifically) for eight years - evenings and (some) weekends.
My predecessors were all qualified teachers who actually knew half of sod all about CAD ... or about drafting for that matter.
I packed it in because 1) I had a bad traffic accident and 2) the most important things at college were paperwork, schedules and "customer satisfaction surveys".

[BlackBox]

Teaching is a skill set, and requires passion for teaching others -- not just passion for the subject. I've known many competent do-ers over the years, but only rarely has that competence included skill in transferring their knowledge to others, whether co-workers or students. and even more rarely have i encountered skilled drafters/designers with any level of formal training or understanding of pedagogical techniques. Actually, i can count them on the thumbs of one hand.


True to form, cadtag, this is an excellent point... I can only add that, 1) I wish I had thought to state it first, and 2) teaching others is a great way of solidifying what you [think you] already know, as you (ideally) become accountable for the information you're communicating... I know, I know, the whole 'personal responsibility' thing. :lol:

[duhvinci]

I don't have a lot of exposure to the market of current CAD techs or draftsmen But from things I've read (not just here) I get a sense that there is a general lack of high quality learning going on. I purposely use the term learning because that is a two part equation. The teacher and the student. It's my belief the teachers really need to get back to basics first and foremost. That is, the purpose of drafting (to communicate) and the language (orthographic view projection, purpose of line types and weights, etc.) The second part of the equation, the student, will learn best when given reason to learn and most of the knowledge will be self taught out of in borne curiosity and desire fortified by the teaching.

It may be that the current state of affairs is a matter of students in class for all the wrong reasons. If they are just a warm body going in they will just be a warm body going out. Perhaps a little cooler.

Edit; Interesting what the "similar threads" below displays.

[BlackBox]

I don't have a lot of exposure to the market of current CAD techs or draftsmen But from things I've read (not just here) I get a sense that there is a general lack of high quality learning going on. I purposely use the term learning because that is a two part equation. The teacher and the student. It's my belief the teachers really need to get back to basics first and foremost. That is, the purpose of drafting (to communicate) and the language (orthographic view projection, purpose of line types and weights, etc.) The second part of the equation, the student, will learn best when given reason to learn and most of the knowledge will be self taught out of in borne curiosity and desire fortified by the teaching.

It may be that the current state of affairs is a matter of students in class for all the wrong reasons. If they are just a warm body going in they will just be a warm body going out. Perhaps a little cooler.

Edit; Interesting what the "similar threads" below displays.

Well said, my friend. :beer:

This reminds me that I need to catch up with you offline.

[dgorsman]

It think its partly on the students as well. If they are only looking to put a couple lines on a CV so they can punch a clock in a higher paying job, there isn't much an instructor can do. Some people have zero interest in learning how to do something (or even why they should be doing something), but instead expect everything to be provided as essentially check lists: to do (a), do ___, then ___, then ___. To do (b), do ____, then ____, then ____.

Might be classified as nerd-ism, I suppose. Given the option of being seen as a tech person or a manager on the fast track to executive vice-president, which is more appealing?

[duhvinci]

Any time BB. :beer:

[RevitJunky]

Im on the advisory board for our local tech school here and I did hire one person that turned out to be great. They focus on Revit and some cad and the program is about 18 months. An issue they are having is low enrollment in this program, only retaining 6-10 students a year and some of them are only taking it because they are required to take a trade through the local school for students who are at risk of dropping out. So maybe 2-3 students a year come out of there. The school just moved to a more central location off our local interstate so we are hopefull that enrollment will increase. As of now, we have had a rather difficult time recruiting anyone with Revit experience.

[sbrennan]

I didn't read all of the replies, but here's my response, as someone who graduated college 6 years ago, with a degree in Technology Education at a High School level, with an emphasis in CAD software.

I took my first drafting class in high school. I started out with hand drafting basic "block" designs and was taught the concept of visible, hidden, and center lines. We did both Isometric and Orthographic views, complete with dimensions (including keeping them organized).

In College, I found I had a knack for CAD-related work. I was also good at helping people learn, so I decided I wanted to be a drafting teacher. My college classes for drafting were basically the same as what I went through in high school (maybe because my high school teacher went to the college I attended, and had the same professor ... just 6-8. years prior to me attending the school).

During my student teaching, the teacher I worked with allowed me to create my own curriculum for the drafting class, and having gone through the class not just 2x as I listed above, but 3 more times as an undergrad teaching assistant for the class in following semesters, I decided to follow suite with what I was taught.

I have recently heard that some districts are taking CAD out of their curriculum, and I am disappointed with that. I have wanted to get back in touch with some of my college classmates to see what they are teaching, and perhaps even help them lead the way to better help their students be better prepared for a CAD role.

On the flip side of all that, there's a program called "Project Lead the Way." It uses STEM (Science Technology Education & Math) and integrates lessons learned in each subject into one another. High School students are able to take these classes and earn college credits, basically free of charge. Those classes are dictated not by the school or district, but by the organization leaders. Schools can't just teach it without being accredited.

[al.256209]

Hi you guys. My name is Al Whitley. I'm an architect in San Diego, and started working on AutoCAD on version 1.0. Over the years, my practice has grown to include an online CAD and BIM training program -- www.*****.com

One of the strengths of our programs is that WE DO teach our students the drafting fundamentals and integrate those skillsets into our curriculum.

I've shared and experienced the same concerns you are sharing -- and that's why I am continuing to develop our www.*****.com curriculum -- to provide our skills those "drafting lessons learned" by the "old geezers" who helped me become successful in assembling construction documents.

Just wanted to mention this.

[jeffl.63037]

I agree with cadtag. I learned drafting with pencil and paper from an old school teacher in high school, and more in college. I've been a designer/drafter for coming up on 30 years, and while I have a pretty good knowledge of what I'm expected to have the final plans look like, I know I'm a lousy teacher. I have a nasty habit of glossing over things I do without thinking them. I've written the company CAD practices manual, and am constantly updating it when a new user has trouble following something. It's typically some basic step I take for granted.

[myeager171]

I taught at a tech college for 4 yrs. The program was strictly cad 18 months long, 5 hr a day 5 days a wk. Then the program was shortened to 12 months still it produced students w as good if not a better understanding of architecture then lots of architectural school graduates I've seen because it started w the technical foundation. Unfortunately, the program went the way of the Dodo, the school was absorbed and the new parent was more concerned w making money and there seemed to be more money in medical courses so the department was phased out. College courses focus on the program not on what it is used for and there isn't enough time to focus on the foundations.

[bdixon427416]

I teach Architectural Drafting and Design at a local Career and Technology (votech) and have been doing so for over 14 years now. First, I would like to say if you are curious about what is being taught in your local drafting classes than you should take an active role in your community and visit your local school. If you want to take it one step further you could offer your assistance to the instructor in developing curriculum. I know in my neck of the woods it's like pulling teeth sometimes to get professionals to attend a local advisory committee meeting and provide input.
To answer your question is more difficult though. I know what I want to teach and what I actually get to teach are often two different things. Last week I was teaching an 11th grader what 3/4" + 0 equaled. I have in the past on a number of occasions taught lisp routines, pgp - command customization, xrefs and blocks on the AutoCAD side of class. The bottom line is that it is rare to have kids that can grasp these kind of concepts and more importantly it is even more rare, almost non-existent to find students that think it is "fun". I know, I know it shouldn't be about being fun but if I don't entertain these kids and make the program as much fun as possible kids don't sign up for it and if kids don't sign up for it the program goes bye bye. Education is a business.
So I walk a thin line of what is both entertaining and educational. For the last year we have been primarily using Revit with AutoCAD a very close second. All of my curriculum is project based. We do a platform framed shed in Revit and AutoCAD and build it out of balsa. Next we work with our local building inspectors to create a full set of custom residential code drawings and renderings, both using Revit. Through these 1st year projects they also learn about construction methods and materials extensively, drafting methods, views and linework. The second year students design a commercial building they do a set of architectural sheets, site plan, HVAC ductwork design and layout and plumbing plans, schematics and isometrics. Through the second year they learn about coordinating mechanicals and architectural, ADA compliance and commercial construction methods. The students have the ability to walk out of the program with Autodesk AutoCAD and Revit User certifications and NOCTI certification.
It's a tough job and unfortunately teaching is about 20% of it. I do strongly encourage anyone that has the time to get involved in any way with your local tech school.

[thomasmartinmsoe356600]

I am a graduate student in structural engineering and it seems that more and more companies are having engineers do their own drafting. With Revit I've talked to companies that it takes more time to communicate your designs to a drafter than to just do it yourself. You can actually engineer an entire building structure at the same time you draft it using plugins to transfer between programs using Revit structure. Engineering is also becoming much, much more automated as well as companies delegate more and more design to software. There are also design programs that automatically create details in AutoCAD. Those I knew who graduated before me, many were hired as entry level to draft and delegated smaller portions of design.

[ktouton]

I have been teaching drafting at a Technical College for 10 years. I also struggle getting 3 local employers to meet with me twice a year. We feed them either breakfast or lunch and the meeting lasts about an hour. More often than not I cannot find 3 people willing to attend. This is the PERFECT time for employers to tell the schools what the students are missing.

I am struggling with enrollment. As stated above, many engineers and architects are doing their own drafting. If students cannot find job postings why would they go into that field. Most job boards have plenty of jobs in the medical field. My school's population is about 45% in the medical fields.

My classes are 15 weeks. We meet for 6 hours a week. I have contacted employers to get prints of things their company has designed either for my mechanical students or my architectural students. I get nothing. My students get bored drawing something they have no idea what it is. I would love to have some of the first drawings my students create be used in their assembly drawing class. You close the loop that way. They will finally see how things go together.

If anyone would like to share drawings with me I will take them. These do not have to be current designs. These designs will not be used to create products or be sold.

If you feel the students do not meet your employment needs talk to the local college. See what can be changed and help them change it. If they are meeting your employment needs then talk to the college and let them know. Both are needed to keep a dwindling program alive.

[a.a.sharp422270]

As a recent grad of an Architectural Graphics degree I would have to say the majority of my cad training was in drawing tools and mechanical parts and not in architectural drafting skills and practices. All my major design/draw assignments were done in Revit. One class was done on the board but was more about line weights and perspective. Unfortunately the classes that would have taken us deeper into good drafting practices had to be cut because of the Dean of the Dept. decided that it took too units to finish the program and wanted classes cut. Revit was a solution in many ways as it takes care of alot of technical stuff that AutoCad does not. A full set of construction docs is easier to produce in Revit then AutoCad for the entry level draftsman. Unfortunately Revit is seen as the future of architectural drafting at this school so the need for in depth teaching on good drafting practices falls behind.

[grantalucas]

Just to say that as Ktouton has stated above.... yep I do all my own drafting. I am in a practice with 3 other mature Architects and they also do the same. No young drafters and no young Architects. Why? Both graduate architects and new drafters alike are useless because it is an industry that used to be based on an apprenticeship system. College and TAFE teaching have their place to learn the basics, but it is real world on the job (and lots of them) experience that makes the gun drafter. The student often paid money to be trained in the field under the guidance of an experienced architect. It was hands on & you learned on the job. Not much different now except that you no longer have to pay to get work. Teaching a newbie on the job actually takes lots of time and that costs...plus you then have to pay a wage as well. The gun drafters have had plenty of on the job experience. They did this over 10 or more years and they didn't do it with a few months of training. You pay then 50% more than a newbie & get 500% more work output. Plus you don't have to do it again. It is just too time consuming and therefore too costly to get someone with little or no experience to do my work for me.
Problems with getting anyone else to do my job for me are manifold. They are

1: The Chinese whisper principal: When I was working in large offices as the person at the end of the line I found that I was never given the correct or full information. By the time I got the job it had been passed from Director, to Project Architect, a Junior Architect and then finally to me. Now that I am the boss, if I talk to the client I find I can usually sketch up the brief in the same time it would take me to verbally describe it to someone else and guess what? Nothing is lost in translation so it is done right first time.
2:Problem is not just the CAD skill deficit but also a lack of construction knowledge: Yep New drafters and Architects alike seem to know nothing about construction. If you don't know how it is built you will struggle to draw it.
3:A limited responsibility for the work: A holistic overview is needed to do the work right & do it right first time. Drafters are usually only are given limited responsibility & if they see something outside the small area they have been given to work on they don't do anything about it as it is someone else's problem. This then leads to more problems and more cost & yep you guessed it I end up doing the work in the end anyway.

I was lucky enough to get a start when CAD was new. There was less to know so the CAD part only took 6 months or so training myself all day every day for around 80 hours a week. I got the construction knowledge as Contract CAD workers were rare then and it was easy to get a job if you had a PC & AutoCAD & went door to door. I did contract work & never had a day out of work for 10 years. It took that long to really get the hang of the business. I then started up by myself. I know I'm lucky & my way of "passing it on" is to train up a newbie in my spare time. I cannot afford to employ them as they will cost me money. I am however willing to spend a few hours a week on emails and phone calls. My procedure is that I give my newbie the jobs I don't want. The money my newbie makes is her own to keep & I mentor with advice when needed. It has been about a year now & I reckon she is getting close to being employable. Hopefully she also will take someone on one day and "Pass it on"

[rfrye648774]

I know personally that the "talent" I have seen lately has been horrible. This is not just from kids right out of school, but also from what I would normally consider seasoned vets. As a result, part of my job of CAD Manager involves spending four hours a day, three days a week, sitting over the shoulder of all of our CAD staff... Indefinitely at that! We have a few individuals who used to, or still do teach at the local ITT here, and it is horribly scary what I have come to see. I know that my 14 years of experience does no equate to much all the times, but when we have sent all of our users off site for training, provided online training access, have luncheons nearly every week or every other at the most, people still just don't get it. Is this something that is due to folks thinking that technology and complexity of our jobs would get easier, or is it just due to the fact that they don't really care and really just want to get the Professional License and sit back and watch?

[Coloradomrg]

So...

It seems that a disconnect between what employers need/want and what colleges teach is one big hurdle. The other hurdle is finding people who don't just want a J-O-B and a bigger check than there retail job.

Maybe I'll take one of my Friday afternoons and go visit the local program directors... see if I can gain a better understanding of their curriculum.

[Iceberg]

I know personally that the "talent" I have seen lately has been horrible. This is not just from kids right out of school, but also from what I would normally consider seasoned vets. As a result, part of my job of CAD Manager involves spending four hours a day, three days a week, sitting over the shoulder of all of our CAD staff... Indefinitely at that! We have a few individuals who used to, or still do teach at the local ITT here, and it is horribly scary what I have come to see. I know that my 14 years of experience does no equate to much all the times, but when we have sent all of our users off site for training, provided online training access, have luncheons nearly every week or every other at the most, people still just don't get it. Is this something that is due to folks thinking that technology and complexity of our jobs would get easier, or is it just due to the fact that they don't really care and really just want to get the Professional License and sit back and watch?

I fell the pain. I am dealing with a similar situation myself.

[toddw.schuler]

My experience is much the same, if you hire experienced drafters, they have their own preconceived notions on standards and methods. If you hire inexperience, you are getting users who have had some CAD class and nothing more, they don't know any drafting techniques or understand the purpose of a drawing.
With Machine component drawings, the simple X,Y,Z concept is completely lost on most and when you look at their completed drawings, it is impossible to read them. I have been finding it difficult to train or retrain some of the newer candidates as they are arrogant about their "style" of work. I think they believe it is an art form and not a document.

I think part of the problem is there is nothing in high school around the technical fields as all the schools have gone to teaching to the standardized testing started more than a decade ago. At one time you would get a kid who had a taste for drafting in high school and it became an interest, some when to school for architecture or engineering while others went to technical schools where they learned drafting on the board. Then CAD came along, early on, drafting was still taught, then CAD procedures were introduced. Now, I think they just teach CAD procedures, how to start a drawing, draw lines arch and circles and save, then plot. Students never have to learn how to use the drawing.

[tedg]

I guess it depends on the school(s).
Some schools prepare you better than others.

A lot of this has been discussed here (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?19968-Assoc-drafting-degree), here (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?140543-Seeking-Career-Advice), and here (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?148103-Should-someone-like-me-make-a-career-using-autocad) as welll as other similar threads.

I don't know exactly what is currently being taught at my alma mater, but when I graduated, (even before I graduated), I was well prepared to take what I was taught and hit the road running with a great drafting job, and of course built on that to a great career.

IMO, the bottom line is someone expecting to do well in a drafting/design career these days should have technical experience, drafting experience (actual board-drafting too), good computer skills, have learned advanced and current CAD skills and applicable programs, have an eye for detail and know what is really needed on the drawings to build/manufacture what they are designing, follow rules and standards, check thier ego at the door, have a passion for what they do.

[cadman70454]

Taking an AutoCAD class to learn how to draft is like taking a typing class to learn how to write a novel. My degree + drafting, algebra, trig, calculus & fortran classes got my foot in the door at a wood truss factory. While knowing the basics of drafting, I really learned production drafting skills on the job. This was precalculator days, 1978, so I also honed my production math skills.

I'm in the steel detailing business and what is missing and has been since the major steel companies went down is apprenticeship programs. Most learning is done on the job but a basic skill set is necessary to be able to advance in the industry. We have hired what's considered the best drafting/AutoCAD students at the local tech schools and none have worked out. They are clueless in all things. The best results I've had is field construction guys who want to work in an air conditioned space. They take AutoCAD/drafting classes at the community college and get the most out of it. They have field construction knowledge which is 90% of the job. The drafting part tends to be a lot simpler if you know what you are drawing. I've always said that I can teach a construction veteran how to turn out a set of drawings a lot faster that I can teach an ace AutoCAD operator how everything in the world is built.

[tedg]

Taking an AutoCAD class to learn how to draft is like taking a typing class to learn how to write a novel.
.... The drafting part tends to be a lot simpler if you know what you are drawing. I've always said that I can teach a construction veteran how to turn out a set of drawings a lot faster that I can teach an ace AutoCAD operator how everything in the world is built.
Nicely put (and congrats on your first post).
That's the "technical experience" I was talking about, you need to know what you're drawing, and how it's built/made.

This applies to most drafting positions and it depends on the size of the company and kind of work they do.
If you are designing wigits, than you need to know about wigits.
If you are an architectural drafter/designer, you may not be well-versed in civil or electrical design, and that's ok.

It's even better if you can work in many disciplines, which only comes with experience and life-lessons.

I work for an A/E firm where we have many government clients that will recieve our products, which need to be in certain cad standards.
So besides needing to know about what you are designing, a good cad designer needs to be able to work with different standards, teamed with different disciplines, and be able to work with complex work-flow configurations (such as xrefs, sheet sets, etc).

[jaberwok]

Nicely put (and congrats on your first post).
That's the "technical experience" I was talking about, you need to know what you're drawing, and how it's built/made.

This applies to most drafting positions and it depends on the size of the company and kind of work they do.
If you are designing wigits, than you need to know about wigits.
If you are an architectural drafter/designer, you may not be well-versed in civil or electrical design, and that's ok.

It's even better if you can work in many disciplines, which only comes with experience and life-lessons.

I work for an A/E firm where we have many government clients that will recieve our products, which need to be in certain cad standards.
So besides needing to know about what you are designing, a good cad designer needs to be able to work with different standards, teamed with different disciplines, and be able to work with complex work-flow configurations (such as xrefs, sheet sets, etc).

Yes, but -
if you don't understand what you're drawing and how it is made, the rest is just ticking boxes and producing a mess.
If you don't know why a steel component should be be forged or turned you're in danger of producing an engine crankshaft that splits in half the first time a driver puts his foot on the accelerator.

[tedg]

Yes, but -
if you don't understand what you're drawing and how it is made, the rest is just ticking boxes and producing a mess.
If you don't know why a steel component should be be forged or turned you're in danger of producing an engine crankshaft that splits in half the first time a driver puts his foot on the accelerator.
I agree, did something in my post make you think othewise?
I was just adding to what I think a professional drafter/designer needs to know to succeed, depending on the size and type of company you work for.

Maybe the "most drafting positions" got me.. I guess I mean the level of what you need to know depends on what you're drawing.

I work with structural engineers, I am not one. I can create a whole set of drawings with little to no input from them, but when it comes to actually sizing beams/columns and rebar size and spacing (etc), they need to provide me that. I know how the thing is going to get built and what gets field/shop designed and what we are responsible for etc.

So yes to do well as a drafter/designer, you need to know what you drawing/designing and how it's made/built.
I haven't worked out in the field as a steel fabricator/erector or foundation contractor, but have been around it long enough to know how it's done.

:beer:

[jaberwok]

I agree, did something in my post make you think othewise?
I know and "no".

I was just adding to what I think a professional drafter/designer needs to know to succeed, depending on the size and type of company you work for.

Maybe the "most drafting positions" got me.. I guess I mean the level of what you need to know depends on what you're drawing.

I work with structural engineers, I am not one. I can create a whole set of drawings with little to no input from them, but when it comes to actually sizing beams/columns and rebar size and spacing (etc), they need to provide me that. I know how the thing is going to get built and what gets field/shop designed and what we are responsible for etc.

So yes to do well as a drafter/designer, you need to know what you drawing/designing and how it's made/built.
I haven't worked out in the field as a steel fabricator/erector or foundation contractor, but have been around it long enough to know how it's done.
:beer:

I was in mech - mainly machinery, etc. but occasionally roped in for structural work. Once I had to start drawing a steel supporting structure before the engineers sized the beams so I had to make guesses. I undersized one beam - I forgot that the 50,000 litre water tank would be full of water. :banghead: :)

[mlg]

I'm about to date myself with this comment - I started as an apprentice draftsman in the mid 70's, long before CAD. There were basic skills that you needed to learn to be an effective draftsman. None of those skills are taught today even though they still apply! I tell my engineers that just because they have Microsoft Word on their computer that doesn't make them a Word Processor!! Likewise, having AutoCAD or C3D on the computer doesn't make them a CAD Tech!! Too many are taught to push a button but have no concept of why they push the button or what really happens when that button is pushed. There is something to be said for learning how to do things "long hand" and then applying technology to make it faster, easier, and more accurate!

I started using AutoCAD with Version 2.18! (Ancient history!) It's sad to see the art of drafting disappearing!!

[tedg]

I'm about to date myself with this comment - I started as an apprentice draftsman in the mid 70's, long before CAD. There were basic skills that you needed to learn to be an effective draftsman.
Wow you are old! :p



There is something to be said for learning how to do things "long hand" and then applying technology to make it faster, easier, and more accurate!

Totally agree, board drafting experience should be mandatory, you learn fast you don't want to hand-layout and draft things more than once = better drawing organization and forethought. Board drafting was a requirement before I took my cad classes a long time ago. I had been out of the board drafting-game for a while when I went back to school, and they made me take basic drafting again just to sharpen my skills.




I started using AutoCAD with Version 2.18! (Ancient history!) It's sad to see the art of drafting disappearing!!
R12 for me, but R14 was out.. so not that long ago. I think the art of drafting still exists even in AutoCAD by true, passionate drafters. However money and time are usually factors and no one wants to pay for pretty drawings anymore :(

[jaberwok]

I'm about to date myself with this comment - I started as an apprentice draftsman in the mid 70's, long before CAD. There were basic skills that you needed to learn to be an effective draftsman. None of those skills are taught today even though they still apply! I tell my engineers that just because they have Microsoft Word on their computer that doesn't make them a Word Processor!! Likewise, having AutoCAD or C3D on the computer doesn't make them a CAD Tech!! Too many are taught to push a button but have no concept of why they push the button or what really happens when that button is pushed. There is something to be said for learning how to do things "long hand" and then applying technology to make it faster, easier, and more accurate!

I started using AutoCAD with Version 2.18! (Ancient history!) It's sad to see the art of drafting disappearing!!

+1, [young'un :)]

[VW4x4]

I can't speak for other parts of the country but here in Pgh. drafting standards, procedures, and quality was a MUST 30 years ago! It absolutely
had to be done right, back in the 80's ...... Yes I'm old, and old school. I started using CAD systems before PC's were invented
and the drafters in those days were real drafters. I worked at Westinghouse R&D. Those drafters road me hard, and I have to admit they did good work.
Now, what I see today makes me sick. Like one poster said, give a guy a computer, and anyone can do drafting work, right? NO WAY....
What's even worst is that NO ONE in management knows this. Cad files from the web are filled with garbage. I have not found a single
person in the last 4 years I have been freelancing that would even has a clue how to make a professional looking drawing, keeping
the CAD files neat and orderly, all with in the electrical, or electronic discipline. Several of the companies I've worked with, have handed me
files to "clean up". I many time, just delete everything and start over. If you understand what I'm talking about, unless you manage the group,
good luck to you, your in an uphill battle....
ERIC
Pgh. PA
Last of the mohicans!!!
PS thanks for letting me vent.....

[Wanderer]

I can't speak for other parts of the country but here in Pgh. drafting standards, procedures, and quality was a MUST 30 years ago! It absolutely
had to be done right, back in the 80's ...... Yes I'm old, and old school. I started using CAD systems before PC's were invented
and the drafters in those days were real drafters. I worked at Westinghouse R&D. Those drafters road me hard, and I have to admit they did good work.
Now, what I see today makes me sick. Like one poster said, give a guy a computer, and anyone can do drafting work, right? NO WAY....
What's even worst is that NO ONE in management knows this. Cad files from the web are filled with garbage. I have not found a single
person in the last 4 years I have been freelancing that would even has a clue how to make a professional looking drawing, keeping
the CAD files neat and orderly, all with in the electrical, or electronic discipline. Several of the companies I've worked with, have handed me
files to "clean up". I many time, just delete everything and start over. If you understand what I'm talking about, unless you manage the group,
good luck to you, your in an uphill battle....
ERIC
Pgh. PA
Last of the mohicans!!!
PS thanks for letting me vent.....

90% of my career has been cleaning up other peoples drawings and models. Whew.
I think that even when people KNOW best-practices, they assume that they have always done things that way, and therefore, never check the things they start with (templates, blocks, etc).

Rejecting submittals for CAD Standards violations seems to be a huge shock to most companies. If I say 'your blocks aren't bylayer' they get all offended and say yes, they are, I know how to make blocks! And then I sit them down and make them look... and they're not... and they go all sheepish, oh, I grabbed those from one of my old projects and didn't check.
Well, no kidding... I've had that same conversation with 90% of the CAD Managers in St. Louis.

So, yes, we do have some education problems, but, it's not just that, even when folks know better, it's hard to be mindful of every single detail on a project. That's why we need lots of checks and balances.

Some stuff can't be found with a standards check on my end... like, finding a section mark, and then seeing that there's no corresponding detail on the details sheet.
:evil:

~stepping off of soapbox~ But, I digress. ;)

[VW4x4]

"money and time are usually factors and no one wants to pay for pretty drawings anymore "
This is all to true, but they pay now or pay a lot more latter. If drawing are a mess, it takes longer if figure
things out, machine shop charge more to build. Do a similar job, make the drawing correct but messy and
different, and it will cost a lot more, even the second time around. Send a similar drawing done right with minor
changes, and it will cost a lot less. This is the situation a lot of business managers have no clue about today.

ERIc
PGH> PA

[jaberwok]

"money and time are usually factors and no one wants to pay for pretty drawings anymore "
This is all to true, but they pay now or pay a lot more latter. If drawing are a mess, it takes longer if figure
things out, machine shop charge more to build. Do a similar job, make the drawing correct but messy and
different, and it will cost a lot more, even the second time around. Send a similar drawing done right with minor
changes, and it will cost a lot less. This is the situation a lot of business managers have no clue about today.

ERIc
PGH> PA

Speaking of which - does anyone remember the position of "D.O. Checker"?

[O.T. - excuse my ignorance but where is "Pgh" [besides being in Pennsylvania].

[dkoch]

Speaking of which - does anyone remember the position of "D.O. Checker"?

[O.T. - excuse my ignorance but where is "Pgh" [besides being in Pennsylvania].

I assume he means Pittsburgh, a large city is western Pennsylvania.

[jaberwok]

I assume he means Pittsburgh, a large city is western Pennsylvania.

Thanks, David.
I guessed so but I've not come across that contraction before.

[dkoch]

Thanks, David.
I guessed so but I've not come across that contraction before.

To be honest, I was guessing, too. Thanks to Wikipedia, I now know that PGH is the station code for the train station in Pittsburgh.

[jaberwok]

I've just re-read this thread and would like to add a point.

I consider technical drawing to be a language - a means of conveying (efficiently) data, requirements and intent.
Learning to use CAD provides you with the "words" but only knowledge of the practical how and why gives you the "grammar".

[mitchellvoss]

One of the top schools for draftsman here in Nebraska still teaches hand drafting. You spend 6 months of the 18 month course hand drafting before moving on to Cad and Revit. Lettering sheets and running bluelines. Every class is a prerequisite to the next. Graduates are trained with basic knowledge of all disciplines. Drafters are typically hired for Architectural, Structural, Civil, and MEP. The curriculum is overseen by representatives from multiple local firms.

[BlackBox]

So today I just took the AutoCAD, and Civil 3D 2014 Professional certification exams (I passed both), but there was a guy behind me to the right of the lab who, from speaking with the receptionist before I left, didn't pass his Civil 3D exam... Again.

Now, I'm not so much knocking him (I don't know him, and frankly felt bad for him, his employer [the County] was footing the full price bill), but what stood out to my mind, is the receptionist's follow up about how they (an ATC) are on contract to provide ongoing training with the County he works for, and that this guy has been using C3D for years, and already received their essentials, and advanced user training each year.

Not sure what my facial expression must have looked like, and I get that just because something is taught well, doesn't mean it sticks... But I didn't think it spoke well of the quality of their fee-based training, to be diplomatic... And this is one of *the* largest training brands, imagine that, err... Well, never mind. :mrgreen:

[duhvinci]

Congrats on your certs BB.

Some folks don't test well - that may be that fellow's problem.

[BlackBox]

Congrats on your certs BB.


Thank you, Sir! :beer:

/OffTopic

[CAD_Vader]

I agree with just about everything that's been said here. I do some caveats though. Your skills and technical knowledge are the two things that an employer look for. If you have both for the subject matter your are interviewing for, then you are a great candidate. However, there are instances where on the job training IS where you learn your technical knowledge. I know these are not the norm but go with me for a minute if you will.

In my professional career I have been an architectural, civil, oil piping, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, structural, low voltage and telecommunications draftsman. In the spirit of full disclosure, I wasn't qualified with technical knowledge for any of the positions when I was hired. When I first started as an architectural draftsman I was fresh out of high school with 2 years of HS drafting classes (hand and CAD). My only experience with the construction of a building was my dads storage shed behind the house. 4.5 years later I was lead drafters in my company and completing jobs including wood and metal framing, steel construction, poured concrete, tilt up concrete, mason block wall, basements, commercial and residential and completing plan checks mostly on the first review if not direct first submittal.

MEP, civil and oil came while the market was terrible and it was take what you can get. For 3 years I was completing oil spill containment drawings and calculations, crude oil pipe delivery, signal flow and single line diagrams, air handling and steam distribution. My limited experience from the architecture is was allowed me to complete the MEP and civil, just the basic AutoCAD skills got me the job in the oil industry.

Now I'm working in low voltage technology and telecommunications. Again it was past experience and a desire for technology knowledge that landed me here. I had no previous telecom experience other than retail versions of switches and routers. I had no enterprise experience. So I would say that over the past 13 years all of my knowledge has been on the job training, but it has been my ability to adapt my cad skills to the job at hand that has made me successful.

So while I agree that there is a need for both technical knowledge and drafting skills, the technical knowledge can be taught/learned, as can the drafting skills, however if I am looking for someone to fill a drafting position, the first thing I look at is drafting experience, not technical knowledge.

P.S. I am currently on the interview panel for new drafters for our company. Of everyone that has applied for the position we have not received one person with telecommunications experience. The closest we have come is someone with P&ID, but still not even close. So I'm looking for the next best thing, someone that is teachable that has the CAD knowledge that will make them beneficial. I can teach you telecommunications, what I don't want is to teach you how to use paper space or how to change the plot style to the right one for the project.

Just my $1.50...my opinions are worth more than $.02...in my opinion.

[cadpro78]

I'm guessing I need to go to the some of the local schools and actually check out their curriculums, but it sure seems to me that the newest cad tech's aren't very adept at drafting, or using AutoCAD. In the past I have purposely hired 'drafters' with little to no experience because their schooling was decent enough that all I had to teach was the company stuff, AutoCAD commands and uses needed reminders not full on lessons. No past experience has typically translated to less issues learning a new way of doing things.

Some of my observations in the last 3 hires made in the past year, 2 of them were rookies and 1 was somewhat experienced:
Keyboard commands and command modifiers are nearly foreign concepts.
AutoCAD customization is a completely foreign concept.
Xrefs and block knowledge are extremely limited.
Drafting concepts are non-existent. Drawings are nearly impossible to read on the first pass.

When I went to school to become a Drafter, not a cad tech, I learned how to board draft, how to write (simple) lisps and customize my AutoCAD to work for me. I learned about and created block libraries, and learned how and why to use xrefs. These to me were some of the most important lessons I had. Sure seems to me that at least locally, someone is dropping the ball!

I agree - somewhat. I do agree that CAD drafter (CAD monkeys) of this century can't think for themselves when it comes to their manager telling to create 'ABC' design and instead they create 'XYZ' design. However, I don't think it is right to say they aren't very adept at utilizing AutoCAD or Revit or any CAD software since they are many ways (especially in today's software) to skin a cat. They may not need to use lisp files to do something. They may have learned in school how to do it faster.

In your post, you said you customized AutoCAD to work for YOU. Keyword there is you.

[Opie]

They may have learned in school how to do it faster.
They may have learned how to do it in school. I'm not so certain on if it is faster. :p

[Coloradomrg]

In your post, you said you customized AutoCAD to work for YOU. Keyword there is you.

Yep, and I expect anyone who claims to be adept at using AutoCAD to be able to do the same for themselves, or at the very least to understand that it is possible. Not knowing how to make it happen is not a bad thing, not knowing that it can even be done is.

Customization saves time. Time is money, no matter the company or industry. Every "drafter" has repetitive tasks, and if they can't find a way to make them happen quicker, they simply aren't as valuable to a company as someone who can.

[cadpro78]

Yep, and I expect anyone who claims to be adept at using AutoCAD to be able to do the same for themselves, or at the very least to understand that it is possible. Not knowing how to make it happen is not a bad thing, not knowing that it can even be done is.

Customization saves time. Time is money, no matter the company or industry. Every "drafter" has repetitive tasks, and if they can't find a way to make them happen quicker, they simply aren't as valuable to a company as someone who can.

Agree wholeheartedly.