cloud-based Revit?

[jessica.146534]

I'm hoping that once again the AUGI forums can save the day. I have a collaboration question:

I have a large project (my architectural Revit file is 236MB) and I'm collaborating with structural and MEP consultants in different offices (some are in different states). I would like to eliminate the constant transfer of each others' Revit files and instead have everyone working with "live" files. We would all be linking the other files into our own, but I don't want to waste the time uploading my file to AutoDesk360 and then download and import everyone else's file - this is all very time-consuming.

Essentially what I'd like to have happen is when I am working on my architectural model and Save to Central, it saves my changes and also updates my file that the consultants have linked into their Revit files. Just like with a work-shared file, when I make changes and save to Central it updates to my coworkers elsewhere in the office, I would like the file to update the linked file that the consultants are using.

Is this possible? I am under a tight deadline and any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[damon.sidel]

I think that you want is to use Revit Server. I've never used it, but think that what you are describing is what it is for. I'll let others answer with more information, but at least having a name might help you take a few steps on your own.

[DaveP]

First of all, if you are under a tight deadline, I would never recommend jumping to a new process.
But, if you really want to:
Revit server is the appropriate method for working on the same Revit model in multiple offices in the same company. It is not, however, intended for use between different firms. Grossrly oversimplifying, everyone has to be under the same network domain.
Autodesk is testing a true cloud-based project collaboration system called Project Skyscraper that sounds more like what you're looking for.
Here's more info:
http://inthefold.autodesk.com/in_the_fold/2014/06/autodesk-at-aia-2014-project-skyscraper-dynamo-advance-the-future-of-bim-for-architects.html
This is, however, only in testing and is also by invitation only.
Not sure I'd be willing to put a high-visibility project on it, but I guess somehow has to....

[dhurtubise]

I have to disagree with you Dave :)
Revit server will do exactly that(i also strongly suggest throwing a Riverbed in the mix to speed up things).
Keep in mind a few things
- A 250MB models is pretty big for Revit Server
- Even if your consultants are on the same Revit Server you still have to reload the files and there's no decent mechanism to let you they've updated
- I don't want to see the consultant work in progress throughout the day

That said, we still use a goof old FTP. Our files are automatically transferred to the FTP every morning. The consultant does the same. Then they are copied from the FTP to the Project folder. So when the models are open in the morning you get the latest version. No manual work required, totally automated. :)

[DaveP]

I guess that's news to me, Daniel.
When we tried it, you had to have people inside your firewall to have access to the Revit Server. Meaning that a consultant in a different company would either have to be given a user name inside our office, or we'd have to set up a trust relationship somehow outside our firewall.

But I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Admittedly, I'm speaking about an older version of Revit Server.

[dhurtubise]

If they are not inside your network you simply need to establish a VPN and you're good to go. You then have to go defining the Role of each server but it got a lot simpler on 2015.
Our IT guy did a class at RTC EU last year on it

[meng005]

I agree with dhurtubise - we have had over five separate Revit Server collaborations with outside firms. Ironically, working with larger firms has been more difficult due to tight security policies and overlapping IP ranges in configuring the VPN.

Communication is the best indicator for success for inter-firm Revit Server projects. Both IT support teams need to be responsive.

[kyle.bernhardt]

Jessica,
Today, you've got 3 options:

1. Invest in a technology like Panzura across all project stakeholders.
2. Invest in a centralized virtualization approach where all stakeholders remotely operate a virtualized instance of Revit.
3. Invest in a Revit Server infrastructure and architect proper network access between WANs of the stakeholder firms.

Realistically, switching to any of these options on a project mid-flight is a non-trivial effort, and I'd wouldn't recommend it. Your best bet is to try it on a new project from the start, after coordination amongst your stakeholders.

I should add that your stated scenario is exactly why are have been building, and plan to launch soon, our Project Skyscraper (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Finthefold.autodesk.com%2Fin_the_fold%2F2014%2F06%2Fautodesk-at-aia-2014-project-skyscraper-dynamo-advance-the-future-of-bim-for-architects.html&ei=Jjc9VMTJDpLooAT5vIGQAw&usg=AFQjCNEuUHBGnceH5aike0W3hUV48VyuGg&sig2=TK_Cso3yNVbG4zXs1NlSYg&bvm=bv.77412846,d.cGU). This cloud service allows multiple firms to collaborate on the same central model(s) without any IT investment, while also allowing the entire project team to view, search, and socially interact with the project models in their web browser or mobile devices without PDF or DWF formats required. We have a running beta if you want to check it out, send me a PM. Full disclosure, it is not for active production work, so it won't solve your current project challenge. You'll need to wait until we launch.

Cheers,
Kyle

[meng005]

....

1. ...Panzura/Advance2000 - Let someone else manage/support the system. It is can be expensive and complicated for customized environments, however it does not commit you to high capital costs.

2. ...centralized virtualization (Citrix/VMware/RDP [VDI]) - It has a high capital investment in hardware and support, and can be inconvenient with sharing the environment with external users and 24/7 project schedules. Can support more users, more softwares, and is robust with low bandwidth or high latency connections.

3. ...Revit Server infrastructure - Gives the most flexibility for each firm with different customized environments, but is not robust with low bandwidth or high latency connections. However, it is the most affordable option, and can be relatively easy to implement so long as everyone agrees to using a VPN connection.

....

If you are collaborating across the globe, none of the technologies manage inter-continental traffic across 12+ time zones. I would be curious if Project Skyscraper has that functionality.
In the meantime, I would use a Revit Server Network to bridge VDI - just a thought :)

[equinn]

meng005,
You have certainly hit the major technologies for connecting, but I want to let you know that some of your assessments aren't completely correct.

Panzura and Advance 2000 are completely different technologies.

A2K offers to host your data, and provide virtual desktops for doing the work on that data, so really it falls under the VDI category. It is a good solution, but the VDI experience is relative to the latency to the A2K VDI. Also, you would have to plan if you want all of your coporate data stored, or just that project. We tried this before we invested in Panzura.

Panzura on the other hand is a NAS device with a cloud back-end. Panzura (the company) does not manage any of your data. You can choose a public cloud back-end, or a private cloud with On-Prem back-end, but in the end, your project data is completely in your control. As far as collaboration goes, Panzura does have a solution called "Secure Connect" that allows multiple companies to work together on a Revit project. There is some set-up involved considering two different companies will have separate domains, but it is not a difficult process. Of Course there is always the question of who is going to pay for the Panzura controller and the licensing.

Also, Panzura has deployments that DO span around the world, and do so effectively. Some third world countries that have a difficult time with consistent internet connections can be troublesome, but that would be the case for any solution where collaboration is key.

Revit Server is of course the least expensive, but if you are working on large models, you will want some for of WAN optimization in place, and suddenly the cost is going to increase significantly. Also, with Revit server, all of your other data (Specs, Photos, etc. will have to be transmitted and stored somewhere separately. At least with the other options, all of the project data would be stored in a single solution/location.

I hope this helps a little. Best of luck!!

[meng005]

Thanks for the clarification equinn.

[david_peterson]

I throw my 2 cents in the mix as well. We are now in construction on a very large project, consisting of about 90+ models to create the over all project.
File transfer was going to be a huge undertaking if it needed to be done manually. VPN wasn't an option for our firm based on type of other projects that were in our office. Couldn't risk the network security and didn't want to use a DMZ set up as we didn't want to deal with it.
So we set-up and established a process using ftp. While you don't get instant updates (you basically could if you really wanted to, but didn't really seem necessary) we did get them twice a day. Using FileZilla and Rsync, we were able to script a process to exchange deltas and push them to the model located on the ftp. Our consultants also followed the same process. We then wrote a script to check for changes to the models on the ftp and pushed those back to our project drive. We've also done this for one project at 15 min intervals.
Cost for software $0. Hardware cost (since we already have our ftp server running) $0.
Without getting really expensive, that's about as good as it can get. Revit server with Panzera or Citrix and all that other stuff gets really expensive really quick, and if it breaks, you have to rely on someone else to fix it. We've run into issues with these 3rd party hosting site where they are non-responsive. Bill start to add up really quick if you get say 100 people (when you include all disciplines) that can't do anything but twiddle their thumbs cause a connection dropped.
Just my 2 cents, but ftp and Rsync as worked for us for a number of year now and I don't think I'd want to go any other way.

[dhurtubise]

We use the same process as David mentioned on EVERY job with the consultants.

When we deal with local architect it's Revit Server with Riverbed and a very carefully model plan :) I don't see the need of having your consultants file "live" at all. They always move at a different pace then we do anyways.

[DaveP]

Re: Project Skyscraper:
Coming soon!
Watch (aor attend) AutoDesk University for announcements

[david_peterson]

As soon as it gets approved for use on DOD and Homeland Security projects, I'll think about it.
Question is how much are they going to charge you for use, and what happens when their network breaks?
My current solution is basically free.

[Norton_cad]

What about Project Bluestreak?
http://bluestreak.autodesk.com/Home/Login

[luke.s.johnson]

I have reviewed the posts in this thread, but I am also aware that WAN technology is changing and improving all the time. So, let's say we have two architectural teams on different sides of the globe, but both with a good internet connection. What would be the best way to get these to collaborate live on a single Revit model?

The Collaboration for Revit / Skyscraper option is not really viable in March 2015, as it hasn't rolled out past the USA yet.

There are Panzura or Nasuni type offerings, which are hardware-based WAN accelerators, essentially giving you a shared folder structure that can work with 'normal' Revit file sharing (ie. no Revit Server required).

Then, there is the traditional Revit Server methodology (requiring a Windows Server instance to host it), which could run either in a VPN scenario (this has certain IT and performance limitations), and / or along with one of the WAN accelerators (like Riverbed).

Finally, we have pure thin-client or screen sharing type offerings, like Citrix. In this scenario the 'live' data is not stored at either geographic location, but at a single virtualized environment somewhere else.

The question is: who out there in the wide-Revit-world is actually doing this? Who is using a globally accessible service to do live site-to-site collaboration on shared Revit models, and what has been your experience? Looking forward to your thoughts...

[dhurtubise]

We do Luke, actually we've been doing it since 2007 on the Columbia University job. Half our team is in Paris, the other half is in NYC and the local architect is also in NYC. Job started without Revit Server obviously and is now using RS. The setup is now replicated on jobs in France, the UK, the US and so on so forth. So i guess i can say it's been tested :)
We are also using Remote Desktop Connection on a job in Paris for the site office. We couldn't get the appropriate environment from the builder.
Note that this model is ONLY use for the architectural files. All the consultants (structure, MEP, signage, etc.) are shared using FTP and being pulled and push from the RS automatically.

The ability to work on the same file is invaluable. But it also has some limitations :) Be very careful with a few things:
- File Size
- Number of people in a file
- Modelling

[david_peterson]

Coming soon to a reseller near you, it's A360 (http://autodesk360.com/). The replacement for Revit Server. Full Cloud based storage. Think of it as revit server on the cloud. They've got some neat tools, but it's not quite ready for primetime yet IMHO. They showcased it at AU this year, but I'm thinking they should have waited for a year.
But that's the next great idea. I think it's good for an IPD delivery, if you need to have a design team and sub-contractor/contract in the same model. (Design team runs the trunks/mains and subs do the final connections and placements. Not sure if it's the best thing for all projects, but it's worth a look. Again main problem is if your network connection is down, you're not going to be doing a lot of work. But that's the same case with Revit Server.

[luke.s.johnson]

We do Luke, actually we've been doing it since 2007 on the Columbia University job. Half our team is in Paris, the other half is in NYC and the local architect is also in NYC. Job started without Revit Server obviously and is now using RS. The setup is now replicated on jobs in France, the UK, the US and so on so forth. So i guess i can say it's been tested :)

Great, thanks for the feedback. So are you using a VPN connection, or have you set up a replicated WAN using Windows Server technology? Or is there some hardware solution that you are using? Sorry for the questions, but I'm keen to find out what works in the real world...

[dhurtubise]

Great, thanks for the feedback. So are you using a VPN connection, or have you set up a replicated WAN using Windows Server technology? Or is there some hardware solution that you are using? Sorry for the questions, but I'm keen to find out what works in the real world...

No worries :)
VPN with each location and Riverbed on top of that as the hardware solution.
As for the WAN, that's what we use for backup. Basically France is replicated in real-time in Italy and vice-versa. If anything goes wrong we can simply switch the DFS and keep working. But that's more of a backup solution then a real world project usage.

[raj]

I have experience with every possible scenario. I do a lot of these, I jokingly call myself a Building Architect + System Architect :-) My 2 cents:

- For 2 to 3 firm collaboration, Revit server(s) can be deployed on premise and/or in the cloud. It does not require a VPN and be securely implemented without the overhead of VPN. WAN Optimization definitely helps, but can also be achieved without big CapEx like Riverbed or Panzura.
- Autodesk Vault with distributed servers can be a great solution for large enterprises. Not realtime, but check-in check-out machanism.
- C4R (collaborate for Revit) is a simple and neat solution if "data in cloud" is permitted for the project and HIPAA like security is not required.
- Virtualization (e.g. Citrix vGPU) is the way to go for large teams and for data security. Can be on private or hybrid clouds.

[luke.s.johnson]

- For 2 to 3 firm collaboration, Revit server(s) can be deployed on premise and/or in the cloud. It does not require a VPN
Hi Raj,
Thanks for your advice, it is much appreciated.

My understanding was that Revit Server required a common domain name in order to work, as it has a Windows Server host OS? How are you working around this without using a VPN?