How do you really use Revit

[beatrix.kovacs1838]

Hi,

We are currently evaluating Revit and would like to start a discussion to find out how one can really be productive by this software.
I went through some of the tutorials and found Revit can be very beneficial at the early design phases but I am not convinced one can take a model through up to the construction documentation phase.

I like a lot the easy-to-use modelling features, the way you modify the model by dimensions, but I have doubts wether Revit can handle large, complex buildings. I opened up some of the training files but was not able to modify anything due to the amount of error messages that came up after any modifications. I am not sure that all the constraints you have to define during the beginning of a project will actually be a time saver later on. Do you really use Revit with all these constraints, or you rather have them switched off all the time???

I must admit that I use also ArchiCAD (although we use AutoCAD in the office) and secretly would like if the office converted to ArchiCAD, but I am also open-minded and if I found a software that would do the job better than ArchiCAD I would be happy to change.
So I would also like to ask the ex-ArchiCAD users to tell me why they changed to Revit, are they really more productive with it?

Best Regards,

Beatrix,
Architect
www.rainey-petrie-johns.co.uk

[PeterJ]

I have used Revit succesfully on projects up to a little over a million pounds and been quite satisfied with it. Tnese days, of course, that is still a pretty small project. Historically there has been some question mark over its performance with large files but these have been addressed and I think continue to be addressed in new releases.

There are speciific tools whiche enable team-working (worksets) and working practices which ensure smoother quicker operation overall and if these are addressed in training then you should be able to work on quite large buildings.

I don't come from an ArchiCAD background so you need to look to others to help you there but I hope my comments, such as they are, are helpful.

[cphubb]

As a former ArchiCad and current Revit user I can offer you the following top 10 pros and cons to Revit vs. ArchiCad

1. Objects - Revits family editor and in place creation far exceed ArchiCad GDL for speed and ease of use.
2. Editing in 3D - Revit easily out performs ArchiCad when editing in hidden line view (or shaded).
3. Multi-user performance - Worksets can be daunting at first but once mastered offer better performance and flexibility than ArchiCad.
4. Rendering - ArchiCad (IMHO) has a better rendering engine than Revit. AcuRender is a competant package and works well for most situations.
5. ODBC output. ArchiCad cannot do this.
6. Stairs - ArchiCad has slightly better stairs.
7. Topo and Site - ArchiCad makes you buy an add-on. Revit has it in the base package.
8. Panoramic Views - ArchiCad has Quicktime VR. Revit does not.
9. Dwg export. Programs seem equal in this regard. (Although Revit will be one + release ahead due to Autodesk ownership.)
10. Drafting views and drafting on sections elevations. Archicad does not handle this as well a Revit. I find that non-power users can continue to be productive by using 2D tools for drafting while the others work on and update the model.

[beegee]

As another former Archicad user, I agree with cphubbs points.
I'd also add that Revit is far easier to plot from than Archicad and that you don't spent a fortune buying add ons ( to do exotic things like stairs ) and that with Revit, you dont need to become a programmer learning GDL. Did I mention the disconnection between sections and the model in Archicad ? Did I mention that Revit has a more intuitive interface ?

Can you use Revit right through from design to construction documents ? absooooluuutely. In fact thats the main reason we swaped out of Archicad. For us, it just didn't go the distance.

But I'm not completely one eyed, there are some things Archicad does better and cphubb mentioned a couple. The photographic background setup in Archicad was to die for. I'd better go straight to Revit's Wishlist Forum now and add it in.

[beatrix.kovacs1838]

These all sound very promising!
Although I would still need more proofs that Revit can handle large buildings.
With ArchiCAD I already worked on new developments up to 50 000 m2 and enjoyed the benefits of having an integrated 3D model to produce plans, sections and elevations. It really paid off when having had to create numerous alternatives for scheme design, changing things were just so easy in ArchiCAD.

The Revit projects I've seen so far did not convince me. When I dragged a wall it brought up a lot of messages and in the end it turned out that the change could not be done because of the established relationships could not be changed. This is what worries me. Are these projects from the Revit CD just bad examples? Do you at all use relationships between different objects in Revit? Or is this something that was implemented purely for marketing reasons and you try to avoid using them?

Are there any reference files of large projects available for the public to prove it really works?
Looking forward to your input!

[christopher.zoog51272]

While, I am not allowed tp share the .rvt file (it’s 40 megs for one thing, legal issues are another), I have attached a few sheets from a rather large job in cd’s at the moment.

It’s a $9 million, 115 dwelling unit plus support services (commercial kitchen / dinning, fitness center , stores, doctor’s office,etc) apartment building for moderate to low income seniors. The project is 4 stories and around 118,000 sf. It sits on rather complicated foundation with many steps to accommodate the big grade changes. The building itself steps up and down the site to accommodate local zoning laws.

Please understand that these are a part of a work-in-progress bid set that we are getting ready to issue. There are probably a bunch of stuff to still clean up, it still has our in house “red-lines” on.

I’ll post some 3d views when I get into the office, I’ll also elaborate a bit more.

-z

[christopher.zoog51272]

Here is 3d view:
http://www.zoogdesign.com/albums/revit/2k222_00_DDEV_LOCAL_FILE_CJZ.sized.jpg

here is a view of those wacky foundations. I decided to use the "floor" method this time as the "steps" were just too numerous to use walls.

http://www.zoogdesign.com/albums/revit/foundation.sized.jpg

[cphubb]

Our firm actually cut our teeth on a 45,000 sf church building. We have maintained the model from the end of schematic design (when we purchased Revit) through construction Admin.(in progress.) Along the way we learned about plotting, Autocad References, worksets and "drafting" vs. modeling.

Although I would not rate this project as the poster child for Revit, I would note that we have 2 previous non-Cad principals working on the project, three low-level Autocad drafters and 2 medium level Revit users working on this project. I don't think any of this would be possible with ADT or Autocad. We have both and have never had this level of participation.

To address the ArchiCad issues. I feel ArchiCad is a great software package. However as noted in this forum and many others the level of expertise required to sucessfully operate the software is much higher than Revit. (I used ArchiCad from rel. 1 through 8). I hope some others will post stories of larger buildings they have created because I feel Revit is more than capable of handling large projects.

Chris

[John K.]

Zoog,

Somewhat of a non-sequitur buuuuuuuut, That foundation model you provided is very cool. Kinda' looks like a state drawing of an archaeological site...

[beatrix.kovacs1838]

Thanks for the files! The drawings and the 3D views indeed look convincing.
Although an actual Revit file that one can experiment with would be just ideal. I am still waiting, maybe someone has Revit files to share:-)

I am still curious how much you guys are constrainig dimesions, locking parts of the design and how you can work with it, is Revit and your hardware able to cope with it on large projects?
I also think that setting up constraints is against architectural thinking. I mean it may work for simple things like changing the story height will automatically change the wall heights, but can it be beneficial when there a lot of building parts that are affected by the change, like stairs, roofs etc... Is it not more of a problem to follow what and how was changed by Revit, then to make the change yourself the way you really want it?

[PeterJ]

Phil Palmer, who sometimes posts here and is a UK user, tells a story of changing the size of a lift shaft in a 12 storey (I think) block. To do this all he did was move the shaft wall by 600 mm and everything else rippled through without the model crashing. I don't know how much clean up work he had to do but that kind of change management is a good example of the use of constraints and the ability of the software and hardware to handle such things.

[Steve_Stafford]

...I also think that setting up constraints is against architectural thinking.

Seems to me that everything in design is about constraints and dealing with them, like zoning restrictions, taste, money, materials etc.

There are many inherent relationships that Revit creates or observes. For the most part you have control over how much and when, for example, you don't have to align and lock your walls to grid lines.

Revit creates an opportunity to manage the design in a fresh way. It's up to you to decide how much.

You seem to be a hard sell...have you taken it out for a spin yet? You don't need a week or twelve hours or even five to get a good feel for it.

Consider this scenario from two weeks ago, after using Revit for 14 months, I find myself using Microstation to help wrap up a project that has been awaiting regulatory approval.

A decision is made to raise the bottom floor level of a stair tower. There are four building sections cutting through this little bugger, 9 column details, 4 wall sections, not to mention the stair and it's details. After fixing the first section, imagining myself still using Revit, I sighed and congratulated myself on wrapping that task up quick....except I was not even close to done.

So a week later the drafting exercise is done. Whereas I probably could have wrapped it up in one day had it been in Revit. Changing the model would have resulted in changes in every other view leaving me only the task of adusting notes and related 2D linework.

To satisfy your concerns you need to get your hands wrapped around the wheel and find a twisty road and goooo...like H**L. :D The Revit CD has some sample projects (or at least the ones I have do) that are "real" projects, I'll leave the Revit team to explain how real or the genesis of the documents. But they stand as viable construction documents.

[irwin]

The Revit projects I've seen so far did not convince me. When I dragged a wall it brought up a lot of messages and in the end it turned out that the change could not be done because of the established relationships could not be changed. This is what worries me. Are these projects from the Revit CD just bad examples? Do you at all use relationships between different objects in Revit? Or is this something that was implemented purely for marketing reasons and you try to avoid using them?

If you want to move a wall without maintaining the constraints, you can use the Move command with the Disjoin option checked. This will disconnect the wall from the rest of the building, removing all constraints to the wall, and then Move it. It will rejoin to other walls at the new position.

[jacob chavez]

At the autodesk revit site, in the gallery section, you will find a number of projects that seem to be actual projects. Some of them have an rvt file that you can download. It seems that I have done this and was able to check out some pretty big projects.

Try this link:

http://revit.autodesk.com/gallery/gallery.html

JC