Electrical-Architectural coordination

[damon.sidel]

Despite my many years using Revit, I have managed to be on many projects where consultants don't use Revit. Structure, yes. MEP, no.

The short question: what are the mechanics of coordinating electrical?

The slightly longer question/musing: The architectural model (our model), contains all the walls and ceilings in/on which the light fixtures, receptacles, exit signs, etc. are placed. For this project, we have a lighting consultant, so it gets even more circuitous. The lighting consultant did the lighting design as hand mark-ups of our RCPs. I then added all the lighting fixtures to our model and sent it to our electrical engineer. I got back PDFs of his sheets and a Revit model. OK, not bad, but... The Revit model has all the light fixtures I created, plus all the receptacles and exit signs, panels and equipment, none of the hosted stuff is hosted. Looking in 3d, everything is just floating in space.

How does the back-and-forth of coordination work from here on out? I've already redesigned some of my lighting design, adding and modifying fixtures.

To add to my confusion of work flow, the electrical engineer will only design in ACAD, so I reluctantly agreed to send him DWG backgrounds. He does his work, then sends it to a consultant to model in Revit. That's a huge waste of time and resources.

If I'm modeling light fixtures and my model has all the ceilings and walls, how should we organize the electrical model?

[tbodor]

These are all good questions. Your feeling some of my pain as I'm on the M&P side of things and I use Revit and most of our subs are still in ACAD. Good communication can help to ease some of this.

First off there are issues with items hosting to walls thru the link. Doesn't like to do it most of the time. If I have a wall hosted item I have to create a "dummy" wall on my end and hide it afterwards. I've had success with ceiling items though.

The other big issue when we can link items is once an item is placed, as long as the Archy doesn't delete the host, the items will follow. Ceilings move my air terminals move. If the item is deleted, unfortunately most of the time, your items un-host and float in no mans land. You have to go back and re-host them. This makes the coordination part kind of painful and leads us to use "face based" families instead of hosted ones.

I agree on your comment also that it is a waste of time and resources but that is the world we live in right now. That will change as more engineers start using Revit.

[david_peterson]

Most of the MEP guys I've been working with have made the switch to face based objects and not wall or ceiling hosted. At least that way they when a wall or ceiling gets deleted, the objects (and more importantly the circuits/systems) don't get deleted.
On the Arch side we've just bitten the bullet and said we're going to own the location of the fixtures and the MEP guys can copy monitor or create their own.

[damon.sidel]

If I have a wall hosted item I have to create a "dummy" wall on my end and hide it afterwards. I've had success with ceiling items though.
Yuck!


I agree on your comment also that it is a waste of time and resources but that is the world we live in right now.
Can you explain what you would want to happen in an ideal world?


On the Arch side we've just bitten the bullet and said we're going to own the location of the fixtures and the MEP guys can copy monitor or create their own.
Boo! What a waste of time and effort. The copy-monitor idea is at least a little interesting.

How did my consultant get ceiling and wall hosted families to hang around without walls or ceilings? Everything shows up un-hosted and nothing got deleted.

[david_peterson]

Face Based objects won't get deleted when the hosting face is removed.
You could also host them to a reference plane in theory.
My issue is I've never had a MEP group keep up with all the changes. If we don't place them, our ceilings never look coordinated. Most MEPs will place them correct the first time, but won't make minor adjustments when walls or ceilings make slight adjustments.
I've never gotten them to model things in the exact location where we want them.

[damon.sidel]

I've never gotten them to model things in the exact location where we want them.
All these responses so far are not painting a happy picture of the current state of affairs.

What about strategies that might work better?

[david_peterson]

If you get into a IPD project, things will work as they have to. The issue is most contracts I've seen state that the MEP drawings and models are for Design Intent Only. So the MEP groups only need to be able to prove that their design could work. They don't actually have to fully coordinate it to a "Clash Free" Level of Development. They only need to provide design intent. Many of the contractors don't need a model that shows where ever pipe is routed since they tend to want to re-route them anyway. Plus hangers and such aren't always considered in the design model as that gets to the "Means and Methods". Contracts seem to only want main runs and valve bank locations as those are usually prescribed by the owner to the design team.

Next you need to consider that projects on the construction side may be run differently. In the "First Come, First Serve" method, it's the last guy that has the hardest time placing his stuff. If you design a set of systems to be installed in only one order, the contractor may not want to follow that method.

Basically it boils down to this. At the end of the day, contractors never want to adjust or modify a design model from the Arch team or the Structural team, and the MEP models are used only as a guide. Since the outlet need to be placed on a stud (which generally aren't modeled by the design team) they will be in slightly different locations in the field anyway.
From an Arch stand point, if there's something you want in a specific location, it's easier for you to model it and dimension it and have the MEP teams play follow the leader. "If you build it, they will come" train of thought. In a perfect world, the MEP teams would update everything and make all of those small adjustments but that requires the Arch model to be locked down for a longer period of time (ie you can't move anything) which conflicts with the schedule.

[damon.sidel]

David, thank you for your thoughtful response.

It seems like I shouldn't be pushing for much more than I've received, then. When it comes to architectural modifications, such as adding, moving, or modifying light fixtures, I just do it in my model and send it to the electrical engineer to (hopefully) update. How they get there is their problem.

I will plan on that methodology for now. Thanks!

[david_peterson]

I did have one project where we were promised by the MEP group that we only needed to use place holders for and they would update their model so we could just show their fixtures.
With about 2 weeks to go before the deadline it became very apparent that we were in trouble. Nothing lined up, fixtures were in the ceiling, but cutting the grid. Nothing was coordinated. We had to go thru and replace all of our placeholders with the actual fixture and turn off all of the MEP services.
I knew it was going to happen, but it took this kind of a result to get our PMs to see the light. If you care about where it's placed, place it yourself and then just make sure you have the right quantity. I've got pages things we asked them to move and adjust that they said they were going to coordinate. It's been almost 18 mths, we're 9 mths into construction and I still can't cross anything off that list. Best expectation is that they get close with fixture location and they spend their time coordinating things above the ceiling so they actually fit. It's never good when you need to go back to the owner and tell them they're stuck with 7'-6" ceiling heights in a new facility.

[DNRodriguez]

I work inside of an A-E firm and we (Electrical) place all the lights. We are typically also required to run lighting calculations since we do many government projects and we use the ElumTools Add-In which forces us to properly place them in the model. Where you are working with outside consultants, it becomes even more critical to have a BIM Project Execution Plan (PxP). This would detail what your expectations are for what and how things are placed in the model and the PxP can be used as a contractual document that can be enforced. It would also detail how and when the model is exchanged between consultants so that everyone is on the same page as to when they are supposed to receive the latest model. A PxP is many times not used for small projects, but it really should be a part of every project.

[mhartmann]

sounds like you need a better MEP consultant... the biggest problem with elec vs arch, is the fixtures themselves. i (electrical) use my own lights (and turn the archie's off), because my families are set up to circuit, tag, and display properly, and have my visibility parameters for emergency hatching, etc. built in. most of mine are plain recessed or surface boxes or cylinders. i don't show the lenses, louvers, screw threads, that come with manufacturer downloaded families, they just bog down the model (all that info is available in the light fixture schedule by type). along with the fact that none of the electrical connectors are ever set up right, nor will all the fixtures schedule properly...
the battle is also in the ceiling itself. when the arch fixture cuts a hole (2x4 or downlight circle) in the ceiling, my fixture can't host to the face anymore, because it's been cut out. so they get left orphaned in place when the ceiling height changes. the ultimate workflow would be that the architect would copy/monitor the engineers light fixtures, which by being in their model, would cut the ceiling surfaces (for gyp patterns, etc.) but for me as the engineer to be able to face host to that ceiling (without holes cut in it).
the way we see it is... you spec it, you model it. i don't want my archie telling me lighting spacings as much as they don't want my opinion of whether a wall should shift a few inches or not...
personally, i'm very ocd, as far as hosting to ceiling faces and snapping to grids, and making sure fire alarm devices, occ sensors, air terminals and such are each on their own tile.
hth,
mike

[david_peterson]

Hi Mike,
I love that idea. My problem is our ceilings are never set until after they are installed. If we still have a chance to make something better we take it. When we do that our MEP guys generally can't keep up. Plus it's not cost effective for them to move lights 1/2" when the grid shifts.
While yes, the Electrical guy is in charge of the Spec, Qty and proximity placement, Arch generally is in charge of dimensional placement. So it's kind of like a cat chasing it's tail in my opinion.
For us we've used a "Coordination Box" which is nothing more than a face based object with a masking region and a symbolic line. So we don't always cut holes in the ceilings. At least it was done that way on some projects. More often than not, we are not placing the actual fixture with clearance zones to help with the coordination process. When clashing, our light fixtures are on, and the electrical ones are off.
I would love to never place lights, switches, outlets, data ports, phone jacks....... but I've never had it work out. Fast Tracked large projects don't seem to allow for it. And with IPD, our MEP guys seem to just be doing the base line, design intent and the MEP Subs are doing the actual modeling. In which case we need to show them where we want things placed before they can place them. If the Electrical guys were just placing things where they wanted, they would have to redo a ton of work when we tell them it all needs to change.
Electrical may own the spec and the qty, the Architect still owns the design (ie placement)
Just my 2 cents.

[damon.sidel]

Thanks for the continued good discussion! This is very elucidating.


sounds like you need a better MEP consultant.
Yes, that is probably true.


i (electrical) use my own lights (and turn the archie's off), because my families are set up to circuit, tag, and display properly, and have my visibility parameters for emergency hatching, etc. built in.... along with the fact that none of the electrical connectors are ever set up right, nor will all the fixtures schedule properly.
This is definitely something I struggle with. We all know that the OOTB families are lacking. It also is wide stated that manufacturer's content in bloated. I really wish more users made packages of content available freely. For example, it sounds like you have a library of light fixtures that work really well. I bet they would work for a lot of architects, too. Imagine if the architect you were working with used your light fixtures when they did the lighting design?! Would that be great?


the ultimate workflow would be that the architect would copy/monitor the engineers light fixtures, which by being in their model, would cut the ceiling surfaces (for gyp patterns, etc.) but for me as the engineer to be able to face host to that ceiling (without holes cut in it).
I have to agree a bit with David that the Architect will own the design/placement of the light fixtures, so I think it will be just as likely that you, the electrical engineer, would copy/monitor the architect's fixtures. Again, back to my comment about everybody using the same families. Perhaps on your projects, you'd consider giving the architect a package of families for their use at the very beginning.


Electrical may own the spec and the qty, the Architect still owns the design (ie placement).

[david_peterson]

Option "B" with the copy monitor thought.
You can map the copied elements to your own families.
It's an option.

[abrang70707157]

Hi
I see some interior render or image like this (104275)that they don't use any lamp but their render is light. How do they render ??? or what lamp do they use ???
I use full of lamp in my project but it is dim and my render is very ugly. why ??? I have very problem with interior render, it's very hard.:(

[damon.sidel]

Hi abrang,

First, I would humbly recommend that when you ask a new question, you put it in a new post. This thread is all about electrical-architectural coordination, not rendering.

Second, I would recommend that if you want to learn about rendering, that you visit one of the many forums about rendering. Not that people don't discuss rendering here with respect to Revit, but there is so much knowledge out there about rendering and rendering techniques, I think you'll find more information elsewhere. Although Revit's rendering has improved, I would take a look at exporting to 3ds and using either the Mental Ray, V-Ray, or another render engine within 3ds. Search for a Revit-to-3ds rendering tutorial and I think you'll have more luck.

Good luck!