Training advice needed.

[cosmickingpin]

I am currently leading our Revit training here at the office I work at. I have been at it for about 4 months now and I seem to be making little progress in terms of retained knowledge.
not that these folks are lazy, but I have found it necessary to become more and more formal in the training sessions. At first I was very relaxed and we would all go through features together, everybody smiles, and seems to nod their heads, but there seemed to be 0% in retained knowledge. I have found it necessary to distribute training binders (that each team member must store all distributed information) give quizzes and homework assignments to demonstrate that this material is in fact covered, and to put the burden on the team members to take more active role in training.
I am now the most unpopular person in the office, but this is not how I would like it. if I ruled the world Revit training would involve dancing and imported beer, but it ain't working out like that. If I left it up to them to learn the software a their pace (and believe me this has been going on in this office for a couple years now before I got here), nothing would ever happen. Management has been totally supportive and really share my frustrations. No complaints there, and not just because they monitor all internet activity;)
Anybody else have this problem, I could really use some advice.

[mlgatzke]

You probably won't like this suggestion, bbbuuuut, I'd suggest bringing in professional trainers. Your employers appear sympathetic, but there's no motivation for your coworkers to remember what they've learned - you're going to be right there if they have any questions - and the partners know this. I think that the partners would issue motivation to your coworkers if the firm had to "pay" a trainer to come in. This way, their wallets are affected - that can tend to be a REAL motivator. Also, you won't be the "bad guy" of the office. Simply tell the partners, "I must not be teaching the application correctly. I think we may need to bring in professional trainers. I could work with them through some initial training sessions and learn what I'm doing wrong. Meanwhile, our staff could be learning from seasoned professional trainers." Then, contact Autodesk Revit Implementation (Phil and Hunter) to come in and design your firm's implementation scheme.

This way, the staff would be well motivated, you could get trained-to-train, you wouldn't be the "bad guy", and you might gain a little value in the eyes of the partners and associates.

Just my opinion.

[cosmickingpin]

Before I joined the firm, they already had paid trainers come in and teach the application, and nobody seemed to be able to get anything from that either. It really isn't cheap, and from what I hear the "training sessions were basic demonstartions, not tailored to the specfic needs of this firm. I have 9 people I am having weekly sessions for 1 1/2 hours. Really we haven't even gotten to Revit, I am still teaching basic mass modeling. The last month and a half I am focused on just that, and am hoping to use that to get them decent as 3d modelers. I think that kinda has to come first, even before a "trainer" can even come in and teach Revit. 2 out of the nine have past 3d modeling experience, the rest have spent years, hell decades, as 2d drafters.
I think that makes sense; the 2 who had 3d modeling experience are great, and even execute projects in Revit now (up to schematic drawings and presentations) but because the rest of the office have never modeled in their lives, we then have to convert our revit file to 2d cad to continue progress with a larger team. Honestly I think the 7 who have never modeled don't really want to switch to Revit, and are happy in their 2d worlds and don't want to change. That seems a barrier no paid trainer could be expected to overcome, let alone precieve. There is a small element of them not perfroming to delay Revit production, so far it has worked for a few years now. The "homework and quizes" is the only way I can come up with to eliminate this, so far it is yeilding results. They are taking notes and following me in my demonstrations better now, but the way I see it, at this pace we are a good nine months to a year away from having developed preliminary Revit skills. I figure 2 months more of mass modeling, applying building elements to mass object, then we can switch to Revit production.
We all work hard and sometimes the weekly training sesion have to get skipped for a few weeks in a row (we all know how deadlines can be). That is hard, but I think by scaling back my expectations, and starting with mass modeling basics, I am starting to make some progress. But it remains frustrating, and the results are still a ways off from my point of view.
We can't stop production for a week to Revit bigtime. I have gotten permission to promise some plane tickets to AU next year, but even that seems to cause the wax to drip; these guys are mid level drafters, can you teach an old dog new tricks?

[Steve_Stafford]

Forgive me but I think, from your description, that you are heading down a path toward more frustration. What are you users saying to you about your approach? More importantly what are they not telling you? Find out...

So much time on massing (you do mean massing in Revit?) isn't time well spent. Revit was designed to let you create meaningful documents in minutes so to speak. I recall being told that the point of the "Getting Started With Revit" tutorial is to have you do some meaningful relevant work in less than 15 minutes.

If you spend two months on a feature that is useful for a small percentage of your project types then you're creating a situation where your users are going to think that it will be impossible to use Revit or that you are "holding them back". By small percentage I mean that for a lot of building types massing isn't really "necessary". It is just as easy to block out a bldg using walls and roofs as to use massing tools.

FWIW, we don't focus on the massing tools until much later than the basics. We could do ten projects in a row and never need the massing features...I realize every firm is different but this is my honest reaction to your info.

[Wes Macaulay]

Interesting thread. We have some firms in town here whose principals want - no, they have decreed - that the firm is switching to Revit. And two people in the firm have :mrgreen:

We have other firms where the whole company has been to training classes - customised to their needs, we even used DWGs from an upcoming project to work on - and you go in there and everyone except four or five people are on AutoCAD.

The people have to decide that they are going to pick up the ball. And if they are old dogs, then they must have positive reinforcement towards Revit, and negative reinforcement towards old methods. It's a little tragic to have to resort to Good Dog / Bad Dog tactics, but it sounds like that's what you need. The principals of the firm have to provide and enforce these tactics. People need to understand that a change like Revit is where the industry is headed. Learning new software is a challenge, and often a frustration, but having obsolete skills is hardly a happy alternative.

[Joef]

I always find it hard to believe that someone who is actually getting free training at the place they work wouldn't gobble it up like mad. As a drafter designer, architect, whatever, your assets are between your ears. If someone is willing to increase your assets, you gotta jump at it. Besides, once you learn Revit you don't have to work so hard. AutoCAD is so much work!.

Joe

[SCShell]

Hey there,

I can hear the frustration in your posts. I think Steve S. is on track with his comments (as always).
I would add the following "thoughts" on this subject.

Revit's strongest point is that it understands Architecture and the building construction process thanks to it's developers. Revit's weakest point is the user. I have found that my own lack of "Revit knowledge" is my own worst enemy! Most of my early frustrations were resolved as I became more and more familiar with the program and it's basic tools and operations. Everything seemed to get better when I learned how to "accept" how Revit wants to do things rather than forcing it to do things my old way. (My mother's favorite quote, "It's not that I have what I like, it's that I like what I have.")

I believe that one of the biggest problems people have learning Revit is that it requires the individual to have a basic understanding of buildings and the construction process. This is not the case with a lot of people who are actually doing the drafting. (Even with some "young" Architects!) If you go back and read a lot of the posts on the threads, you will see a common response from the pro's, "Just do it in Revit as you would in the field. Problem is, many don't know what that is".

In addition, one has to really want to learn how to use this program. I can imagine that there are a lot of drafting and support staff who really don't want to learn Revit and get the full benefit of this kind of software, unlike those of us here! They went to school to learn CAD in order to make a living drafting. People who love Revit tend to be Architects or design professionals who want to produce better projects and have a good sense of how much time they are saving, how much better the project is and how easy it is to do the work.

Those are my thoughts, for what that is worth on a Saturday morning after a gig.
Good luck with your training efforts and I really do hope that it works for you.
Steve

[Cathy Hadley]

Ahhh a topic near and dear to my heart. How to motivate the masses.

There are times when I am totally at my wits end, how can THIS software not excite you? I spoke with someone from the factory once about this ... and he was like... let it go... some people just can't see it.

But that doesn't solve your issues... I am in a similar boat, only I am supposed to be a professional trainer. I am with Steve on the get something really kewl... out really fast. Then come back with the nuts and bolts. Also I might try... taking a whole day or maybe a half day.. once a week, an hour or so doesn't really scream commitment to wanting to get people on board.

I think my biggest culprit is this... *management* says... we want everyone on revit NOW... yet the schedules that their people are asked to meet are such that just the idea of trying something new AND meeting an unreasonable deadline simultaneously is just overwhelming. (not that it can't be done with Revit at all,, its more the scary idea that they don't know it well enough yet and don't have the confidence that THEY can make it happen) Even if they do believe it would make their life easier in the long run... its the short run that seems the biggest hurdle.

Just my .02

CZH

[Roger Evans]

Hi
Given the somewhat entrenched attitude & the way you feel you are being labeled seems that this makes for a huge mountain to climb ~ consider going around it

I would make Revit "Aspirational" within your organisation ~ Create an aura of exclusivity with an "A Team" of top people possibly as the Design Development Team knocking out the best designs your outfit has ever produced & leave the door open for others to join in
I reckon you could kick it off with 3 committed people

[Wes Macaulay]

That's a good idea, Roger. We've seen many firms where the principals are wondering why their staff aren't taking up the software more readily or with more enthusiasm. This idea could go a long way to rectifying that.

[The Sweg]

In my experience, laying down the gauntlet is the best training. Pick a date to start using Revit as the only software in your firm and when that date comes, switch! You're either on board or you're hosed. We set a realistic date and I set up our template with all the typical families so it was pretty much idiot-proof. When you are forced to use something everyday, exclusively--you end up learning it (or switching careers).:)


Sometimes, you just gotta use 'tough love'.:wink:

[JamesVan]

Cosmic,

Are your teams using Revit on actual projects after training? With any training I've administered to my staff, I find that immediate usage is an imperative to successful retention. We have many staff in my office that want to learn Revit, but I will not give a class unless another project is starting up. My class is a 2-day class (compressed down from the typical 5 day version) that covers the interface, modeling basics, families and drafting. Then, as teams require knowledge of more complex tools such as stairs, I provide "just-in-time" sessions to get them started.

I hope this helps and I wish you luck in your endeavors.

[mlgatzke]

Roger, I love the "aspirational" aspect. I think that's a great idea. However Cosmic, keep in mind that some people strive for mediocrity and won't be motivated. Perhaps this would be a good "litmus test" for your firm's principles regarding who stays and who doesn't. After all, using Revit, you'll be able to do more work with fewer people . . .

Maybe, after your "A-Team" produces better documents, that are more accurate and have fewer errors than any of your other teams, in a shorter period of time, everyone will feel the pressure.

[jamesd10181097]

I am rather new to Revit myself (nearly three months) and I am already being put into a similar situation. We have 4 people working with revit now, their needs are very different since two are designers and two are more technical project architects. I seem to be picking it up faster, so i am being placed in the training position. Nearly all of us went to a three day training seminar, which was a good introdustion. But whoever stated it before was right, unless you start using it right away you lose everything you learned.

So far our approach has been more of introducing everyone to what the program is capable of, then as the situations present themselves, they need to be reminded how to do it. That is when they really learn it, and sometimes they need to do it a few times before it really sinks in, especially when the most difficult things to learn in revit are the concepts behind how to do something. Once they understand the concept all the peices fall into place. This can be more of a trial by fire, because they are trying to meet deadlines at the same time as learning but that is the motivator, the need to accomplish.

After setting up 3 different CAD systems at 4 different firms the only way that I have found to teach anybody anything is through patient explaination of concepts over and over again.

This approach can be difficult and frustrating, since it does require alot of hands on, one- on- one time.

[sjsl]

We have trained one group of four to date and another six will start this week.

We are a departmentalized company and as such have made the intial decision to train only the design department. Once this group goes, we will be introducing the cd dept. to Revit in the next group.

Admin. does not want anyone using revit on a live project until 1/2 of the design dept. is familiar with the program. Despite this adminssion, I have covertly told people to use a live project anyways, which they have, for the most part and have had nothing but positive things said about their work from higher ups.

Our training is rather drawn out, 1-1/2 hrs of class a week, over 8 weeks, which reviews two chapters. They have the company approved 1-1/2 hrs to do the tutorials. Unfortunately for some, this slow process is very frustrating, hence, let those that are highly motivated to use Revit use it on a live project.

I have been using Revit fro about two years in the office before one of the partners saw the light of day. since then I have wandering around the office constantly talking up Revit to all of those that will listen. So far a lot of people can't wait to ge their hands on it. The only ones that are not really interested are the "draftsmen". We too have found much more desire between architects and architects in training.

[info2]

Free Video Traing available at www.dgcad.com Total 11 Free lessons on Revit. This will be a give good start for those who are new to Revit. After going thru Video tutorials, just do all Autocad provided Tutorial to get a grip on REVIT. I am sure this Video will help your team better understand Revit. ....R Nair

[Roger Evans]

Thanks for that

Could I make a suggestion for a Sticky here ~ (or at least make these sort of links very easy to find ie Revit Links) ~ with Individual links to Revit Tutorials be listed & allowing for user score feedback to each tutorial ~ This may eventually help the Factory & other future writers develop the best training methods based on most popular methods / subjects

[Scott D Davis]

They are good videos, but be aware they are in Revit 5.1, so there have been some changes.

[belinda.66428]

We are only a small office and we started using REVIT 4.5. I was in control of setting up and building the family library for the first few months and was the first to introduce it into the office. Like most of us I loved it. I could see the potential and the ease of the program. I set up all standard office templates as I went along and committed myself to using the program. This made others in the office notice the ease in creating the drawings and allowed me to introduce it into the office . We started off with the designers which then meant that, that drawing would have to commence through the office in REVIT. It was a hard process and involved a lot of questions but after six months and numerous meetings of updated libraries etc we are there. I have now introduced an in house REVIT competition which includes three REVIT questions a week. These are based on areas they haven't touched on or don't particularly use. By using this process it has encouraged people to look for the answer and normally as doing so it creates a larger depth of knowledge. A lot of them now know how to go about figuring the answer out rather than asking and are enthused by being able to achieve this on their own. Making it a competition for an unknown prize at the end of the year keeps them enthusiastic and up to date with the office standard. Yahoo we did it! Including those in the office that didn't come on board until REVIT 5.1 because they didn't like change, now realise what they were missing out on.

[Phil Read]

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

~Upton Sinclair

[roy.70844]

Hello Cosmic,

Man, I feel your pain!
Every course I deliver is different from the last. Each covers the core subjects (UI,Walls windows doors etc etc) but each in a slightly different way. I can't remember which of the previous posts said what, but here are some of the things that have worked for me.

1) Good stuff quick : use all the standard walls, windows, doors, floors, roofs. Make a building from scratch on day 1 (you may need to leave out stairs or limit to straight run).
Enjoy the 'WOW' factor from the automatic elevations, sections, 3D etc
2) follow up with annotations, dimension entire walls with openings. Set up some sheets and lay out some plots (Watch the Autocad users weep at the lack of modelspace/paperspace and all it's headaches)
3) Next get into the nitty gritty : Make your own wall floor and roof types. Take control of the exact appearance of things (linetypes, lineweights, fill patterns). Temper the tedium with some cool curtain walls and sloped glazing.

Eventually get into family creation

In short, start wide in breadth but shallow in depth, then go deeper!

Here's a quote you don't want to hear, I got it from a local authority architect!
"You can talk until you are blue in the face but you will NEVER convince me that Revit is better than [Autocad] LT "
I just smiled and took his money! Trust me, he'll be back!
Roy

[kjohnston341914]

In reviewing this thread I would just simply suggest a real or mock real project based approach. This is what the students must do when they go back to their desks. Let them have input on design if it is mock. Make sure at the end of the first day you have made a few sheet files so that the entire process has been touched on. This means you need at least one section or detail page so the coordination can be appreciated. Books are great resources for the information hungry participants but only slow down the learning when qualified instructors are leading the class. Send them home with the book. Revit is so friendly there is no reason to be afraid of unsolvable issues.

I wouldn't suggest this with my AutoCAD based products, the unsolvable issues will get you every time so I stick with a book, but with Revit Introduce the interface, and dive in just like you have to do when the class is over. This approach has been very successful for approximately 100 trained users and growing quickly.

[Roger Evans]

Any Update Feedback on this problem / solution ??

[gbrowne]

This is a great thread.

I have found that people who are "not interested" are really, in fact just scared of looking stupid in front of people. Especially architects in front of techies... Shame really..

And its also fun to learn, or at least I think so..

[Max Lloyd]

Its been interesting reading this thread as I am about to give a training class to my new boss!

[Max Lloyd]

phew! Just talked him out of it.....better to stick to the scribbles and scrawls for now!

[cosmickingpin]

Revit training and implementation update.
Sorry it took so long, this thread kinda fell under my radar, I have been very busy lately (and not just arguing with FK about God), I didn't realize it had struck such a chord with so many. I do want to thank everyone for their responses, many were helpful and many just made me feel better and not so alone.
Well in our office I have managed to be extremely successful in using Revit on Projects up to the DD phase, and have managed to overcome the stigma that Revit is either too hard to use or slows down production. I am hoping for move forward with CD's on a particular project and have focused training on drafting and detailing in Revit. Those reluctant 2d people are slowly being forced out of their present positions by the success of Revit thus far. Normal employee turnover have been to our benefit in that some of the most anti Revit folks have moved on for unrelated reasons. So the incoming employees have been brought in to take over working on projects in the early schematic phases, and allowing me to focus on using Revit in the later phases. This has been the biggest break through. If people do not want to step up to the plate, it is amazing what one new ambitious employee can do to shake things up and break the passive aggressive resistance that seems to collectively settle in.
Outside training sources were used extensively prior to my joining the company and the impression I get is that their services cost too much and accomplish too little, some of that is the employees fault but not all.
It has been frustrating, and I suspended training for a short period as I could not get anyone to complete any extra modeling assignments. Some People do seem content to just sit at their desks doing each new day doing the exact same thing they did yesterday in the same way. Really it comes down to building a firm with motivated and innovative people. People dedicated to improving their skill set at every opportunity, these are my kind of people, and this is how I think all architecture personnel should be, and I have little patience for people who are afraid of looking stupid, we're all stupid, hell I knew nothing about Revit a few years ago and if I had given in to being afraid of looking stupid I still wouldn't.
In short, bringing in new people, not many, just one or two, really seems to have shaken things up, the success I have manged to demonstrate with every Revit project undertaken, has proved that the problem is not the software.
I do end up making a lot of my own training material, that takes a lot of time, but the material out there is not geared to 1-2 hour training sessions, and do not seem to give enough "holistic" information, everything seems focused on the mechanics of Revit and there is no focus on a conceptual understanding or advice ("look out for this Revit Gremlin").
The struggle is ongoing but I think we have managed to set and meet goals. That is important, having a roadmap and sticking to it. I am excited to be bringing an Entourage to AU2005. That we have committed to internally. At this point our goal is to get the majority of our staff to a point where they can actually benefit from that experience. When can we sign up BTW?


Any Update Feedback on this problem / solution ??

[Merlin]

One thing when training anyone is..............

to ask youself what was it that got YOUR enthusiasm going!

I'm not saying that this is the answer straight off, but in your average high scool classroom, the best teachers start with getting across their own enthusiasm and why!
NEXT is to identify what is it that would be THE thing that would excite this particular individual and then the next, etc. It becomes then a case of identifying each individuals "excitement factor".

You'll notice that the theme to this is the passion / enthusiasm / excitement for each person; these feelings evoke high motivation.

Remember back to your own introduction to REVIT? Were you enthused?.... passionate?.... excited?.... Well I was! .... and that just motivated me to learn as much ASAP! ....So I'm basically self-taught just by going through the on-line tutorials (and asking the odd dumb qustion in here).....BUT that was because I saw something tangible.... I saw possibilities for my own work and my future...

To sum up I suppose each person has different reasons to be excited about something like this.....find it and you'll find that will drive their own learning as opposed to the "spoon-fed" style.

Teaching is easiest when the student WANTS to learn.

John Mc

[cadclips81126]

Go to http://www.dgcad.com/Revit8.htm for all new REVIT 8 Training Videos.

The latest 7 videos are on 'Worksets and Phasing'

Lesson 1: Introduction and Interface
Lesson 2: Basic Floor Plans Walls, Doors and Windows
Lesson 3: Levels and Reference Planes
Lesson 4: Grids and Help
Lesson 5a: Structural, Foundations, Walls, Columns, Beams, Joists and Braces
Lesson 5b: Structural, Foundations, Walls, Columns, Beams, Joists and Braces
Lesson 6: Views, Floor Plans, Ceiling Plans, Sections, Elevations, Callouts, Plan Regions
Lesson 7: Visibility Graphics and View Properties
Lesson 8: Components and Groups
Lesson 9: Floors and Floor Structure
Lesson 10: Walls and Wall Structure
Lesson 11: Sheets and Title Blocks
Lesson 12: Creating Custom Title Blocks
Lesson 13: Text and Dimensions
Lesson 14: Transfer Project Standards, Printing and Wall Profiles
Lesson 15: Worksets Overview
Lesson 16: Worksets Setup
Lesson 17: Worksets User1
Lesson 18: Worksets Multiple Users
Lesson 19: Phasing – General
Lesson 20: Phase Filtering
Lesson 21: Phasing – Tags Annotations and Infills

[k.armstrong]

Cosmic - glad to see things are coming along -

One comment i would make and i think it might be said elsewhere

I would think the old 2d dogs would be much more enthused by some of the more basic concepts of revit, rather than massing etc.

get them drawing walls, placing doors, windows etc make duplicates and add text etc - go to the original and move something - then switch to the duplicate and show them that they don't have to go and move another line/update hatches etc - remember they are used to drawing lines and hatches etc and gettign them right in every drawing - show them the basic powers in revit

move a window in a floor plan with the elevation open next to it - show them they don't have to go and edit the elevation, revit does it for them - they'll get excited about it then. I remember getting so damn excited about ADT when moving doors in a wall, and the wall healed and updated hatching etc - remember back to 2d autocad 2000 draw 2 lines for a wall, insert door block, hatch. Door gets moved, stretch - erase hatch cause it didn't update correctly rehatch. AND don't get me started on the whole draw order/hatch issue that came about.

Ken

[cosmickingpin]

Thanks for your encouragement, I appreciate that I am not nearly alone in these struggles. Actually the charm and wit of area plans have really won people over recently and I think that will be the focus. a few people have continued to drag the others down and are not invited to further training sessions. They are thick enough to think this is a good thing, when really they are soon to be unemployed- I have done everything I can and it was not my call. So area plans and scheduling them in various complicated and useful ways have been the focus that last few weeks here and it is going well. The official word is and ALL new design work will be done in Revit and if you do not have the skill set, you are not on the team, formal training has ended and instead a few have been assigned as revit apprectices and all new production work is done by us, and as existing cad jobs are completed, unwilling personel will be replaced by motivated professionals. That is the word I heard. Sounds harsh, but so be it. There are lots of 2d firms out there looking to hire content luddites, who play solitare on their computers at lunch.





Cosmic - glad to see things are coming along -

One comment i would make and i think it might be said elsewhere

I would think the old 2d dogs would be much more enthused by some of the more basic concepts of revit, rather than massing etc.

get them drawing walls, placing doors, windows etc make duplicates and add text etc - go to the original and move something - then switch to the duplicate and show them that they don't have to go and move another line/update hatches etc - remember they are used to drawing lines and hatches etc and gettign them right in every drawing - show them the basic powers in revit

move a window in a floor plan with the elevation open next to it - show them they don't have to go and edit the elevation, revit does it for them - they'll get excited about it then. I remember getting so damn excited about ADT when moving doors in a wall, and the wall healed and updated hatching etc - remember back to 2d autocad 2000 draw 2 lines for a wall, insert door block, hatch. Door gets moved, stretch - erase hatch cause it didn't update correctly rehatch. AND don't get me started on the whole draw order/hatch issue that came about.

Ken