Placing Profiles

[peterdew]

Happy New Year, Everyone

I would like some help in placing Revit-LT Profiles > Framing > Steel > C-Angles, please.
I have loaded C-Channel-Profile.rfa as copy attached into a project but can't create an instance nor place it in the model.
I have read the Revit Help without success.
Does anyone have the time to tell me how, please ?

Thank you and regards
Peter

[Steve_Stafford]

The profile families are provided to permit people to create families that are based on the same profiles that structural families use. If you need to place a steel channel then you want either column, beam or bracing and to load a related family for the correct shape and size. You can use the Profile family on its own for a stair support or railing for a couple examples...as well as to create forms in the family editor.

[peterdew]

Thank you. Placing it as a Railing seems to work ok, but why not alone ?

[dkoch]

The profile family is just that, a profile describing the cross-sectional shape of a C channel shape. It is not a 3D element. If you want to place a 3D element, use a Structural Column or Structural Framing family, which, as Steve mentioned, are based on the Profile families.


For the US Metric content, these families are found in these folders, in the default installation:
C:\ProgramData\Autodesk\RVT 2018\Libraries\US Metric\Structural Columns\Steel\AISC 14.1
C:\ProgramData\Autodesk\RVT 2018\Libraries\US Metric\Structural Framing\Steel\AISC 14.1


For steel channels, the families are M_C Shapes-Column.rfa and M_C Shapes.rfa.


The folder names and, possibly, family names will vary for content for other locations, but should be found under the Libraries folder.

[peterdew]

Thanks again, David,

but why is that, please, or perhaps more importantly, why aren't there 3D element versions of angles as well ?
They are a perfectly normal piece of steel to buy, aren't they: in fact, they are probably the most common ?
Or are you saying that 3D element families are available as M_C Shapes-Column.rfa and M_C Shapes.rfa ?
I will look into them later.

regards
Peter

[dkoch]

Thanks again, David,

but why is that, please, or perhaps more importantly, why aren't there 3D element versions of angles as well ?
They are a perfectly normal piece of steel to buy, aren't they: in fact, they are probably the most common ?
Or are you saying that 3D element families are available as M_C Shapes-Column.rfa and M_C Shapes.rfa ?
I will look into them later.

regards
Peter

Exactly; those are the 3D families. For vertical elements acting as columns, use the column family. For other framing, use the other family.

As Steve mentioned, the profile families are provided so that if you need that same section in other situations, you can use them as the basis for extrusions in those situations.

[peterdew]

Thankyou again, David,

I have that folder but how can I know what Shape they are without downloading and opening them all, only to have to change their name so that I can find them again, please ? Obviously enough, I have tried a few without success.

I decided to go back to the Microsoft PC Search and found M_C Shapes.rfa, but not M_C Shapes-Column.rfa.

I opened and edited M_C Shapes-Section.rfa and saved it with a new name (adding a suffix as M_C Shapes-Section-PDA.rfa) and loaded it into a project, but when I went to Families to create an instance, I couldn't find it. I wondered if it only shows in Section Views, but tried again and still couldn't find it.

regards
Peter

[Steve_Stafford]

Revit expects you to use:

Structural Columns category = vertical structural elements - found in Structural Columns content folder (separated by materials)
Structural Framing category = horizontal (and/or sloped beams/bracing) - found in Structural Framing content folder (separated by materials)

If you work on the Structural ribbon tab you'll find buttons dedicated to Beams, Columns and Bracing...among others. Beams will require Structural Framing families and Columns will require Structural Column families.

The naming of the families in each folder tells you what shape they are based on.

[peterdew]

Hello, Steve;

having searched all the categories under the Structure tab, and the Families again, perhaps you could tell me where my M_C Shapes-Section-PDA went in my project, so that I could find it to place an instance ?
There is no family named Channel or Angle Sections in any of of the families that I can see, so in case I have missed them, would you send me a screenshot, please ?

thankyou
Peter

[Steve_Stafford]

The library structure and content supplied with Revit varies a bit from version to version (Imperial, Metric and specific language versions). The name you provide is not a stock family. In the Project Browser under Families you'll find a category for each kind of family that is loaded into your project. Assuming the family you've loaded is structural then it should be found under Structural Columns or Structural Framing (assuming column or beam). The attached images are of the stock imperial folder structure and the result of loading stock families for columns and beams into a stock template.

Image Left: Content Folders
Image Center: Structural Columns
Image Right: Project Browser with "L" families loaded (just a couple sizes/types)

Keep in mind that many structural families use a Type Catalog, a separate .txt file that defines all of the sizes the family can represent. When we load those families the type catalog will open before the family is completely loaded. We have to choose the sizes we really want in the project and then Revit will load just those sizes from the catalog. As such it is possible that the family you are trying to use is missing its Type Catalog and when you load it you're only getting a default type (whatever sizes/dimensions that were stored in the family during its creation).

[peterdew]

thanks again, Steve;

that is probably the issue; I have Content 03.jpg but neither of the other two.
Should I download something else to the Libraries, please, and if so, where from ?

regards
Peter

[Steve_Stafford]

Each project has to load content if it isn't already in the template. The stock Autodesk Templates don't have much loaded. If you have the folders in the Content 03 you should have the files listed in Content 02. When you open the Structural Columns or Structural Framing folders using Windows Explorer what do you find? If the folders are empty then your content was not installed.

If you have an EyeTee department they may have stored the files elsewhere to share them with everyone. If you are the EyeTee department then you might not have installed everything. Visit THIS TOPIC (https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/revit-products/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Revit-Templates-and-families-not-installed.html) if your folder is empty.

If you have files in the folder then you need to load them into your project. You do that on the Insert Ribbon > Load from Library panel > Load Family button. Browse to the folder with your content and select a file. Click open and then choose the size/types you want if a type catalog appears. Once you've done that you should find a family you can place in the model.

If you're familiar with AutoCAD it is not dissimilar to loading a block into a drawing. To place a block it has to be loaded first.

[peterdew]

Thanks again, Steve;

I will try that tomorrow, but I am not familiar with AutoCAD, except for making patterns using text files.
I moved to Revit from ProReflex where all Libraries are loaded into every project, and the default object type is editable into every other;
ie C Channel Default can be edited to any size C Channel, etc.

regards
Peter

[Steve_Stafford]

Revit's templates are not optimized for everyone. The expectation is that an architect will configure their project template different than a structural engineer. As such each will have a different collection of content requirements. I see no reason why they couldn't load at least a few types of every structural shape other than deciding to do it. For each customer that would be pleased they did there would be a number who complain they never use MC channels and resent deleting them... :(

Have you seen this Wikipedia entry on Reflex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex_(building_design_software)) and its very slight relationship to Revit?

[peterdew]

Hello, Steve;

my understanding of how ProReflex worked was that all the model did was link to the libraries, so if you didn't try to use the Structural Sections, you wouldn't even see them. However, if you were sure you didn't want Structure and MEP, you wouldn't load the reference file, but Architects use all the Structural and MEP objects required for a building, so at least having the editable default allowed you to use them without searching too hard for specific configurations, which could easily be an editable option if you happened to know it. Having thousands of files and options to select between was always the difficulty with both ArchiCAD and AutoCAD, so it's a pity to see Revit going the same way.

Anyway, back to the solution, your link suggests that I should uninstall the existing Revit Libraries and reload them. Will that lose all the refinements I have made, please, or will those have been saved under each project separately ? I would have preferred to merge the existing libraries with the new so that I keep as much as possible. Also the link refers to Revit alone, whereas I have Revit-LT.

thankyou
Peter

[Steve_Stafford]

We load a family and types, that's a definition of the family. We can place 1 or 1,000 instances of a family type but they all reference the definition of the type, a one to many database record/relationship. Let's say I want to have three W shape steel beam sizes. There are hundreds defined in the family's type catalog but I can just load the three I really need. A Revit project doesn't have thousand of files, there is just one project file typically, per discipline but that has as much to do with how businesses are organized as anything to do with Revit. A Revit model could contain all the disciplines work ... or not.

There are many thousands of families (like a block or Sketch Up Component) (some from Autodesk and many others from other users/providers) which represent discreet elements that are part of a building and what is required to created a model and derive a set of documents from it. Only the families the project actually needs truly need to be loaded into the project however.

If your content folders are actually empty then you'll need to install them to get the content you're missing. I don't recommend storing our own families in the same folders with the stock content because each release has its own content and I don't want to have to figure out how to identify my own when something like you're dealing with happens.

Revit LT content is mostly the same as for Revit but some of the content related to features that it (LT) doesn't include is excluded. No harm if you end up with some of that content in the process though.

[peterdew]

Sorry to bother you again,

but I can't find a Section Line and tags on a Plan where I can see 2 others, and the 3rd appears on the Drawing Sheet as it should.
I have tried finding hidden elements, un-cropping and resetting views and view depths to unlimited, all without success.
Is there a recommended way of finding them, please ?

I also tried to start this as a new thread, again without success, a bad day all round.

Thankyou and regards
Peter