Laptop for Revit - Any recommendations

[christo4robin]

I'm looking at getting a new laptop. I'm thinking of the Dell 9300 or XPS, and wondering if anyone out there has strong feelings for machines y'all are already using.

Thanks!

[jamesd10181097]

I am using a HP compaq nx9500. It is great because it has the processing speed of a desktop and the screen is almost the same size too

17" widescreen monitor
3.4GHz processor
1 Gig of RAM
128 MG video card
100Gig HD
DVD burner
media card reader
harman/kardon speaker system

I have been very satisfied with this machine. We are looking into getting anotherone similar to this, for some reason now the number is nx9600 i believe the quote we just got was for $2,300

[jamesd10181097]

I did forget to mention that it is a monster of a laptop though. It is large and somewhat heavy. for my purposes it works great. But if you were expecting to use it on planes or in airports it is a bit unwieldy. I use it at my desk in the office and take it home often. When I go to occational client meetings it is not bad, I don't need true mobility.

If I did travel more I would want a smaller machine.

[Wes Macaulay]

Well, I've got a Dell 5160 (which is just out of production). It's a P4 3.06 Ghz with 1.5Gb RAM, and it's not particularly portable, or it's painfully portable, if you will.

I'm not too keen on the Centrino or M processors at this point because a colleague got a 1.8 Ghz Centrino and my P4 is quite a lot faster: so the Centrino clock speed rule (Centrino x 1.6 = P4) vs P4 doesn't seem to hold.

Since Dell only sells the P4 in the XPS (total overkill for Revit) I'd probably buy a Toshiba next time.

[dg]

Check out the HP zd8000.

I have just purchased one and it crunches through Revit no problem. The 17" screen is brilliant for working in a few views all at once. The keyboard has a separate numeral pad which makes input easier.

I have a 3.2 P4 processor with 1 gig RAM model with 256mb PCI graphics (zd8185) but I understand that you guys in the US can configure your components online.

Intrestingly, the processor can be removed and upgraded in the future.

I also use the built-in bluetooth to connect a MS wirreless bluetooth mouse which works really well.

I had a look at the Dell models, but they were much more expensive for a similar (or even inferior) spec.

[hand471037]

I'm not too keen on the Centrino or M processors at this point because a colleague got a 1.8 Ghz Centrino and my P4 is quite a lot faster: so the Centrino clock speed rule (Centrino x 1.6 = P4) vs P4 doesn't seem to hold.

huh, cause I just went from a Sager 4080 laptop (P4 3.0 Ghz HT with a Gig of Ram) to a Dell Precision M70 (Centrino 2.2 Ghz with two gigs of Ram) and other than being very slightly slower at rendering it's faster in every way than the Sager, while also being more portable and *not* making everyone think I've got a dustbuster at my desk because of the fans... 8)

But I'm very happy with the Centrino so far.

[mlgatzke]

Chris,

I'm using a Dell XPS and love it. Mine has the P4 3.2Ghz with 2GB of RAM, the UXGA widescreen, a dvd burner, and the upgraded video. It rocks. It still has one of the highest Revit benchmarks on the list . . . and mine is a year old already. It has been a wonderful machine for me. Also, it's faster than any clients' machines when I visit them in their office.

Other people here may dislike Dell or say that other machines are better, but my Dell machines (and I've had around 60 of them - no, I'm not kidding) have been rock solid and fast.

The only thing I might recommend is that you look at their M90 notebook. It's not quite a fast, not quite as flashy looking, but it's more solid and lighter weight.

Jeff, that could be because the M90 is a Precision workstation architecture which is built specifically for CAD and 3D modeling. Heck, even the bios is custom modified for this purpose. Just think how much faster a P4 would operate.

[hand471037]

Jeff, that could be because the M90 is a Precision workstation architecture which is built specifically for CAD and 3D modeling. Heck, even the bios is custom modified for this purpose. Just think how much faster a P4 would operate.

Actually, I'm thinking about how much faster dual Opterons would be. :D

Depending on how things go, with this new job, which gave me the new laptop, I'm thinking I'll sell my Sager and put the money toward a new home dual Opteron rendering box.

Thanks for the tip about the thing being custom for CAD, I didn't know that. Not really up to speed with what Dell has to offer. Again, I didn't pick this laptop, but am pleasantly surprised at how well it's working so far.

[mlgatzke]

Yep, Dell designs the Precision line specifically for CAD and 3D modeling. All parts are chosen and certified specifically for that purpose. Just thought you'd appreciate knowing.

[Wes Macaulay]

huh, cause I just went from a Sager 4080 laptop (P4 3.0 Ghz HT with a Gig of Ram) to a Dell Precision M70 (Centrino 2.2 Ghz with two gigs of Ram) and other than being very slightly slower at rendering it's faster in every way than the Sager, while also being more portable and *not* making everyone think I've got a dustbuster at my desk because of the fans... 8)

But I'm very happy with the Centrino so far.Yeah - we only have the option of Dells in my office and I didn't want the XPS -- it's even more of a beast than the 5160 -- and I did have a budget to work within. The Centrinos are a lot more buck for the same bang.

And yeah, it sounds like it's going to fly right off the desk when it's working hard... thought it's not as noisy as the 5150's some of our other guys have. Not to mention the horrible motherboard problems those things had. Arrgh

[Mr Spot]

What would people recommend for something portable... I've seen most of the P4 machines are extremely bulky and very un-mobile.

I understand there are new models coming out with proper workstation cards, anyone using these? Battery life is another issue; I'd need it to last for a 2 hour flight then still have some power for meeting with clients - i undestand the P4's running off a battery have a very short life?

Cheers, for you help...

[Wes Macaulay]

What would people recommend for something portable... I've seen most of the P4 machines are extremely bulky and very un-mobile.

I understand there are new models coming out with proper workstation cards, anyone using these? Battery life is another issue; I'd need it to last for a 2 hour flight then still have some power for meeting with clients - i undestand the P4's running off a battery have a very short life?

Cheers, for you help...Depends on how many amp-hours you've got in the batteries. My P4-powered Dell is good for just over three hours. The Centrinos can do five, evidently. My laptop weighs between 8 and 9 pounds; the Centrinos can get down to six, thanks to reduced power needs, less cooling required, etc.

For portability do get a Centrino or M-based laptop...

[rookwood]

For portability do get a Centrino or M-based laptop...

Do you believe the P M processor is close to being as capable with rendering as the P4? The reason that I ask is I have been reviewing and searching at some length for a workstation notebook to replace my 2 year old Dell Inspiron 8500, which replaced 2 previous Inspirons. I thought I had decided on the P4 until I began reading this thread this morning and see that you guys are having apparent success with the P M processor.

My I8500 ( P4 M, 2.4 GHz, 1 G RAM and GeForce4 4200 Go) performs admirably with Revit except when rendering. Since I travel a lot and this is my only computer, render time is effectively down time for me. Portability (i.e., weight, size, battery life, etc.) are non issues as it is only used in my office, home or a hotel room.

Intel has recommended that I choose the 3.6 GHz P4 660 EM64T processor for max. power/speed and the fact it is ready to accept 64 bit technology (very important to me, especially when condsidering the financial investment I am about to make). Unfortunately, Dell has pulled the P4 from their entire mobile lineup. The Dell M70 Mobile Precision Workstation cannot be configured with dual 7,200 RPM drives either. Since I am looking for every bit of performance boost I can muster, I would prefer the dual drives in a RAID 0 setup.

To date, the system I keep going back to is the Clevo D900T bare bone unit as marketed by either Boxx or Hypersonic (also Sager, Eurocom, Voodoo, Alienware and several others) P4 660 EM64T, 4GB RAM, dual 60 GB 7,200 RPM hard drives setup with RAID 0, NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1400 256MB and 17" screen. The reports on these 12 pound machines are nothing short of awesome for mobile computing and, generally, cost about the same as the Dell M70.

If size, weight, battery life and cost were non issues, what workstation notebook would you have built for your use? I think what I am really searching for is a good and valid reason to stay with Dell!

Thanks in advance for your help as I have had one he**uva time with this.

[hand471037]

Do you believe the P M processor is close to being as capable with rendering as the P4? The reason that I ask is I have been reviewing and searching at some length for a workstation notebook to replace my 2 year old Dell Inspiron 8500, which replaced 2 previous Inspirons. I thought I had decided on the P4 until I began reading this thread this morning and see that you guys are having apparent success with the P M processor.

I just jumped from a Sager 4080 w/a desktop P4 3.0 Ghz to a Dell Precision w/a 2.2 Ghz Centrino.

The rendering time is slower. But not by a huge amount. I ran the 'Revit Render Benchmark' and I remember the number between the Sager and the Dell not being that different. I'm sorry that I can't remember the numbers, I'll see if I can dig them up for you today.

However, the Centrino is faster in day-to-day work than the P4 in my experance so far. Large models are much snapper. But that could also do with going from 1 gig of ram to 2.

But you'll always get more rendering back for your buck from the desktop processors. The Centrinos are great, really great, but do compromise on raw speed for the better day-to-day speeds and protability. This Dell I've got now is MUCH more portable than the Sager, and much better to use, actually.

What I'd recommend, if I were in your shoes, is to get a cheaper laptop that runs a Centrino and is a solid working machine, and then use the leftover money to get a barebones dual desktop Opteron box for Rendering, and Remote Desktop to it when you need to Render. You'll actually be a lot more producive that way, for then while rendering you can keep working on things, instead of having to wait for the machine to finish before you can keep working, and your renderings will finish much quicker on the Dual Opterons than on a single AMD64 laptop.

[rookwood]

Thanks Jeff for the reply. Perhaps it is because of my inexperience with Revit, but I find myself spending a lot of time rendering just trying to get colors, materials, lighting, etc. to look decent. Even in draft mode at 75 dpi, it takes a fair amount of time. This probably will always be done on my laptop because I spend so much time doing it, but I could see doing the final rendering on a desktop and just let it sit there doing it's thing.

This brings up an important issue with the Revit license. Can I install my Revit seat on my laptop and another machine? My local reseller says yes because it's an entitlement which comes with the Subscription Series. I'm leary about this.

I recently did a tenant finish in one of our retail spec buildings for a CyberCafe setup. After the finish work was completed and the owner fitted the place with expensive latte machines and a dozen custom built internet ready gaming computers, he defaulted and went bankrupt without even opening the doors. I took 3 of the machines and gave 2 to my grandchildren. My son just called and said these are 'smoking' machines with excellent nVidia cards. This could be a perfect setup, if I am permitted by Autodesk to install Revit on two machines.

[hand471037]

This brings up an important issue with the Revit license. Can I install my Revit seat on my laptop and another machine? My local reseller says yes because it's an entitlement which comes with the Subscription Series. I'm leary about this.

It's my understanding that this is true. As long as they aren't being used at the same time, and are only used by you, it's legal to have a 'Moble' and a 'Home' copy.

[christo4robin]

What is the difference between the Pentium M series (like in the Dell M70 as of yesterday) and the Centrino processors?

[GuyR]

Can I install my Revit seat on my laptop and another machine?

Yes, you are allowed 2 license per seat.


What is the difference between the Pentium M series (like in the Dell M70 as of yesterday) and the Centrino processors

Centrino is just a marketing term for the laptops that have the integrated Intel wireless chipset.

So, Centrino laptop = pentium M + wireless
A pentium M laptop either uses a separate wirless card or a non Intel wireless chipset.

HTH,

Guy

[rookwood]

What is the difference between the Pentium M series (like in the Dell M70 as of yesterday) and the Centrino processors?

'Pentium M' refers to the Intel Pentium M families of mobile processors.

'Centrino' refers to the Intel Centrino Mobile Technology which was created for wireless connectivity and to provide better mobile performance and battery life. It incorporates the Intel Pentium M processor, the Intel 855 or Intel 915 Express chipset families and the Intel Pro/Wireless network card.

[rookwood]

Yes, you are allowed 2 license per seat.



Centrino is just a marketing term for the laptops that have the integrated Intel wireless chipset.

So, Centrino laptop = pentium M + wireless
A pentium M laptop either uses a separate wirless card or a non Intel wireless chipset.

HTH,

Guy

Thanks for your response and sorry I posted the Centrino reply after yours...didn't notice it in time.

[Phil Read]

The ideal laptop? A 17" Powerbook running OS X Tiger.

Just installed 10.4 tonight (yeah it's Friday - but I've got a wife and kids now...:)

Too freaking cool!

Maybe one day....what do you think Guy?

-Phil

[GuyR]

Too freaking cool if it ran on my(wife's) AMD64...:-)

Not wanting to start another Apple/intel debate but it doesn't matter how freaking cool it is when your hardware is expensive and you only have 5% of the market.

Yeah a *nix core would be great, yeah it'd be cool if MS lost significant share but you're not going to do it as long as the average Joe has to buy a new PC to run OSX. Most people just aren't that interested in computers.

I'd personally prefer Revit on Linux, but OSX wouldn't be so bad...;-)

I just feel sorry for the Revit development team who are going to have Phil spamming them with requests for Revit on OSX , again...... ;-) ;-)

Guy

[Lashers]

I must say, if Revit was on the Mac I would very seriously consider a change of platforms! I have recently been setting up Powerbooks and associating with a company that uses Mac's - first time for about 10 years - and I am still amazed at the sheer beauty and intuitive feel of the interface. I had thought MSofties had caught up . .ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc.

[Wes Macaulay]

Do you believe the P M processor is close to being as capable with rendering as the P4?
No, I don't. None of our current crop of M/Centrino notebooks can match a laptop P4.

My I8500 ( P4 M, 2.4 GHz, 1 G RAM and GeForce4 4200 Go) performs admirably with Revit except when rendering. Since I travel a lot and this is my only computer, render time is effectively down time for me. Portability (i.e., weight, size, battery life, etc.) are non issues as it is only used in my office, home or a hotel room.
If you're on the road at all, these P4 computers are horrid for portability. But if you don't mind treating it as another piece of significant luggage, then it's all good.

Intel has recommended that I choose the 3.6 GHz P4 660 EM64T processor for max. power/speed and the fact it is ready to accept 64 bit technology (very important to me, especially when condsidering the financial investment I am about to make). Unfortunately, Dell has pulled the P4 from their entire mobile lineup. The Dell M70 Mobile Precision Workstation cannot be configured with dual 7,200 RPM drives either. Since I am looking for every bit of performance boost I can muster, I would prefer the dual drives in a RAID 0 setup.
I don't know what Dell is smoking... pulling the P4's from their lineup for now means the fastest laptop is being made by someone else.

To date, the system I keep going back to is the Clevo D900T bare bone unit as marketed by either Boxx or Hypersonic (also Sager, Eurocom, Voodoo, Alienware and several others) P4 660 EM64T, 4GB RAM, dual 60 GB 7,200 RPM hard drives setup with RAID 0, NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1400 256MB and 17" screen. The reports on these 12 pound machines are nothing short of awesome for mobile computing and, generally, cost about the same as the Dell M70.
Exactly... maybe Dell isn't providing the value it used to! Profit-hungry perhaps?

If size, weight, battery life and cost were non issues, what workstation notebook would you have built for your use? I think what I am really searching for is a good and valid reason to stay with Dell!
I wouldn't get a Dell at this point. The only other popular branded laptop that we see keeping up here in Canada is the Toshiba laptops. But it sounds to me like you're on the right track with those specs -- you could hardly beat those in a desktop!

[rookwood]

Wes;

Thanks for the great comeback and, after many months of anguish, you've just sealed it for me.

BTW: Are you familiar with the Canadian firm EUROCOM? They market the same Clevo unit with the BEST configuration. However, when I put the cost together, using the US $$$, man how expensive! Almost $1,000 than the unit from BOXX or Hypersonic, which are both more expensive than other resellers. Devalued US$ perhaps? I know most resellers will make you a deal, but I don't know if they will match the others. I am duly impressed with their offerings and discovered them by way of the nVidia website marketing their Quadro cards.

[FK]

My favorite used laptop vendor, Renew Laptops (http://renewlaptops.com), has just sold me an open-box (returned and refurbished) HP Pavilion with a 2.8 GHz screamer for $920. The machine is not for me, so I'm not going to be spinning Revit on it and won't be able to comment on compatibility, but the deals are out there.

[hand471037]

The ideal laptop? A 17" Powerbook running OS X Tiger.

My wife just got a new 15" G4 1.5 from her job. It's so nice.... man.

And that myth that Mac only has 5% of the marketshare just has to die. It's way off-base, doesn't even look at what's really going on or the whole picture, and is just simply wrong. Sorry, don't mean to harp on you Guy. Maybe where you are it really is 5%. Here it's a lot more.

[GuyR]

And that myth that Mac only has 5% of the marketshare just has to die

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/20/marketshare/index.php

Statistics can tell a lie but I doubt the 2% is 20%. Apple are a little like Revit before Autodesk. Fantastic design, excellent coding but no market momentum with the large firms.

If you are purchasing 1000 PC's then every $ counts. Having to retrain people with a new OS and potentially a new office suite (say Openoffice) is a huge cost. Apple's big opportunity is Longhorn. It's looking like Longhorn has major hardware requirements. I've read min. 1GB RAM!!!

Guy

[rookwood]

My wife just got a new 15" G4 1.5 from her job. It's so nice.... man.

And that myth that Mac only has 5% of the marketshare just has to die. It's way off-base, doesn't even look at what's really going on or the whole picture, and is just simply wrong. Sorry, don't mean to harp on you Guy. Maybe where you are it really is 5%. Here it's a lot more.

From MacWorld:
IDC: Apple shows 9.3 percent US unit sales growth
Global market intelligence and advisory firm IDC released its data on shipments of personal computers in the United States for the second quarter of 2004. Apple ranks fifth on the list with a total of 495,000 CPU units shipped, or about 3.7 of the market -- trailing Dell, HP, Gateway and IBM. Regardless, Apple's numbers show overall growth from year to year, if a bit below the average of 10.9 percent.

Does the annual growth of 9.3%, below the average of 10.9%, mean they are losing overall market share?

[hand471037]

Does the annual growth of 9.3%, below the average of 10.9%, mean they are losing overall market share?

problem is that these numbers don't really tell the real story. What all these folks are talking about is the number of new computers sold every year, not the 'installed base' which is the REAL market number of what's really out there.

For example, a typical Mac user buys a new computer every four years on adverage rather then the two that us PC guys tend to do. So right there your number of total percentage of comptuers sold is going to be off, for assuming that 5% of computers sold = 5% of computers used doesn't take this into effect at all. Or the fact that total number of computers sold doesn't equal actual desktops, there are many other uses, like point-of-sale, ATM's, and more that Mac isn't even within. There wasn't even a POS Mac-based solution until Apple opened it's own Retail stores and made one for itself. So total number of units sold is a pretty limited way to mesure what's really out there, and that's unfortunately where most of these numbers are coming from. That's all.

But this is way off-topic, so I'm not going to say more than that.

[GuyR]

not the 'installed base' which is the REAL market number of what's really out there.

Sorry Jeffrey it's still not looking good. Check this site:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

If installed base was a measure then browser usage would show this. As a web development site you'd expect Mac to have a stronger presence on the w3schools site. Interesting Linux browsers %'s are above Apple's now.

Guy

[David Sammons]

I use a Dell Precision M60 with a Pentium M 2.00GHz processor, 2.00 B of RAM and an nVIDIA Quadro FX Go1000 video card. This system falls in the category of "mobile workstations". It has the performance of many mid-range workstations with the portability of a notebook.

Since I do very little rendering, I can not comment on its performance for rendering but I am very pleased with its performance when running Revit.

Dell now has the M70.

[hand471037]

I use a Dell Precision M60 with a Pentium M 2.00GHz processor, 2.00 B of RAM and an nVIDIA Quadro FX Go1000 video card. This system falls in the category of "mobile workstations". It has the performance of many mid-range workstations with the portability of a notebook.

Since I do very little rendering, I can not comment on its performance for rendering but I am very pleased with its performance when running Revit.

Dell now has the M70.

Which is what I'm using now, and I second this. The higher-speed Centrinos with a lot of Ram and decent 3D card really make a nice combo. Not the fastest at rendering, but actually quicker the rest of the time in my experance so far, and a lot more portable.

And Guy, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You grabbed one thing, and have decided that it shows the whole picture of what's going on in regards to installed base and true marketshare.

[GuyR]

You grabbed one thing, and have decided that it shows the whole picture of what's going on in regards to installed base and true marketshare.

???? It's a very emotive subject so I'm interested in facts. All I'm saying is show me figures that do show a significant marketshare. Unit sales and browser stats do give you a pretty good idea. Please prove me wrong, and no browser stats for apple.com wouldn't do it :-) .

Guy

[hand471037]

???? It's a very emotive subject so I'm interested in facts. All I'm saying is show me figures that do show a significant marketshare. Unit sales and browser stats do give you a pretty good idea. Please prove me wrong, and no browser stats for apple.com wouldn't do it :-) .

Guy

Guy, the issue is that I disagree with the idea that looking at Unit Sales and Browser Stats give you a good idea of Marketshare.

For example, cut out all the Windows licenses for things like point-of-sale, ATM's, kiosks, Public Transit System ticket machines, etc. for those are things that Macs simply aren't used for much.

Now also cut out the generic office user & the home users, and just look at the working professionals and college researchers, the two big drivers (outside of games) of new technology IMHO.

Within that small slice, the numbers for who's got what are really different, and much of what happens within that area trickles down over time into the other markets. When you look there, you see a lot of new Macs, and you see a growing marketshare. And that's the area that I care about, for it's the area you and I are in, I could care less about what most people are doing out there who don't really use their computer as much as we do, I care that *I* can get the best system I can so that I can do more than I've been able to do before.

I'm not emotional about this, frankly, I don't care too much what you think about it. I was just pointing out that the commonly said '5%' number isn't really meaningful. To me at least.

[Joef]

I think a good question would be: What system: (PC, Linux, Mac) do architects & designers use? I know here in Victoria the majority of architectural offices use Macs. So porting to the Mac platform has nothing to do with "installed base" it has to do with "prospective customers". Creating a Mac version of Revit would mean that Autodesk could sell to almost 100% of the Architectural customers rather than to the current percentage whatever that is. I am certain that someone at Autodesk has done the math.

Joe

[Phil Read]

Guy Guy Guy...Life in NZ must be pretty good to take time out to rile Jeffrey.;)

You must admit it's not about overall market share. That's a bit of a red herring. It's more about the market share of what you do - right? So what's the MS/OSX/NIX/other market space for AEC/Design/Visualization professionals? Wouldn't it be truer to look at those segments as a starting point?

Photoshop?
Maya?
SketchUp?
Grarblesoft?

Anyway - not a forum for this sort of discuss (sorry mods!). I say we chip in a ticket to get guy over to AU so we can hassle him properly! I'm in for $100 and a round! :)

And don't worry Jeffrey - you may get the last word in when Australia annexes those little island territories to the south. You see - when you add the Aussies and the Kiwis together - the Kiwis only make up about 15% of the "population" market. Clearly not enough to warrant *another* "platform", i.e., government, currency, flag, cricket or rugby teams, etc...;)

-P

[hand471037]

Anyway - not a forum for this sort of discuss (sorry mods!). I say we chip in a ticket to get guy over to AU so we can hassle him properly! I'm in for $100 and a round! :)

I'm down for that action! let's start a paypal account to get Guy over to AU this year. I'll buy pints for both of ya' :D

[GuyR]

Guy Guy Guy...Life in NZ must be pretty good to take time out to rile Jeffrey.

Couldn't be better. Just waiting for those Maxwell renders to finish :-)


Wouldn't it be truer to look at those segments as a starting point?

Do we include renderfarms etc? Look it'd be great if OSX killed MS, the quality of the hardware is good but it still comes back to why swap? And is their share of these markets growing? I still think they need OSX AMD64.

Why ditch a PC to purchase a MAC? New interface, new software training costs. And for that matter what would Autodesk gain from Revit OSX?


I say we chip in a ticket to get guy over to AU so we can hassle him properly! I'm in for $100 and a round!

YAY!! something we agree on, I'm all for it :-) With the other half up the duff again I've forgotten what alcohol tastes like. A pity she's not one of those assets to the human race that drinks throughout the pregnancy. Certainly makes for an easier baby to push out.:-)


You see - when you add the Aussies and the Kiwis together - the Kiwis only make up about 15% of the "population" market. Clearly not enough to warrant *another* "platform", i.e., government, currency, flag, cricket or rugby teams, etc..

As someone married to a 15%'er you should know better than to make a comment like that ;-) Given we haven't got a defense force anymore (no natural resources worth invading for) it'd be cheaper if the Aussies just jumped into one of their F16's and blew up the beehive.

Sadly enough this process has begun with talks on common banking laws. Just like any other 'platform' issue it's all about the money.....

Guy

[rookwood]

For example, cut out all the Windows licenses for things like point-of-sale, ATM's, kiosks, Public Transit System ticket machines, etc. for those are things that Macs simply aren't used for much.

Now also cut out the generic office user & the home users, and just look at the working professionals and college researchers, the two big drivers (outside of games) of new technology IMHO.


Why not just cut out everything that isn't OS X based?

"outside of games"??? Two billion dollar a year industry!

Granted, Apples' sales are up, just not up to the national average. This results in declining market share. CAUSE FOR ALARM!

[hand471037]

Granted, Apples' sales are up, just not up to the national average. This results in declining market share. CAUSE FOR ALARM!

You don't say? You think they are going to go under soon?

Wow, you know, I wish I could go out of business like Apple. I mean, they have been going out of business, with doom and gloom and such, for what, 20 years now? While raking in the money? And more or less cornering the mp3 player market? Oh wait, the online music sales market too. And, uh, BMW, Audi, VW are all offering as options iPod attachments now built into the cars. Oh, look at that, they just released a very nicely made 64-bit OS too! And all the geeks I know have bought or are planning on buying Macs soon. Oh wait, didn't I hear something about a University or two linking a bunch of them together and making a real cheap supercomputer for a lot less money than anyone else year or so ago? And that friend of mine's sister that works at Apple, I mean, geeze, she got a big raise this year, and that other friend of mine who owns a lot of Apple stock, well, he's doing pretty good too. Yeah. I wish I could be going out of business like that, I wish my marketshare was declining too!

I mean, not like Microsoft. oh no. It's online music sales is... oh wait, they don't have one. OK, then it's next generation OS... what? It's not even a beta yet? OK then it's home auto..ma..tion... nevermind. OK, Tablet PC, yes Tablet PCs!!! What? No so hot either? Hmmm. OK, what about it's server offerings?!? They are king right? No? What? Well what about it's Media Center PCs? No so good eather? What? They are doing well with Games? Huh. Games & Xbox. Well that really helps me out, for you all know that's how I make my living. Playing Games.

[Steve_Stafford]

This thread is offtrack...are we going get back to it? If not, please take the OS discussion to our Out There forum...thanks!

[hand471037]

sorry. I'll take any and all OS X threads there in the future, for I agree, this is pretty useless. If you want to, please just delete my OS X posts, I don't care, and they do clutter things up. Sorry to respond so much to them, guess it's fun to poke fun at me for I'm likely to respond or something. You'd think I'd learn! ;-)

[Wes Macaulay]

Well, Jeff, we just know where your nerve endings live now... hehehe

I do agree. It's positively rotten to have to recommend a laptop using Windows...

[Steve_Stafford]

I see no reason to be dramatic and delete posts. It's an interesting discussion, just better off in another forum if you all wish to continue. I'm trying to pick out a notebook too and finding the choices overwhelming. I do like the HP one with the inboard keypad, which was recommended earlier...just concerned that it really can perform?

[rookwood]

This thread is offtrack...are we going get back to it? If not, please take the OS discussion to our Out There forum...thanks!

I believe the foremost issue, and the one I spent the greatest amount of time dealing with, is which processor to use. Since I will be using my notebook for rendering, and with help from Wes and Jeffrey, I decided on the P4 family, specifically the P4 660 EM64T. This is, currently, the most powerful/versatile of the P4's and is equipped to handle x64 bit computing. However, choosing the P4 removes from consideration the vast majority of notebooks available.

The cons to notebooks using this processor are well documented and should be seriously considered. Perhaps the most serious issue is that of heat, to the point that the computer may shut down. Intel advised me to choose the P4 even if I had to find means of providing axillary cooling. Isn't that just swell!

Considering the P M processor, I would take a close look at ASUS (motherboard fame). Perhaps as well made as Thinkpads and best form factor out there, in my opinion. On the other hand, I've had three Dell Inspirons and can't say enough about Dell and the GREAT service I have received over the years.

Certainly not an easy decision since there are so many things to consider. Fortunately, or unfortunately, the P4 reduced the field considerably. Graphics card and workstation capable notebooks also reduces the options There are only a handful of companies making workstation notebooks and few OpenGL card options are available.

I am waiting now only for the implementaion of WindowsXP 64. One company, Hypersonic, added it last evening to their gaming notebooks and expect it ready by weeks end for their workstation notebooks.

[GuyR]

just concerned that it really can perform?

I'm with Jeffrey on this. I haven't seen a laptop I'd want as my primary Revit PC now. When I purchased my Dell 3GHz laptop 18 months ago I initially thought I'd never buy another desktop again. It's great to have a laptop for presentations but the cost of a high spec laptop just isn't worth it IMO and the speed machines are a good workout carrying them around. You can't upgrade components easily, and getting lots of RAM is very expensive. eg;

From the Dell website:

M70 2GHz 15.4"WXUGA screen, Quadro FX1400 60GB 7200RPM drive and 1GB RAM = $2856

With 2GB RAM it's another $750 = $3606

For the $400 less you could have:

Inspiron 6000 1.8GHz 15.4 WSXGA screen, 128MB x300 Radeon 60GB drive and 1 GB RAM = $2028

+ a Dell 3300MP Projector = $1279

And I know what would make you more popular at home :-)

Guy

[dg]

.... I do like the HP one with the inboard keypad, which was recommended earlier...just concerned that it really can perform?

It copes well with Revit - as good as my equivalent (except for lower spec graphics) desktop.

The only slightly annoying thing is that the screen has a reflective coating - like glass. This is apparently due to it being primerily intended as a media centre pc, but it means that the screen has to be carefully positioned to avoid any distracting relections.

Having said that, the screen is crystal clear and has great definition when a suitable viewing position is found.

[Steve_Stafford]

The only slightly annoying thing is that the screen has a reflective coating - like glass. This is apparently due to it being primerily intended as a media centre pc, but it means that the screen has to be carefully positioned to avoid any distracting relections.
Dark room? Black out shades? ;)

How much ram did you buy for yours?

[dg]

Nothing that dramatic. Its just a case of avoiding windows behind you or tilting the screen slightly to avoid reflection from a light source. But positions are more limited than with a traditional screen.

I have 1gb RAM which was preinstalled, and this seems adequate. I don't do any large rendering models. As I mentioned, US customers can specify your components and are not limited to preconfigured models like us in the UK.

[Steve_Stafford]

...US customers can specify your components and are not limited to preconfigured models like us in the UK...I was thinking the 2gb upgrade...price wise, it's really competitive when you compare a similarly configured dell at twice the price. Thanks for the feedback...

[iru69]

Regarding the reflective screen - I'd strongly recommend seeing one in person. Someone in our office just saw a Dell laptop with one of those screens (TrueVision ?). Personally, it would drive me nuts (they seem even worse then the old CRTs). But the person who got it doesn't (think) she'll mind... so obviously it bothers some people more than others.

[rookwood]

Regarding the reflective screen - I'd strongly recommend seeing one in person. Someone in our office just saw a Dell laptop with one of those screens (TrueVision ?). Personally, it would drive me nuts (they seem even worse then the old CRTs). But the person who got it doesn't (think) she'll mind... so obviously it bothers some people more than others.

I don't know that you have any choice if you want the 17" screen, do you? All I have seen are options for different resolutions.

BTW: Even though I am a huge fan of Dell, they really get you on RAM upgrades. You may be better off buying elsewhere and installing yourself. This is the advice I received on numerous occasions on the notebook forums. BOXX offers 4GB RAM for $872 total for their workstation notebook.

[hand471037]

Regarding the reflective screen - I'd strongly recommend seeing one in person. Someone in our office just saw a Dell laptop with one of those screens (TrueVision ?). Personally, it would drive me nuts (they seem even worse then the old CRTs). But the person who got it doesn't (think) she'll mind... so obviously it bothers some people more than others.

My Sager 4080 had this 'glossy' screen. I didn't mind it. It did make for a sharper picture, which a lot of people did comment on how nice it looked. However, it did have glare issues, and I can see how it might drive someone crazy. You should see one. Go down to CompUSA or the like, they should have one there.

Rook: While heat in the P4 laptops is an issue, it's not too bad. The biggest problem I had was with instability at high heat levels, but no outright freezes or crashes. The Sager is really like a Hot Rod; it's not comfortable, it's not practical, it's kinda fragile, but man does it look good and run fast. ;-)

So buy one of these, it made a big difference:
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=317106&pfp=BROWSE

Just having something under it to allow maximum airflow went a long ways.

'cept that it was one more thing to lug around :-P

[Wes Macaulay]

The cons to notebooks using this processor are well documented and should be seriously considered. Perhaps the most serious issue is that of heat, to the point that the computer may shut down. Intel advised me to choose the P4 even if I had to find means of providing axillary cooling. Isn't that just swell!The Dell has one hell of a fan... even while rendering I have had no crashes - none whatsoever.

[rookwood]

Thanks Jeffrey for the info. If I remember correctly, the first generation of the Dell XPS notebook was a P4 with pads at the corners, raising the unit off the surface just to get air flowing under it.

I know it would appear extreme to spend this much money on a notebook and then be burdened with this additional baggage. The necessity to produce renderings for client presentation, while on the road, is the only reason for making this decision. If not for that, I'd probably get the Inspiron XPS Gen 2 with the new 256MB NVIDIA GeForce Go 6800 Ultra and be satisfied for a very long time.

My Inspiron 8500 (P4 M, 2.4 GHz, 1 GB RAM) does quite well, but 4 hours to render 10% of a small residential interior scene (300 DPI) is unacceptable.

[BomberAIA]

I was just looking at the new Dell Laptops since they do have the M processor. I have a HP ZD7000 3.2 MHz w/ Extreme Edition Chip, 2gigs ram, 17" screen. The only problems I have is it turns off by itself sometimes. I think it is because the chip gets very hot. This really bothers me. Also, the battery only last 1 hour. The Extreme Edition Chip was a waste of money, $800.00 extra. I found out after I purchased the HP, it has no benefit to Revit. I'm looking at Dell because of the battery life and because it's lighter than what I have. My HP is about twice as fast as my Dell Latitude 1.4 MHz laptop, but it does over heat. I will report back when I make my final decision.

[dg]

For laptop cooling try one of these www.antec.com/uk/pro_notebookcooler.html

They run off the USB port and two fans cool the laptop right down if under heavy load. It is also good as a firm base if you actually use the laptop on you lap and allows air to any underside vents - keeps the area nice and cool!!
Not too noisy either

[Andre Baros]

Not to re-ignite the mac/pc thing, but my wife's 6 year old ibook has a six hour battery life. My 2 year old PC laptops average about 2, less if your using them. One is a Dell, one is an IBM, both are supposed to be more mobile not workstation class. I'm sure battery life is better now, for both.

For years I used Autocad and couldn't use a mac. Now I'm using Revit and once again I can't use a mac. For desktops I'm happy with the PC's... especially the hardware flexibility. But when it comes to laptops, the mac hardware/software integration really pays off and it's a drag not to be able to take advantage. I don't think its that off topic to say that the best laptop for Revit, can't run Revit yet.

[Griff]

I also need to get a new laptop. My current Dell Latitude 840 has several problems including it keeps overheating and losing data, not just from the crashes. Anyhow, we are locked into Dell here at work so I'm looking into either the Dell Precision M20 or M70 Mobile Workstation. I like the smaller size and less weight of the M20. The only concern I have is the display and graphics of the M20. The display and graphics on the M70 would be my choice but will there really be much difference? I don't do much rendering on my laptop. If I need to do rendering, I will most likely do it on my 340 workstation.

These are the differences that I see. Any input would be appreciated. I'm getting my boss to spend a lot of money and I want to make sure I can do the work.

M20
Display:
14.1" Super XGA + Active Matrix Display
Graphics:
Workstation class OpenGL accelerated ATI Mobility FireGL V3100 64 MB graphics
Size:
[/url][url="javascript:winopen('/content/learnmore/learnmore.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~id=mobilegfx&~line=workstations&~mode=popup&~series=precn','Main','WIDTH=595,HEIGHT=400,RESIZABLE=YES,SCROLLBARS=YES,TOOLBAR=YES,LEFT=0,TOP=20');"] (javascript:winopen('/content/learnmore/learnmore.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~id=mobilegfx&~line=workstations&~mode=popup&~series=precn','Main','WIDTH=595,HEIGHT=400,RESIZABLE=YES,SCROLLBARS=YES,TOOLBAR=YES,LEFT=0,TOP=20');)1.3" height x 12.3" width x 10.3" depth
Starting weight at 4.88 lbs.



M70
Display:
15.4" Dell UltraSharp WSXGA +Active Matrix Display
Graphics:
NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1400 256MB OpenGL graphics
Size
1.6" height x 14.2" width x 10.3" depth
Starting weight at 6.69 lbs.

[Wes Macaulay]

You need to compare the CPU specs for each model and then go to Intel's website to see the benchmarks for each CPU...

[Griff]

Both the Dell M20 and the M70 have the exact same processor.

Do you know if the video card (see previous post) for the M20 will perform if I am not doing renderings but just working on the Revit model?

My guess is the difference between the M20 & M70 display and graphics is only going to really be seen if I am doing rendering. Am I out in left field or is this correct?

[hand471037]

I can't compare with the M20, for I haven't used one, but I just got a M70 (new job) and it's really nice. It's actually a little faster than my old Sager 4080 (unless you're rendering) and it's great on the 3D. It's got some Nvidia card in it or something. And it's not any bigger/heavier than the Sager anyways, and has a very nice high-res widescreen ('cinima' format) that more than makes up for a lack of a second monitor IMHO...

But so far it's done rather well in regards to Moble Revit. Still, if it was my money, I'd buy a stupid fast AMD box, slave it to a fast network somewhere, and Remote Desktop to it from a Apple Laptop. :D

Just kidding. Don't think that would work that well unless I got a serous upgrade to my home DSL...

[Griff]

I need to order the laptop today. If anyone knows what type of performance drop I will have between the Dell Mobile Workstation M20 and the M70, I would really appreciate some input.

It seems the M70 is great, I'd just like the smaller lighter M20 for travel, but I don't dare spend that kind of money and then get something that can't run Revit while I'm on travel.

Like I mentioned, they both have the same exact processor and they will both have the same 2 GB of ram. The difference is in the Display and the Graphics card.

M20
Display:
14.1" Super XGA + Active Matrix Display
Graphics:
Workstation class OpenGL accelerated ATI Mobility FireGL V3100 64 MB graphics
Size:
1.3" height x 12.3" width x 10.3" depth
Starting weight at 4.88 lbs.



M70
Display:
15.4" Dell UltraSharp WSXGA +Active Matrix Display
Graphics:
NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1400 256MB OpenGL graphics
Size
1.6" height x 14.2" width x 10.3" depth
Starting weight at 6.69 lbs.

[mlgatzke]

Graphics:
Workstation class OpenGL accelerated ATI Mobility FireGL V3100 64 MB graphics
+Active Matrix Display
Graphics:
NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1400 256MB OpenGL graphics

That's a big difference in Video cards. I know I've been happier with my NVidia cards than any ATI I've had. ATI's are nice to start with, but they aren't real good about driver upgrades. Both machines are wonderful. Dell's Precision line is built specifically for CAD and 3D modeling. I'd recommend the M70 and KNOW you're getting a great machine. Why spend that much money and take a chance that you won't be satisfied? Personally, I never want my equipment to be the reason for any problem or shortcoming.

[hand471037]

Griff, Revit doesn't make super-heavy use of the Graphics card. It certainly helps, mind you, but not as much as it would if you were an animator using Max/Maya. I think you'd really notice a difference then. But it's my guess that if the two have the same processor and memory then the difference in the Graphics card wouldn't be that huge.

With that said, I've got the M70. My old laptop had a ATI Radeon Pro 9600 with 128 megs of Ram, and this one has the better Nvidia with 256, and I have noticed a nice performance difference. However this laptop also has more ram too.

In my personal experance, Revit loves (in this order) Ram, Processor Speed, and a nice Graphics Card.

So if the M70 is a lot more money or is going to be more cumbersome, well, obviously the M20 isn't going to be as fast, but I bet it would be enough (unless you also want to make heavy use of, say, Viz/Max for Animation).

How big are the projects you're working on? At an old office I was at we had people running on OpenGL cards with 64 megs, and while it wasn't as nice as the better machines (and was rather slow with Shadows) it certainly was workable for large projects. It's the 2 gigs of Ram that's really important here, that will help you out a lot more than a better video card IMHO...

[hand471037]

Oh, one more thing: This M70 isn't cumbersome at all IMHO. It's got a great screen, is a great size for comfortable work, and isn't too heavy. It's also built pretty solid.

My old Sager was heavier, ran hotter (a lot hotter!), and while bigger didn't have as nice a screen.

So unless you're working with a smaller laptop right now, I'd think that if you could afford it the M70 would pleasantly surprise you. :)

[Griff]

Thanks a bunch for the replies. There is only about $300 difference between the two Laptops. Your comment about the screen and that it isn't real heavy is going to be what helps me make this decision. The M70 is still going to be lighter than my current laptop, so I'm still win. I'm ordering the M70. Thanks again for the help.

[hand471037]

Thanks a bunch for the replies. There is only about $300 difference between the two Laptops. Your comment about the screen and that it isn't real heavy is going to be what helps me make this decision. The M70 is still going to be lighter than my current laptop, so I'm still win. I'm ordering the M70. Thanks again for the help.

This is a *very* nice screen, best I've worked on, and it's very comfortable and it's extra-width makes up for the lack of a second monitor. and it's great for watching movies ;-)

I'd kick down the extra $300 for it, it's well worth it IMHO. Glad to help.

[Tobie]

this is what i am getting next week.
the ram can go up to 4 gig
i am working on a dell inspiron 8500 at the moment ant she is struggling. will let you know how the new system goes with revit

Alienware Area-51m 7700

OS - Home - Microsoft Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 2
Case - 7700 - Area-51m 7700 Case with 17" WideSXGA+ 1680 x 1050 LCD Display with Built-in Camera - Xeno Grey - Includes Clearview Enhanced Display Technology
Video - 7700 - Area-51m 7700 NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Go with 256MB of DDR3 memory - Desktop Level Performance
CPU - 7700 - Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 550 w/ HT Technology 3.4GHz 1MB Cache
Motherboard - 7700 - Intel® 915P Chipset Supporting PCI-Express
Ram - 7700 - 2GB Dual Channel DDR2 4200 SO-DIMM @ 533MHz 2 x 1024
Sound - 7700 - Intel Integrated High-Definition Audio
HDD - Mobile 7700 - Dual Drive Configuration - Non Raid - 120Gb (60Gb x 2) 5400RPM
Optical 1 - 7700 - 8X Dual Layer DVD+/-RW / 24X CD-RW Combo w/Software
Optical 2 - 7700 - None
Ethernet Nic - 7700 - Integrated 10/1000Mb Gigabit Ethernet NIC
Wireless - 7700 - Internal Wireless 802.11a/b/g miniPCI Card - NOTE This card is not compatible with the X800 graphics option.
Modem - Mobile - 56K Modem with V.90 Technology - onboard
Mobile Transport - 7700 - Alienware® Premium Backpack
Speakers - None
Additional Battery 7700 - None
Optional Mouse - Mobile - Microsoft® IntelliMouse Explorer 4.0 - USB - Space Black
Display Two - None
Security Software - NortonT AntiVirusT 2005
Head phones - None
Blank Media - None
Printers - None
Warranty - 1-Year AlienCare Warranty Return To Base + Toll-Free Phone Support
Productivity Software - Microsoft Office Small Business Edition
Free Alienware Mousepad - Free Alienware® Mousepad (a $14.99 value)
Free Alienware T-Shirt - Free Alienware® T-Shirt - Black (a $19.99 value)
Desktop Enhancements - Exclusive AlienGUIse Theme Manager
AlienInspection - AlienInspection - Exclusive Integration and Inspection - $99.99 Value - FREE!