Revit 8.0 & 64 Bit Windows

[Batman]

Does Revit take advantage of 64 bit processing? Is there any advantage to be gained from going to the new windows 64 bit OS?

or Can anyone tell me whether going dual processors has more benefit.

I am currently on Windows 2k on a P4 2G, 512RAM, 256 video and I'm looking to upgrade so that my rendering times can be greatly reduced.

Can anyone offer some suggestions as to what works best hardware & OS wise ?

Thanks in advance.

[beegee]

>>>I'd shape my decision like this:

Does 64 bit hardware command a premium (that you are uneasy with)? No - grab it.

Do you need to use more than 2-3 gigs of RAM for your skyscraper? Yes - go 64 bit.

Otherwise, take 32 bit and relax.
Revit itself doesn't use dual processors or a dual core processor, but Accurender will benefit.

Refer to our BenchMark tests (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=3690&highlight=64Bit%2A)for more detail.

[Batman]

Great post, thanks BG.

Have any simliar tests been done on 7.0 or intention to do for 8.0?

[hand471037]

Does Revit take advantage of 64 bit processing? Is there any advantage to be gained from going to the new windows 64 bit OS?

I've been closely following this, and here's what I know so far:

1. Revit isn't 64 bit yet.

2. When it is, it will gain the ability to use more than 2-3 gigs of Ram, which certainly will help on large projects, but maybe not as much as you think.

3. That Microsoft hasn't done the 64bit conversion very well, and that there are some issues in how they decided to implement it that are going to somewhat hobble it (and software that's ported to it) in comparison to the other 64-bit systems out there (that have been going for a while now, MS is last to the party). This is a little disappointing, however this is from programmer friends, for I don't understand enough about this heady topic to really fully understand all the issues, so it might not be that big of a deal and a minor issue. However, as with all things Microsoft, I'd personally wait a while and several versions before I'd fully trust anything from them.

4. However, with that said, the 64bit Windows running on AMD is going to probably be faster anyways just due to the better and newer hardware, it's just that the '64 bit' part of it isn't really going to be as big of a deal as people think.

my 2 cents.

[Batman]

However, as with all things Microsoft, I'd personally wait a while and several versions before I'd fully trust anything from them.

I know what you mean. Found Windows 2000 Pro after many had said it was far more stable and have stuck with it. Given they have released their 64bit it may be time to move to WinXP Pro

[ilya.bass]

I've been closely following this, and here's what I know so far:

1. Revit isn't 64 bit yet.

2. When it is, it will gain the ability to use more than 2-3 gigs of Ram, which certainly will help on large projects, but maybe not as much as you think.

3. That Microsoft hasn't done the 64bit conversion very well, and that there are some issues in how they decided to implement it that are going to somewhat hobble it (and software that's ported to it) in comparison to the other 64-bit systems out there (that have been going for a while now, MS is last to the party). This is a little disappointing, however this is from programmer friends, for I don't understand enough about this heady topic to really fully understand all the issues, so it might not be that big of a deal and a minor issue. However, as with all things Microsoft, I'd personally wait a while and several versions before I'd fully trust anything from them.

4. However, with that said, the 64bit Windows running on AMD is going to probably be faster anyways just due to the better and newer hardware, it's just that the '64 bit' part of it isn't really going to be as big of a deal as people think.

my 2 cents.

from the factory: Jeffrey is right on the money. we are looking into 64 bit port, but I can't disclose if and when it will come. as of right now, there isn't any benefit in running Revit on a 64 bit CPU unless a CPU benchmark shows that 64 bit one is faster than comparably priced 32 bit. You'll have to do your own research on this...

As for Dual CPUs, they will only help with rendering (or running some other apps while Revit is doing some long updates). Multi-core (more or less the same end effect as multi-CPU) is becoming a reality so we are also looking at other ways of utilizing them, but again, I can't disclose any specifics.

[rookwood]

I would not recommend WindowsXP 64, but then I would recommend WindowsXP 64.

If you are considering upgrading only the OS, I would pass because the benefits gained by most users will not be recognized. The payoff probably won't warrant the frustrations you will experience in trying to get your current hardware, software, drivers, etc. recognized. However, programs heavily dependant on RAM, such as Adobe Photoshop, will benefit due to WindowsXP 64 being able to read more than the current limit of 2.78GB RAM.

A few words of caution if you are considering upgrading your current OS to WindowsXP 64:

1. At best it is a Windows kernel with 64-bit extensions that works on a handful of systems with a very specific hardware configuration, or to be specific on hardware that has working 64-bit drivers. Only a ‘limited number’ of peripherals is natively supported by the operating system, due to lack of a driver. For all of your other 64-bit driver needs you’ll have to look towards the manufacturer of your motherboard, graphics or sound card, printer, scanner, etc. to write a 64-bit driver.
2. You will lose your current Windows Product Key
3. You cannot go back to 'the good life' with the previous version of x32 Windows
4. There are, currently, serious issues with WindowsXP 64 being able to recognize the major virus protection packages being used. Microsoft is making available another program for the interim.
5. Microsoft makes very clear that the installation of Windows XP 64-bit will void any support with your PC manufacturer

WindowsXP 64 is huge, even right now. It will become an even larger force when Longhorn is released during the holiday season. Longhorn will give users a much broader reason to upgrade, thereby forcing more third party companies to get on board.

For this reason, I would configure a new computer with WindowsXP 64 and let the factory do most of the grunt work for you. You will also be positioned to take full advantage of x64 when it does get support from third party vendors. The release this week of WindowsXP 64 is the only reason I have held off and not ordered my new workstation notebook computer. I am willing to deal with the current problems only because a new computer can be configured with hardware to take advantage of 64 bit computing in the future. I question if an existing system would be worth the hassle.

With regards to a dual processor setup: You can benefit if you have the processors configured with certain RAID setups. The notebook I am ordering will have dual P4 660 processors with RAID 0. RAID 0 allows the processors to share the work, thereby increasing performance. RAID 1 mirrors the processors and therefore becomes a continuing backup. However, with RAID 0, if you lose 1 processor, you lose both. A gamble but a performance gain.

[FK]

Last time I checked RAID meant Redundant Array of Independent Drives.

Also, Longhorn is looking at a potentially unsurmountable hill of inertia. It has to be incredibly better and incredibly the same as XP simultaneously. It's going to be interesting to watch MS pull that off.

[hand471037]

WindowsXP 64 is huge, even right now. It will become an even larger force when Longhorn is released during the holiday season. Longhorn will give users a much broader reason to upgrade, thereby forcing more third party companies to get on board.

How is it huge? What do you mean? Do you mean it's got a lot of potential? Everyone I know using 64 bit systems are definitely not running XP 64, and from what I've heard about it so far it doesn't sound terribly impressive.

[Scott D Davis]

And I just read an article that stated that the 'great' new features of Longhorn (which probably wont be available until 2006) are features that are already in the new OS X. It's an uphill battle for MS....

[neb1998]

What is OS X?

[FK]

What is Google?

[Batman]

Yeah, word around is that XP64 is going to take a while (years) to 'take'.

I think I'll stick with current windows version and dual processors.

I'd be great if Revit was planning on going to Mac or linux. You never know.

Thanks for the feedback.

BTW - (just in case) OS x + Google = Apple - Mac Operating System

[Lashers]

This is all interesting, what I am wondering though is:-
If I am building a new system (AMD64) should I go with XP64 to make the best of it? Or just stick with XP Pro (32)?
Then there is these dual core boys just on the block?? Why can't life be simple? Maybe I should take up fishing?? Probably have as much trouble choosing rods and lines! Not to mention flies! ha ha

[FK]

If you find the plethora of choices depressing, congratulations, you are maturing out of hardware geekhood. Be prepared to be hit with a life.

The hardware selection rules for the life-endowed: avoid the latest and greatest, think capability not configurability, try to find a geek to offload as much as you can onto.

[Lashers]

If you find the plethora of choices depressing, congratulations, you are maturing out of hardware geekhood. Be prepared to be hit with a life.

The hardware selection rules for the life-endowed: avoid the latest and greatest, think capability not configurability, try to find a geek to offload as much as you can onto.

TRUE . . phssstt . .ahhhh

[hand471037]

This is all interesting, what I am wondering though is:-
If I am building a new system (AMD64) should I go with XP64 to make the best of it? Or just stick with XP Pro (32)?

I think the hardware you spec will drive that. There aren't, from what I've heard, much in the way of drivers available for XP 64 yet. So unless you *know* that the system you're building has *all* of the drivers it needs for XP64, I'd plan on going with XP Pro for now, but keeping with the AMD64's.

[Batman]

Is Dual Core available yet? If so, are they at reasonable cost?

[Lashers]

Is Dual Core available yet? If so, are they at reasonable cost?
AMD Just last week, and probably No!

Jeffrey, that's my gut feeling too. I was kind of hoping someone would tell me that they used the beta version of XP64 and all was well! ha . . Its late and I am in dreamland thinking that MSoftie would get something to market - with this strategic importance - right . . .ha ha ha ha ha ha . ."crazy laugh of the demented"

Cheers z z z z z . .

[GuyR]

Is Dual Core available yet? If so, are they at reasonable cost?

Reading the performance specs for the Intel version of the Dual-cores I think you're better off getting a fast single core PC unless you want to do a significant amount of rendering in parallel with running Revit. Even then you are probably better off with a dual CPU machine.

The reason is, although they are dual-cores they run at half the speed. So a 4GHz dual-core machine is actually 2x 2GHz cores. With Revit currently not multi-threaded you'll only be utilising a single core or 2GHz. Hence the advantage of fast single core machines eg: AMD64 4000+ machine.

Note: This is my interpretation of the benchmarks, real world experience might be different.

Guy

[rookwood]

Last time I checked RAID meant Redundant Array of Independent Drives.

Also, Longhorn is looking at a potentially unsurmountable hill of inertia. It has to be incredibly better and incredibly the same as XP simultaneously. It's going to be interesting to watch MS pull that off.


FK:

You are correct and I should have stated 'P4 660 processor with EM64T and dual 7,200RPM drives in a RAID 0 setup'.

With regards to your take on Longhorn, I don't know that you will ever see an 'incredibly better' release of any software given todays pressures and subsequent rush to get products to market. That is not always bad. Generally a new OS is not released with complete support from third party vendors because, historically, the vendors wait until the product is actually released. AMD had 64 bit server chips two years ago and 64 bit desktop processors for 18 months in anticipation of a much earlier release of WindowsXP 64. You would expect the release of WindowsXP 64 today will help pave the way for an easier migration to Longhorn in 2006.

There is a great deal of encouragement for 64 bit technology from vendors such as Intel, AMD, nVidia and others as they have already put their x64 products into the marketplace. So far, about 16,000 drivers have been rewritten for x64 and Cakewalk, developer of the world's leading music and sound software for Windows, rewrote their code and reported a 40% performance gain. Power users such as gaming, video editing, 3d modelling, intensive numbers crunching, etc. should receive the most benefits.

One could go back five years and replace x32 with x64, change the dates of current WindowsXP 64 reviews and read pretty much the same story lines as when Microsoft went from x16 to x32. The difficulties will certainly be there for 64 bit computing, as it was for 32 bit. Initially there WILL be a lack of driver support and vendors WILL be slow to rewrite their code.

Earlier in this thread I stated that I would not upgrade an existing OS to WindowsXP 64. It would probably be an older machine with no 64 bit technology, other than the new OS. There would be little, if any, performance gains to be realized.

I would, however, configure a new computer with all the 64 bit technology I could afford. It is anticipated that x64 and dual-core processing will produce a 10X performance increase over the next 4 years as compared to a 3X increase over the last 4 years. I feel that's HUGE!

So, after digesting all this technical garbage I have studied over the past several months, I will order my new laptop with WindowsXP 64. But I will do so remembering a quote I recently read: "It is said that a truly wise man never installs version one of anything".

[hand471037]

With regards to your take on Longhorn, I don't know that you will ever see an 'incredibly better' release of any software given todays pressures and subsequent rush to get products to market.

I disagree. The new OS X 10.4 'Tiger' is 'incredibly better' than both 10.3 'Panther' and what it sounds like Longhorn is going to be. It's certainly possible, but maybe not for Microsoft.


AMD had 64 bit server chips two years ago and 64 bit desktop processors for 18 months in anticipation of a much earlier release of WindowsXP 64.

No, they released them for the Linux Market, which has been happily using them for years now. As a matter of fact, it's *the* server platform for Linux, BSD, and even now (but less so) for Sun's Solaris. Also, it wasn't until recently that Intel gave up on their own 64bit standard, and went with AMD's instead, and even make it possible for Microsoft to make 'one' version of XP 64. Microsoft is really the last people to the table here.

They didn't make those processors for Windows, it's just now that Windows will be able to use them. The vast majority of AMD64's & Intel's 64-bit processors out there that have been bought have been put into service on the server side running Linux, not running 32-bit Windows waiting for the day that XP64 comes out.



One could go back five years and replace x32 with x64, change the dates of current WindowsXP 64 reviews and read pretty much the same story lines as when Microsoft went from x16 to x32. The difficulties will certainly be there for 64 bit computing, as it was for 32 bit. Initially there WILL be a lack of driver support and vendors WILL be slow to rewrite their code.

All due respect, and I don't mean to offend, but I think you're oversimplfying things somewhat here IMHO. The jump from 32 to 64 is significant, but isn't anything like the jump from 16 to 32.

Also, I personally, from what I've seen and read so far, think that Microsoft's not doing the jump right. I don't think they will be able to truly leverage all of the advantages of 64bit out of the gate, and that it will still be years before we really see it helping a lot.

Now, if MS's XP64 was the only 64bit OS out there that I use, this wouldn't matter. But it's not. So, for me at least, I'm actually rather disappointed at Microsoft, and if I could run Revit on anything else (or if someone made something that was even close for anything else) I'd jump ship overnight, for there isn't any real value anymore (to me personally) in buying more stuff from Microsoft.


I would, however, configure a new computer with all the 64 bit technology I could afford. It is anticipated that x64 and dual-core processing will produce a 10X performance increase over the next 4 years as compared to a 3X increase over the last 4 years. I feel that's HUGE!

It is huge, if it's really true. I'm very doubtful if it's really going to be a 10X increase. And even if it is, it's going to be crippled and hampered by many other stupid things (again, in my opinion) that Microsoft is doing right now that it still won't be that great, other than Revit might run faster for me.

But again, this is just for me, because I do things that either can run on any computer or leverage some of the goodness available on other systems. If all you care about is Microsoft, then you'd probably not be so down about XP64 & Longhorn, like I am. But I'm very much feeling and wishing that Microsoft would either catch up to what the rest of the world is doing, or that I could run Revit (or something like it) on one of those more modern systems so I could get more done, and have it be easier to do. Microsoft, at least right now, is nothing more than something that gets in my way, instead of helping me out in the slightest.

my 2 (bitter, sorry) cents.

[narlee]

Rockwood,

I've been looking at the Sager Notebooks, which sounds like the one you're getting. Is that correct?

Geof.

[rookwood]

Jeffrey,

First let me say that you don't need to apologize for being bitter and I certainly am not offended. If I am wrong and you correct me, then I am the better for it. However, we apparently have very different opinions I believe being the result of having vastly different perspectives.

It sounds as if you have access to environments beyond Windows. I don't, and like 95% of the computer community live in a total Windows world. I can't leverage, as you can, the 'goodies' available on other systems when Windows doesn't want to play the way I want it to. I am, therefore, harnessed and limited by the evolution of Windows and Windows alone.

Being totally ignorant about the Apple OS, I read 2 reviews today (ZDNet and AnandTech) and BOTH report it to be a minor upgrade not even worthy of the $129 cost. Contrary to Apple's claims of "200 new features," Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger includes only two major new features, Spotlight and Dashboard, and both were clearly influenced by other existing products and services. If I want widgets on my desktop (Dashboard) I will stay with Stardock. I am not MAC oriented, but I understand that Apple's OS is rock solid and outstanding. However, this is not an option I have available to me.

It is my understanding that AMD was the bride left standing at the altar when they came out with the 64's 2 years ago. Microsoft decided to bed with Intel at AMD's expense and, ultimately, Intel's gain. I have to believe that AMD, like most everyone else, will spend their research dollars following Microsoft. They may have released them for the Linux market but developed them for 64 bit computing in general and in hopes of coinciding with the release of WindowsXP 64.

I have no clue whether x64 will be a larger or smaller jump than x32 was to x16. I was just saying that the reviews today regarding x64 are virtually identical to those written 5 years ago about x32...difficult install, shortage of driver support, shortage of software support, etc., etc., etc.

Time will only tell if Microsoft is 'doing the jump right'. Without argument, Microsoft will have a much more difficult task of getting adequate support and compliance for the new x64 OS. But it would be unfair to compare them with anyone else. An example is Apples's perceived readiness and success in this area. Testing of any Windows OS with the enormous array of mixed/matched components and permutations of hardware and software is vastly more difficult than Apple's task of testing for its own little world of approved configurations.

WindowsXP 64 is not the only one out there and it will be up to Microsoft if they want to be the best one out there. But, as I said, Windows is the only option which is viable for me and the vast majority of computer users. As such, the release of WindowsXP 64 (buggy or not) is encouraging and, in my opinion, HUGE.

But cheer up. There is hope for Microsoft after all. This week, Bill Gates acknowledged the existence of LINUX!

Your comment "other than Revit might run faster for me" is interesting. Isn't that the answer to the question that started this thread?

[rookwood]

Rockwood,

I've been looking at the Sager Notebooks, which sounds like the one you're getting. Is that correct?

Geof.

Geof:

The notebook I am leaning towards, if I stray from Dell, is the Clevo D900T barebones. I would probably opt to purchase from Hypersonic or Boxx, because they have experience in building workstation computers.

However, the Sager 9860 is identical and cheaper. The major difference between the resellers is the P4 processors they offer. Some cannot be configured with the Intel P4 660 EM64T but Sager just added it along with the nVidia Quadro FX 1400 Go graphics card.

The links below are operated by PCTorque, one of the largest Sager resellers. Good info on most major notebook computers. PCTorque has great tech support, warranty and a dead pixel policy. Also, they sell the unit only with the 1680 x 1050 17" screen because they believe there are presently too many issues with the higher resolution screen. I think it is the same screen Dell is using on their Inspiron XPS Gen 2 where many users are complaining about the dirty off white screen and disturbing sparkles.

http://notebookforums.com/
http://www.pctorque.com/

Good luck!

[FK]

About Longhorn... the thing is, XP does what it does and there is little motivation to upgrade. So Longhorn has to be incredibly better to provide that motivation. But if it's different enough, people might as well jump to OS X, or elsewhere. So it has to be incredibly the same.

About these 3x and 10x numbers... they don't make sense. Hardware roughly follows Moore's law: transistor density doubles every 18 months. There is no evidence that this is going to accelerate.

[rookwood]

About Longhorn... the thing is, XP does what it does and there is little motivation to upgrade. So Longhorn has to be incredibly better to provide that motivation. But if it's different enough, people might as well jump to OS X, or elsewhere. So it has to be incredibly the same.

About these 3x and 10x numbers... they don't make sense. Hardware roughly follows Moore's law: transistor density doubles every 18 months. There is no evidence that this is going to accelerate.


Jeez, what time is it in your part of the world? I thought I was the only goof out there doing forums at this time of day (or night)!

Here's a portion of an article I read this week where I got the information:

"Speaking at the Intel Developer Forum, Pat Gelsinger, co-leader of Intel’s Digital Enteprise Group, said that we would see 10X performance improvements over the next four years, compared to 3X in the last four years, driven by multiple cores and parallelism. "By the end of the decade, the mainstream client will have up to 8 threads per core and servers up to 32 threads per core. To utilize the capabilities you have to think differently about delivering applications." Today, x86-based client systems deliver two threads, and servers eight threads per processor.

I talked to Gartner’s Martin Reynolds about the impact of dual- and multicore processors, as well software and hardware virtualization technologies. His take is that by mid-2006, the industry will experience the biggest single performance increase ever for many applications. "Word and Excel don’t matter–but for video editing, dealing with Acrobat documents, simulations and applications with a workstation heritage, the performance boost will be significant. He also said it will be important for Microsoft, especially for Avalon, the next-generation Windows presentation and graphics engine, which is slated to become available sometime next year."

And the website:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=1099

As for Longhorn, personally I'm not as excited about it as I am about the new WindowsXP 64 released this week. For my use, I believe XP 64 and Avalon will have a larger impact on the performance boost I am looking for. I do think, however, that, if successful, Longhorn will bring to the table the masses, which in turn will bring in greater support from third party vendors, which in turn helps us all. For all the obvious reasons, I find it difficult to believe people will 'jump ship'. There is such an enormous investment in the corporate and private sectors in Windows based hardware/software that jumping ship would be inconceivable. As I said to Jeffrey earlier, the overwhelming majority of us are so embedded in Windows that there is virtually no foreseeable way out.

[GuyR]

About Longhorn... the thing is, XP does what it does and there is little motivation to upgrade. So Longhorn has to be incredibly better to provide that motivation

Come on Fedor, for many win2000 was adequate. MS withdraw support for XP and large companies will have no choice but to upgrade, or find an alternative.

Guy

[narlee]

Thanks, Rockwood. I'm all over that. It's funny, but in comparing the bechmarks in notebookforums, it seems like the Dell centrinos were running with the Sager 9860, but it gets so confusing with all the variables, and I'm a novice when it comes to advanced topics (for instance, the discussion you and Jeffrey are having makes my head spin!).

Regarding Dell's Gen XPS 2, that's listed as a different screen and the WUGA resolution, not the one Sager has. Personally, just from looking at the screens in CompUSA, the higher res screen is too much - I need reading glasses for it!. I'm satisfied with 1680x1050.

But I’m most intrigued by the 64-bit capability of the 660 processor. I had noticed that PC’s for Everyone was advertising 4GB of RAM on their version of what looks like the NP 9860. THAT, I’m very interested in for rendering purposes. I asked them about it. They actually are advertising it but are not selling it yet because of the well-known config (or system recogize) issue (this going on a few months now of advertising the capability but not having it!). I asked them if it was a software thing and got no response, but I suppose they were waiting for the Windows 64-bit to solve the issue. We’ll see what happens now with the NP9860 and it’s clones.

[rookwood]

Regarding Dell's Gen XPS 2, that's listed as a different screen and the WUGA resolution, not the one Sager has. Personally, just from looking at the screens in CompUSA, the higher res screen is too much - I need reading glasses for it!. I'm satisfied with 1680x1050.

But I’m most intrigued by the 64-bit capability of the 660 processor. I had noticed that PC’s for Everyone was advertising 4GB of RAM on their version of what looks like the NP 9860. THAT, I’m very interested in for rendering purposes. I asked them about it. They actually are advertising it but are not selling it yet because of the well-known config (or system recogize) issue (this going on a few months now of advertising the capability but not having it!). I asked them if it was a software thing and got no response, but I suppose they were waiting for the Windows 64-bit to solve the issue. We’ll see what happens now with the NP9860 and it’s clones.

narlee;

The Dell screen is a 17" WUGA with a 16:10 Aspect Ratio, 1920 x 1200 Native Resolution and a glossy surface (TrueLife). The reason Sager lists a different screen is that they will not sell the 9860 with the 1920 x 1200 resolution. This may not be all bad, at least for me. I have had my Dell Inspiron 8500 with a 15.4" 1920 x 1200 screen for two years and really enjoy the extra 20% real estate I can view. However, the payback is decreased text size and I find myself getter closer and closer to the screen as time goes by. Also, the glossy screen will present glare issues for use in a lot of situations. Looks great but in offices with high levels of lighting, outdoors, etc. it may not be the most practical choice.

The P4 is my real dilemma and the reason I have posted in the hardware sub forum. It appears that many are having reasonable success with the P M processor. But they may be content because they have other hardware available to them when they do their serious rendering, whereas I don't and rendering time is total down time for me. Unfortunately, most all P4 notebooks are bricks and have absolutely no form factor whatsoever. Put a P4 lappie next to a streamlined P M (XPS Gen2, SONY VAIO, ASUS) and UGH!!! Really UGH!!! Even the custom automotive paint jobs offered by Alienware and Voodoo can't help them. But I suppose all mothers luv their children.

In all probability, I will end up with the Clevo D900T from either Hypersonic or Boxx. The 9860 Sager from PCTorgue would be a good selection also, but most of their expertise is in gaming. I didn't like their response when I asked why they didn't offer 4GB RAM. "Well you can buy it and we'll install it, but it's a waste of money because Windows only recognizes 2.78GB". Now that's really looking ahead, isn't it. The main reason for choosing the P4 660 EM64T is that the EM64T tag is the setup for 64 bit computing, whereas the 5xx series of P4's are not x64 capable.

Look at the FUSION EX7 from Hypersonic and the 2200 from BOXX. Both are the same Clevo unit as the Sager 9860. Hypersonic is better known for quality game machines with a decent line of workstations and BOXX only builds workstations. And by all means call both Hypersonic and BOXX and ask a lot of "WHYS" and "WHY NOTS". You'll get good advice and you don't but from them. You will pay more, but you get the workstation expertise and knowledge in getting the internals to function as a workstation should. If you are on a limited budget, lean towards the Sager. However, I am in the enviable position of needing a new computer that will make a great deal of money for my company so $5,500 - $7,000 is not an issue and I can pay the premium for the expertise Hypersonic and BOXX offers.

http://www.boxxtech.com/
http://www.hypersonic-pc.com/2001/index.asp

[hand471037]

Being totally ignorant about the Apple OS, I read 2 reviews today (ZDNet and AnandTech) and BOTH report it to be a minor upgrade not even worthy of the $129 cost. Contrary to Apple's claims of "200 new features," Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger includes only two major new features, Spotlight and Dashboard, and both were clearly influenced by other existing products and services. If I want widgets on my desktop (Dashboard) I will stay with Stardock. I am not MAC oriented, but I understand that Apple's OS is rock solid and outstanding. However, this is not an option I have available to me.

Now, I understand that you don't care about OS X because your not using it at all and have no plans to. That I totally see as being true, and please don't think I'm harping on you or saying you shouldn't use what works for you.

I personally, however, disagree with both the statements that 10.4 is a minor upgrade, and that it's new feature sets are simply 'taken' from other people (and it sounds like you're implying Microsoft). No offense, but you need to get out more, and read some other reviews. There are several new features (System Automaton is a huge one- Pipes for Desktop applications!) within 10.4 that are totally new to the desktop users, or while the idea of it isn't (good computer-wide searching) their implementation of it is (Spotlight is very different from the similar-planned thing for Longhorn). Now, this is all moot, for you don't use OS X. But pointlessly bashing it from simply reading 2 reviews and never actually seeing or using the product is a little silly IMHO.


They may have released them for the Linux market but developed them for 64 bit computing in general and in hopes of coinciding with the release of WindowsXP 64.

Again, I disagree. AMD wouldn't have made a processor to simply sit on for two year while they waited for MS to get into gear. The vast majority of AMDs sold are used in production Linux servers and desktops. However, you probably don't come into contact with folks who use that kinda hardware, so you might not be aware of that. I've got several friends in San Jose who have been running nothing but AMD + Linux, and some of them are system admins for major online companies. So all I'm saying here is that there's a whole other world out there for AMD's 64-bit (and now Intel's too) that simply has nothing to do with Windows, and it's actually a very large market too, so AMD didn't 'make' their stuff for Windows- again, Windows is the last to the table here.

And, from what I hear, there are some technical details they are getting wrong that are going to make it not as good as it could be when XP64 finally comes out.

And, finally, the future is Distributed and Multi-core, IMHO. These are areas that Windows and Microsoft in general has been really weak in, and I have yet to see anything like I've seen on the Linux & OS X sides even being to address the potential there.

One example, in OS X, it's got a combo of Grid Computing and Automatic Network hook-up functionality. So, I can quite literally, simply tell my OS X computers to join the Grid by clicking a single checkbox, and then tell my applications that the Grid is there, and now all my computers in my office will share the load automatically for any application that can benefit, and will throttle said usage so that all the other folks in the office don't even notice when their spare cycles are being used in the background for a Rendering or something. This is real, and can be done today. It's *possible* for Windows, but no automatic or simply built-into the OS.


Your comment "other than Revit might run faster for me" is interesting. Isn't that the answer to the question that started this thread?

Revit isn't the only thing I use, and it's the only reason I still use Windows. I see no benefits in upgrading to whatever the next Windows thing is, for it doesn't sound like it's going to empower me in any way to be able to do more than I can today, it only sounds like it might let me do the same stupid things I do and can't do with Windows today, only a little faster. That's a hard thing for me to get excited about, really, when I can today do a lot of really neat things using these other systems, and they are being enhanced in ways that actually do empower me and let me do more.

P.S. the Sagers are nice. I had a 4080. They aren't that great as a laptop however. Mine developed stress cracks at the screen hinge from being constantly moved around and opened and closed, and had to go back in for repair. The battery life was an hour, and I had to carry an additional stand around with me to place it on so it didn't cook itself. The fans on the bottom are a major pain. Now that I've got the Dell Centrino instead, it's actually much nicer. However, with all of that said, it was very very fast, very stable, and great for 3D and Revit. Just giving a heads up that the Sagers are more 'moble workstations' and definitely not 'laptops'. And a great deal, for you get a lot of bang for your buck with them, but they are a lot more fragle than a Thinkpad or Dell Precision ;-)

[rookwood]

Now, I understand that you don't care about OS X because your not using it at all and have no plans to. That I totally see as being true, and please don't think I'm harping on you or saying you shouldn't use what works for you.

I personally, however, disagree with both the statements that 10.4 is a minor upgrade, and that it's new feature sets are simply 'taken' from other people (and it sounds like you're implying Microsoft). No offense, but you need to get out more, and read some other reviews. But pointlessly bashing it from simply reading 2 reviews and never actually seeing or using the product is a little silly IMHO.

Again, I disagree. AMD wouldn't have made a processor to simply sit on for two year while they waited for MS to get into gear. The vast majority of AMDs sold are used in production Linux servers and desktops. However, you probably don't come into contact with folks who use that kinda hardware, so you might not be aware of that.


You couldn't be more wrong about me. First, it is not that I "don't care" about OS X. Like I said, I know nothing about OS X, or Apple, and because I don't use OS X doesn't mean I don't like it. In fact, if I were into graphic design as a profession, I more than likely would be using it.

I don't "bash" anything I know nothing about, pointlessly or otherwise.

My comments were taken from reviews I read in an attempt to understand your point of view.

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/macosx_tiger.asp
http://anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2404

Excerpts from the reviews (and the authors are huge MAC fans and users):

"...Described by Apple as "a super-modern operating system" and "the newest major release of the world’s most advanced operating system," Tiger will, in Apple's words, "change the way you use a computer." That, of course, is completely untrue. Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger" is, in fact, a minor upgrade to an already well-designed and rock-solid operating system...

"But I have to find it difficult recommending a product that's clearly unfinished, and clearly not without bugs. None of the bugs that I encountered were show stoppers, but I'm not one to support pre-release products that are being shipped as final. So if you're expecting a perfect user experience with Tiger, you'll be close but not quite there. I'm hoping the 10.4.1 update fixes all of my issues, but for now don't expect a flawless $129 experience."

Agreed, AMD wouldn’t have made a processor to simply sit on for two year(s)…they didn’t. Microsoft just hung them out. Agreed again, but AMD had the product, was dressed and had no other party to go to. Please consider this quote written 2 years ago from Bink.nu on September 5, 2003:

“…Of the companies who have taken on the challenge of moving to 64-bit thus far (Intel, Sun, and Alpha), all have all been limited case scenarios. The companies have developed 64-bit processors specifically for usage in servers and high-end workstations, where the limited hardware and software that is compatible with their processors isn't much of an issue, as they are looking at a very targeted user base.
AMD's move to 64-bit processing is much more challenging, as they are targeting home users, gamers, and everyday business folks. In these markets, the amount of software, drivers, and subsequent headaches rises by leaps and bounds. AMD's goal is to succeed where all of its competitors have failed, and succeeding in this goal not only requires flawless execution of the 64-bit hardware, but cooperation from some of the biggest names in the industry as well. There's little doubt that the key player in this equation is Microsoft, whose release of Windows XP for AMD64 will be the litmus test to see if the world is ready to accept AMD's take on 64-bit computing, or if the platform will be headed for obscurity."

Again I have to agree. I don’t come into contact with those folks.

I didn't quite say "that it's new feature sets are simply 'taken' from other people (and it sounds like you're implying Microsoft)." The fact is Spotlight is a hybrid of what Apple developed for their iPod. As for Dashboard, now that is a completely different animal and it sounds as if you are aware of the claims against Apple by Arlo Rose, who co-developed Konfabulator. There should be legal action taken by Konfabulator's creators against Apple on this one. Regardless, I am not big on these types of applets being part of the OS. I would rather opt for third party vendor offerings who, I believe, inherently do it better. And being a fan of Stardock, I do. NOBODY, in my opinion, will ever do this stuff better. DesktopX, Dashboard, WindowBlinds, etc. are incredible products. Microsoft had nothing to do with either of these, but from what I have heard, Longhorn's Desktop Search will be further reaching than Spotlight.

PS: Was your Sager 4080 a Clevo unit? The Clevo D900T (Sager 9860) is a 12# monster, so I should check out the stress/hinge issue. Thanks Jeff for the heads up. I'm not too concerned about the portability or the battery life. Work>plug in; Travel>Plug in; Home>Plug in. That's about it. Thanks again.

[narlee]

Thanks for the tips, Rockwood. Best luck on your purchase. I'll let you know how mine goes.

Geof Narlee.

[hand471037]

"...Described by Apple as "a super-modern operating system" and "the newest major release of the world’s most advanced operating system," Tiger will, in Apple's words, "change the way you use a computer." That, of course, is completely untrue. Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger" is, in fact, a minor upgrade to an already well-designed and rock-solid operating system...

Hmm, well I can see that to someone using 10.3 that 10.4 isn't going to be that different. Spotlight is going to change the workflow for many, but I think it's an incremental change too.


"But I have to find it difficult recommending a product that's clearly unfinished, and clearly not without bugs. None of the bugs that I encountered were show stoppers, but I'm not one to support pre-release products that are being shipped as final. So if you're expecting a perfect user experience with Tiger, you'll be close but not quite there. I'm hoping the 10.4.1 update fixes all of my issues, but for now don't expect a flawless $129 experience."

Uhh... and this is different from Longhorn how?

Look, I'm not saying that Tiger is Perfect. At all. But it's a lot better than anything I've got on the Windows or Linux side of things, and that's all I'm saying.

The only other thing I'm saying is that I, personally, am rather disappointed at Microsoft for never really providing me with tools of value, but instead just being something that's at best not in my way of getting things done, and at worse a major pain and cost. And it's the same in regards to 64-bit computing. Had Revit been ported to Linux or OS X, we all could have been using 64-bit systems with 8 gigs of Ram for the last year and a half or more; instead we *just now* are getting only Windows as 64-bit, Revit's nowhere near being made 64-bit too, and I'm steering well clear of XP64 until there's at least a SP1 for it. ;-)


The fact is Spotlight is a hybrid of what Apple developed for their iPod.

You know, I own an iPod. And a Mac (several, actually). I'm buying Tiger this week. I saw and used Tiger months ago at Macworld. To put it simply, and please don't be offended, but you're totally wrong. If you get the chance to use it, please do, and you'll see what I mean.


As for Dashboard, now that is a completely different animal and it sounds as if you are aware of the claims against Apple by Arlo Rose, who co-developed Konfabulator. There should be legal action taken by Konfabulator's creators against Apple on this one.

Huh? I get the feeling here that you're simply repeating lots of stuff you've read elseware about these things. You ever used Dashboard? Or Konfabulator? Or did you just read an article that talked about how the guy was suing Apple?


And being a fan of Stardock, I do. NOBODY, in my opinion, will ever do this stuff better. DesktopX, Dashboard, WindowBlinds, etc. are incredible products. Microsoft had nothing to do with either of these, but from what I have heard, Longhorn's Desktop Search will be further reaching than Spotlight.

I've tried a couple different 'docks for Windows' and haven't found one that even comes close. I'll have to give this 'Stardock' a try as well, thanks for the tip.

And Longhorn's search, from what I've heard, is not as far reaching and isn't realtime search-as-you-type ala Spotlight. But let's compare them to each other directly... oh wait... we can't... for Spotlight's out right now, and Longhorn isn't.

Look, Microsoft has played this game before. They respond to competition sometimes by hyping that there *next* version of whatever it is that people make is going to both fix all the problems while being WAY better than whatever it is that someone else is doing that their users want. And it never really turns out that way. Why would I expect things to be any different now? Longhorn's Search is getting a lot of hype, but it's not even a Beta yet, and who knows if it will even work in it's first versions. Your arguing and comparing something that doesn't even exist except as a design to a product that's currently shipping, which is just plain silly. It's like saying that your Pentium 5 is going to be able to beat up the G5 I'm buying....


PS: Was your Sager 4080 a Clevo unit? The Clevo D900T (Sager 9860) is a 12# monster, so I should check out the stress/hinge issue. Thanks Jeff for the heads up. I'm not too concerned about the portability or the battery life. Work>plug in; Travel>Plug in; Home>Plug in. That's about it. Thanks again.

No, it was bought directly from Sager:
http://www.sagernotebook.com/pages/tech_spec.html

and then click on '4080' to see it. It's the smaller thinner one, not the Tank. ;-)

And it was actually petty light and portable for what it was, but I think that had to do with the 15" screen rather than the 17".

But have you ever owned a laptop before? The Sager was my first, and actually I thought that I wouldn't mind the battery life and lack of portability, but in the end it did get to me and I got tired of lugging around the rather heavy power supply, not being able to use it on my lap, not being able to use it on the plane/train/bus... Once you've got a laptop it's hard not to want to use it everywhere, or at least that's what I found out for me, so just fair warning there.

And please, don't think me angry or upset with you. I'm actually enjoying this very much, and thanks for the tip about the Dock thing for Windows. I've wanted one for a while.

[Marek Brandstatter]

Look, Microsoft has played this game before. They respond to competition sometimes by hyping that there *next* version of whatever it is that people make is going to both fix all the problems while being WAY better than whatever it is that someone else is doing that their users want. Yeah Microsoft does this a lot - aren't they bound by the same 'restrictions' that prevent Autodesk from publicly announcing future feature sets?. Microsoft strategically flaunts futureware-vapourware, while we beg and hustle for teasers and tidbits from the Factory! It doesn't add up.

[rookwood]

Jeffrey:

http://www.stardock.com/
http://www.wincustomize.com/

Here are two websites to get you started if interested. The total Stardock package is pretty extensive and allows for complete customization of the desktop and interfaces. Make sure to visit the wincustomize site to see what skinners are doing beyond the normal package. Let me know what you think.

I think this dialog between you and I has just about run its course. No, I am not offended, but going back and forth as we are now is fruitless. It all started with someone wanting to know if Revit and x64 can coexist and should he prepare for x64. Somehow it has become a Microsoft (Windows) vs. the World (OS X) argument and that’s a loser.

I have no axe to grind against Apple whatsoever. However, I believe it unjust to compare the perceived failures of Microsoft and Windows with the successes of Apple and OS X. Read the article I linked in rebuttal to your claim that AMD developed their x64 processors for servers. Just the opposite is true. They developed for the gamers, home-users and everyday Windows based computers and took the opposite approach than did Intel, Sun, etc. who did develop their x64 technology for the very limited server market. It was a much more daunting task for AMD. Such is the case for Microsoft. Apples needs to work properly for only a very limited and proprietary field (<5%). Microsoft has to be compatible with the rest of the world. I dare say we will never see released, on first issue, an OS from Microsoft that we all will have believed was READY.

An earlier thread of mine responded to Fedor's comment that Longhorn had to be "incredibly better" and incredibly the same as WindowsXP.
Whereas I replied: "With regards to your take on Longhorn, I don't know that you will ever see an 'incredibly better' release of any software given todays pressures and subsequent rush to get products to market."
You responded with: "I disagree. The new OS X 10.4 'Tiger' is 'incredibly better' than both 10.3 'Panther' and what it sounds like Longhorn is going to be...."
After I posted quotes from the first two TIGER reviews I read refuting you, you are now saying: "Hmm, well I can see that to someone using 10.3 that 10.4 isn't going to be that different. Spotlight is going to change the workflow for many, but I think it's an incremental change too....Look, I'm not saying that Tiger is Perfect. At all. But it's a lot better than anything I've got on the Windows or Linux side of things, and that's all I'm saying."

At least I can take solace in the fact you now agree with me that nothing is incredibly better, nor is it perfect.

[GuyR]

Yeah Microsoft does this a lot - aren't they bound by the same 'restrictions' that prevent Autodesk from publicly announcing future feature sets?

Can anyone explain this? They're both listed companies. Perhaps it's just Autodesk choose not to.

Guy

[iru69]

Yeah Microsoft does this a lot - aren't they bound by the same 'restrictions' that prevent Autodesk from publicly announcing future feature sets?

Generally speaking, the only "restrictions" on future product announcements are the ones it places on itself. Talk of stock market and fiscal regulatory restrictions are often used as a way to have a policy and not be blamed for it (it's not us, it's them!). There are tons of large, publicly traded technology companies that give road maps and technical details of future products.

While some companies choose to use future products as a marketing tool, others would rather not have the customer scrutiny (and competitor scrutiny and investor scrutiny) that would come with it. If they announce a product or feature ahead of time, and fail to deliver on it, they potentially end up with a lot of dissatisfied customers. If you don't promise anything, you don't have to worry about breaking them.

I would like to see more of a middle ground. I respect that software development is not definitive, and I appreciate that Autodesk would rather not lead us on with unfilled promises. However, I don't think it would be asking too much (or Autodesk risking too much) to lay out (and update) future road maps of their products to let us know at least what features they are most actively working on (and hopefully an opportunity for their customers to help steer that).

[hand471037]

An earlier thread of mine responded to Fedor's comment that Longhorn had to be "incredibly better" and incredibly the same as WindowsXP.

Whereas I replied: "With regards to your take on Longhorn, I don't know that you will ever see an 'incredibly better' release of any software given todays pressures and subsequent rush to get products to market."

You responded with: "I disagree. The new OS X 10.4 'Tiger' is 'incredibly better' than both 10.3 'Panther' and what it sounds like Longhorn is going to be...."

After I posted quotes from the first two TIGER reviews I read refuting you, you are now saying: "Hmm, well I can see that to someone using 10.3 that 10.4 isn't going to be that different. Spotlight is going to change the workflow for many, but I think it's an incremental change too....Look, I'm not saying that Tiger is Perfect. At all. But it's a lot better than anything I've got on the Windows or Linux side of things, and that's all I'm saying."

At least I can take solace in the fact you now agree with me that nothing is incredibly better, nor is it perfect.

Heh. Look man, what I was saying is simply that it's possible for a large computer company to make an OS that is both Incredibly Better and Incredibly the Same. 10.3 vs 10.4 are worlds apart, yet I know that I can put it on my Wife's laptop and she'll not be interrupted in her workflow at all, and will simply be able to do more than she can do today with 10.3. If Apple can do it, why can't Microsoft?

And as for 'refuting' me by posting some links, man, calm down. You've read two reviews about Tiger, and never used it. I own a copy. I could post twenty links here that are very positive about it, and it would prove nothing. You yourself say that this is fruitless, and yet you yourself continue with petty arguments. All I'm saying is that I disagree with you, this isn't political, it's just my opinion, and I personally don't see why you even care.

I was simply offering some counter-examples to yours and stating why I feel very differently than you do about Microsoft's new Windows line. That's it, that's all, and now I'm gonna shut up.

[rookwood]

And as for 'refuting' me by posting some links, man, calm down. You've read two reviews about Tiger, and never used it. I own a copy. I could post twenty links here that are very positive about it, and it would prove nothing. You yourself say that this is fruitless, and yet you yourself continue with petty arguments. All I'm saying is that I disagree with you, this isn't political, it's just my opinion, and I personally don't see why you even care.

Jeffrey, Chill Out! This isn't political, it isn't anything other than a discussion between you and me as to what you know OS X 10.4 is and what I hope WindowsXP 64/Longhorn may be. I posted two links that are very positive about Tiger overall, saying it is an improvement on an already sound OS. They just don't share your opinion that it is "incredibly better" than the previous release, it apparently has bugs and both go out of their way to say they wonder if it is worth the $129 price.

Please try and understand that if someone is unfamiliar with a subject, it is no reason to believe they cannot discuss this subject. I learned many years ago to yield to those who have specific expertise in areas where I had little.

BTW: I've had one Gateway, one custom built and three Dell Inspiron notebook computers. I am familiar with and have been lugging a 10# computer plus peripherals around for several years. But this is what is needed to do my job.

[narlee]

Gentlemen, to your corners!! And...we shall drink to ye and ye. It's zall good in Revittown.

[rookwood]

Gentlemen, to your corners!! And...we shall drink to ye and ye. It's zall good in Revittown.


I shall defer to narlee....and thanks.

[hand471037]

Jeffrey, Chill Out!

Hey, I'm sorry. Please don't take me that seriously, I wasn't ever upset along this thread (until now, actually, see the next line) and I actually hope that Longhorn is all you hope for it to be.


Please try and understand that if someone is unfamiliar with a subject, it is no reason to believe they cannot discuss this subject. I learned many years ago to yield to those who have specific expertise in areas where I had little.

This was rather uncalled for, don't you think? This whole time I've been trying to simply point out what I know about these systems you've never used. Instead of asking me why I use them, or what I do with them, or why I feel the way that I do, or anything, you act the expert and debate, sometimes on things it really doesn't sound (to me) that you know very much about. I mean, you say this, but I don't feel like you mean it, at least from this little debate. Sorry to be so harsh, but man, why do you have such issue with the fact that I'm disappointed with what Microsoft has to offer in regards to OS? Or that I find a lot of value in OS X? I've been learning Visual Basic .Net to start working with the Revit API, and there's something that Microsoft made that's actually very well done in many ways. If you just have to talk about something that's positive about Microsoft, let's talk about that instead, or something.


BTW: I've had one Gateway, one custom built and three Dell Inspiron notebook computers. I am familiar with and have been lugging a 10# computer plus peripherals around for several years. But this is what is needed to do my job.

Oh no! I didn't mean to say that you shouldn't buy the Sager. I loved my Sager. It's a great computer, and I'm certain you're making the best choice to fit your needs. It's just not that portable, and at the time I thought I wouldn't care about it, but in the end I did, and I just wanted to pass that along as a tip if it was your first laptop. But you've owned laptops before, and it sounds like you're more than willing to put up with it's hampered mobility, so please just ignore me. Just trying to help out.

[k.armstrong]

Then of course you could start looking at replacing the "shell" in windows to something more efficient - theres heaps out there and i'm sure it will continue through to 64bit

I haven't done it myself, but from the reading i have done - there seems to be many more efficient ways to manage graphic user interface with a PC

anyway that and most of the end of this thread is way off the title.

So Jeffrey - you have your wishlist in for Revit for Mac?

[rookwood]

Then of course you could start looking at replacing the "shell" in windows to something more efficient - theres heaps out there and i'm sure it will continue through to 64bit


There are several shell replacements out there that seem to do a pretty good job. I, personally, have not had much success with them and, admittedly, not spent as much time with them as I have programs such as Stardock. Stardock doesn't get close to the danger zone as the shell replacements do. Stardock does an excellent job of creating its software to integrate with each other, or function as stand alones.

Jeffrey, I think you misunderstood me as I was referring to myself as relyiing on the expertise of others. You are absolutely correct in that I know nothing of OS X and any comments I made about it were obtained from outside sources I relied on.

[neb1998]

What is Google?


hmmmm What is google?

[Batman]

hmmmm What is google?
W h a t i s t h e M a t r i x ?

[Lashers]

W h a t i s t h e M a t r i x ?
Shhhhh! Be quite! they . .might hear . .I can get you out!

[k.armstrong]

Shhhhh! Be quite! they . .might hear . .I can get you out!
maybe i don't want to get out!!!

[narlee]

If only I'd taken the blue pill, I'd still be using AutoCAD and wouldn't know what it looks like from the outside...

[Batman]

Shhhhh! Be quite! they . .might hear . .I can get you out!
Pt 1 - The Matrix - must have been built by Revit. Can't think of any other Virtual Modeller that could.

Pt 2 - Revit Reloded (V 8.0)

Pt 3 - The Matrix Revit-olutions (V 9.0 and beyond)

[Lashers]

maybe i don't want to get out!!!
Ha ha . .Take the pill! If you get out of the Matrix you can move into the
ReviX - Revit v10!!!??

[Xenon1]

So does Revit 8 run on Windows 64? In either 32 or 64 bit mode?

[neb1998]

REVIT is a 32 bit compliled program. win 64 can run both 32 bit and 64 bit code simutaneously with no performance hits.

For all users running less than 3-4 gig of ram there should be no reason to upgrade to win64.

Win 64 comes down to the ability to address more memory past the 2-3 gig mark.

Until Revit is actually complied and run in a 64 bit native mode we may see no actual benefit.

[rookwood]

So does Revit 8 run on Windows 64? In either 32 or 64 bit mode?

I hope it runs on XP 64. I am about to place an order for a notebook workstation with WindowsXP 64. I assume it will be 32 bit only. Developers don't seem to be in a rush to rewrite their code just yet, unless they are doing it transparently and not advertising.

One option I have, and may well take, is to have the system configured with a dual boot setup.

[neb1998]

it should run fine on winxp64, i am just waiting for the first service pack to be released before i install it on my system. But like i said, unless you are going to be using over 2 gig of ram dont expect any difference in performance.

Any 32 bit program should run on the system