Trying to (Model) Construct a Boat Shape

[artitech]

I left a similar message on the AutoDesk Revit Forum as well, but was hoping I would get an answer here that helps me out more....

I am trying to create the attached building form, it is somewhat like a boat shape. The walls lean outward and the floor plate does not have 90 degree corners. The space terminates in a "prow" and the roof fascia slopes along one side... as per attached sketches.

I am able to get the walls created using an in-place wall family using the modelling "blend" option, but the wall heights are "fixed" and predetermined. I also got a roof shape on it but couldn't get the fascia to slope and couldn't extend the in-place family walls to the underside of the roof.

I also want a portion of the leaning wall to be a curtain wall, so I need the ability to place a curtain wall in it.

Can this be done? In the end, I need to be able to create a simple section through the space and hopefully generate some interior perspectives / isometrics of the resulting space.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[Wes Macaulay]

Check out the attached file which has more or less what you want...

[Andre Baros]

Here is a quick attempt using massing. Maybe a meathod to start.

(edit: Argh, too slow)

[artitech]

Wes,

You amaze me. I will disect the file you sent me, I sure would like to know how you solved it...

Thanks,

C. Stechyshyn

[Scott D Davis]

sure would like to know how you solved it...It uses an in place family sweep for the solid walls. Path is the 'diamond' shape, while the profile is the canted wall. The in-place family walls are cut at the angle of the roof by two voids that are at the plane of the roof faces.

Make sure when you are dissecting Wes' model, that you edit the families, and find how the voids are used to cut geometry. In modeling in Revit, the voids are as important as the solids to create geometry!

[artitech]

Andre,

This is very close to what I'm after, do you mind sharing a few of the steps / commands you used for this?

Thanks,

C. Stechyshyn

[Wes Macaulay]

Andre used the massing tools, then attached a curtain system to the edges of the mass. Scott has pretty much described how I did my version! But here's the steps:

created the in-place wall family (Modeling > Create). It's a sweep
created the roof using the slope arrow to get the roof to slope in the direction desired
went back to the in-place walls and added voids aligned to the bottom of the roof to blow away the walls above the roof
set my Plane to the face of the in-place wall nearest the prow and drew a model line to indicate the top and bottom of the curtain wall
used the curtain system by lines tool and clicked the two lines to create the curtain system
It's rare I find something in the real world that can't be modeled in Revit. Knowing how to do it in Revit takes a few weeks or months. I've got my gold watch from the union now, hey!

[Andre Baros]

short version:
Step 1: Layout rough size with grid lines
Step 2: Create Mass, Solid portion is a Blend with the top profile larger than the bottom. Void Portion is also a Blend, drawn in Elevation on the guide line called "front of mass"
Step 3: Create roof by picking faces (once you shape the mass to exactly what you want, you can separate these from the mass to create the overhangs, alternately, you could copy and scale the mass to have the roof generated by one mass and the walls by another.
Step 4: Create the walls using curtain wall systems. These are just slapped in place and need work.
(this tool is with the other massing tools.)

Hope that helps, let us know what you end up doing and maybe show us how it turns out... this seams like an interesting project!

[artitech]

Thanks for all the help, I will post the final outcome once completed. These forms are part of a much larger building I am designing as part of my architectural thesis. It's a three storey waterfront centre on Lake Superior.

I have another challenge I am trying to resolve dealing with circular wall reveals.... see my latest thread.

Regards,

C. Stechyshyn

[artitech]

Andre,
I tried to replicate the model you created and ran into trouble with the massing-void... I had a few questions thus far;

(1) what is the purpose of grids B2, D1 and D2? What did you use these for?
(2) from the reference plane "front of mass", how do you create the appropriate massing-void? I created the reference plane (front of mass) as you did, but don't understand how to create the massing-void form here... or what the shape of the void is to be exactly. Am I using the void to cut the top of the massing-blend wall off at the underside of the roof? If so, how do I determine where the underside of my roof is before I mass it?

Am I to add the roof massing first?

I'll stop at this step for now until I better understand what you did from here...

Thanks for any help you can continue to provide to guide me through this..

C. Stechyshyn

[artitech]

Wes,
I tried modelling my form using your method (as well as the way Andre suggested) and I have some further questions..

(1) What view did you use to create the wall sweep profile (section, elevation...just curious)?

(2) When you did the roof, what method of placement did you use (footprint, extrusion, face....)?

(3) Is there a good tutorial on creating voids anywhere?

This is as far as I got for now, hope you don't mind the questions as I move along?

Thanks,

C. Stechyshyn

[Andre Baros]

1) The grids were just guides in laying out the mass, rough scale etc. If it were my own project, I would lock the mass to either grid lines or reference planes to make it easier to adjust down the line.
2) To draw the void, I went to the north elevation and started to draw there. When promted, I selected the named reference plane to draw the void on. In elevation I only drew the front and back profiles of the roof, then, after finishing that sketch, I went back to plan to adjust the front to back relationship.

The whole mass is created before the wall or roof, it gives you the overall shape of your building. You could also create it by starting with a mass extrusion of a block and then using voids to carve it into the desired shape. Once your done, you create your walls and roofs from the mass. Later, if you change the mass, each wall and roof has an option to be updated (or not, your choice)

The great thing about massing is that it lets you work on the big formal idea without taking the time to draw all the walls and roofs that you know will be there later but which can bog the process down early on. I use grids to check the scale and important alignments.

Have fun!

[Wes Macaulay]

Wes,
I tried modelling my form using your method (as well as the way Andre suggested) and I have some further questions..

(1) What view did you use to create the wall sweep profile (section, elevation...just curious)?

(2) When you did the roof, what method of placement did you use (footprint, extrusion, face....)?

(3) Is there a good tutorial on creating voids anywhere?

This is as far as I got for now, hope you don't mind the questions as I move along?

Thanks,

C. Stechyshyn1 - I drew the path in plan, and created the profile while in a 3D view
2 - I drew the roof in the site plan (for the higher cut plane) and offset lines from the top of the in-place walls. It's a footprint roof
3 - AUGI is the best reading you'll find. The Revit help menu is rather light on such matters, and I don't know of much in the way ot tutorials

Keep the questions coming...

[artitech]

Wes,
I finally caught on to the slope arrows... somewhat...

I realize now that the model you made as a sample hasn't achieved "one" of the remaining goals that I was after with the roof, and I can't figure out how to do it with your model....

If you look at the South elevation on the model that you made, the horizontal fascia that meets up with the sloping fascia, is also to be sloped. The point where the existing horizontal and sloping fascias meet is the low point, from here, the fascia slopes up in both directions (east and west).

How would you accomplish this?

C. Stechyshyn

[artitech]

Andre,

I don't know why I can't get past this "void", but when I follow your last set of instructions I get to the point where I am drawing the base of the void in the "front of mass" reference plane from the elevation view and as I place my lines I get an error message that reads "none of the created elements are visible in elevation"..

What can I do so that I can see the lines that I am drawing to create the void?

Also, as far as the front and back profiles of the roof you said you drew, these will become the base and top to form the blend, correct?

(The end is near, and I'll get there some day...)

Thanks for helping me work through this.

C. Stechyshyn

[Andre Baros]

Your getting closer...
Usually when "none of the elements created are visible in elevation" it is for two reasons, the type of element your drawing has it's visibility turned off (which you can't do for sketch lines) or the front plane of your elevation is in front of the plane you are using to draw (which happens a lot). Try drawing the void again, this time either use the opposite elevation (if you used north switch to south, if you used east switch to west, etc) or in plan select your elevations and move the blue cut plane outside of the named plane.

And yes, the front and back profiles are the base and top of the blend used for the void.

Keep going... we havn't even gotten to how to make the walls look just right...

[Wes Macaulay]

Wes,
I finally caught on to the slope arrows... somewhat...

I realize now that the model you made as a sample hasn't achieved "one" of the remaining goals that I was after with the roof, and I can't figure out how to do it with your model....

If you look at the South elevation on the model that you made, the horizontal fascia that meets up with the sloping fascia, is also to be sloped. The point where the existing horizontal and sloping fascias meet is the low point, from here, the fascia slopes up in both directions (east and west).

How would you accomplish this?

C. StechyshynSee the attached. Walls angle and roof slope both matter.

[artitech]

Wes,

Yes, Elevatiosn 1a and 1a-1 are what I am trying to acomplish. I see you still used the slope defining arrow for the roof, what did you do different that generates the sloping fascias?

C. Stechyshyn

[Wes Macaulay]

A different slope for the roof... that's all!

[artitech]

A different slope for the roof... that's all!
I see how the slope arrow really plays with the roof geometry - trial and error in this case.

How do you go about aligning the void with the underside of the roof in order to cut off the top of the walls?

It would sure be nice if these walls could attach themselves to the roof or "trim" off at the roof...

These voids are getting the best of me.

C. Stechyshyn

[Wes Macaulay]

In a 3D view, I clicked the Plane tool (top left, just under the save button) and held the mouse over the edge of the roof, on the low edge of the fascia - you'd see it hilite, and then I left-click to select that plane. That sets the working plane to the underside of the roof. Then I drew lines using the pick tool and picked the eaves and centreline, using Trim to get the sketch cleaned up.

Then I dragged the handles on the void to make it large enough to cut away the walls. Then I set the plane to Level 1, and mirrored the void over the roof centreline.

[artitech]

Wes,
Okay, if you aren't tired of helping me with this yet... I have another problem!

I don't understand why, but I follow your steps and things just don't work the way they are supposed to. Here's my problem(s)..

I tried creating my boat shape using in-place sweep, in-place-blend and mass-blend... I got the roof working on all three, I was able to get the massing-void drawn on all three from the underside of the roof plane....and I keep getting this error message:

"A mass must have solid forms to be in the project. Lone void forms in this mass that do not cut anything in the family and must be deleted".

Why am I getting this error? Obviously I've done something wrong....if you could explain it would help me sleep....

I've attached my drawing file again with the three attempts.

Thanks a million.
C. Stechyshyn

[knurrebusk]

I´m still recovering from setting up my 3 Dell XPS-gen 2 laptops, but any effort to model a boat shape, and get a working bim solution needs something like Inventor/Revit.

I´m not sure I can do a complex site even!
Revit is the number one in BIM-building, but needs refinement.

[artitech]

I try to commit my time to AEC softeware that I believe offers our profession a complete solution from schematic design to massing and detailed working drawings.

I am putting my faith into Revit and running it through a complex building massing excercise. I need a program that can resolve all my design challenges, otherwise it's not a useful tool to the design profession and will only hinder the conceptual design process.

If Revit is the one, it needs to be able to provide solutions to "any" building design or technical challenge. In architectural design, the challenges or limitless, so Revit has it's work ahead of it. If the technicalities of using the software gets in the way of the creative process, it will not capture the hearts of the architectural design population.

I've been provided with two sample resolutions for my boat forms thus far, albeit I haven't had success in replicating them yet.... I can see that the software lives up to its challenges, it's just geetting through the technical difficulties of the software that is frustrating the process right now.

Perhaps the issues that I have faced here in this thread are worthy of a "wish list" consideration. We need to be able to have massing forms act similar to walls whereby they can be trimmed, extended and attached to other elements, namely roofs. The massing-void tool needs better documentation and perhaps some refinements to make it more flexible to use. If I could use a roof plane or a reference pane to cut off the top or bottem of a mass, that would be superb!

I have faith in Revit, I just need some time alone with it.....

C. Stechyshyn

[artitech]

Andre,
Just as I thought I had it.... I stumble across another problem with the massing-void.

I can get a void-mass created (although with some difficulty) but I keep getting an error mesage when I try to complete the mass..
" A mass must have solid forms to be in the project. Lone void forms in this mass tat do not cut anything and must be deleted".

I can view the resulting mass-void that I have created in several views and see that it actually does cut off the top of the wall mass that I am trying to cut, but.. no can do!

Any thoughts? I've got to get past this.... I have the rest of the building to finish.... and the site!

C. Stechyshyn

[Andre Baros]

C.
Each mass element is an amalgamation of one or more solid and void forms. You have to create the solid mass blend which will be the walls and the void blend which will guide the roof as part of the same mass element. You could keep adding additional solid and void elements to get your final result, just as long as you have at least one solid in the end.

I'm glad to see your positive additude to Revit. I understand the desire to test the software through the creation of complex forms, but don't forget that the learning curve involved in making Revit work is nothing compared to the learning curve to get a complex building to work. Any software lets you draw a cool shape, very few help you make it buildable, and no software will ever take the place of thinking through a project.

[artitech]

Andre,
Thanks for the response to my last post - but can you shed any light on the error message that I am getting, what is causing it?

I'm getting the solid and void thing, but for some reason it's not working (see error message).???

C. is for Cory, by the way.

Always, thanks.

Cory

[Wes Macaulay]

Two things to note here:

In place families are a group of solids and voids. You've probably noticed the change in Revit's UI when you enter family editing mode. I just helped someone use an in place family to model some heavy timber beams. We went to a section, drew the side profile of the beam and extruded.

To copy the beam around the project, we did it while we were still in family editing mode. If we had finished the family and started to copy them around, we would see multiple instances of the family listed under Families in the Project Browser, which is of course not the desired result. When the user mouses over one of the beams, all of them hilight because Revit considers them all one object.

If you're cutting the walls with voids, your best bet is to edit the in place wall family (select the in-place family - a small Edit button will appear above the drawing area) and ADD a void to it. Then the walls will be cut automatically. Otherwise, if the voids are in a different family, you'll need the Cut Geometry tool to indicate to Revit that the void is meant to cut the walls outside of this family. And if you don't do this, the voids may not be cutting anything and hence your error.

Does this help?

[Andre Baros]

Right, from your error message, it sounds like your trying to create a seperate solid mass and void mass. You need to create a solid and then create the void before you finish the solid.

(like Wess said)

[artitech]

Wes / Andre,

That must be it.... I never knew to make the void within the same family as the solid (mass), so this is likely why I am getting the error. I tried the "cut geometry" tool during my attempts but it would not select any geometries... not the way I was trying to do it anyway. So I will add the void within the same family as my solid-mass. Whew. I'll be glad once I get the hang of all these new commands (REVIT). I've used AutoCAD for 18 years (not much modelling though) and it's like learning to walk again for me....

I find your comment interesting regarding inserting the heavy timber beam while in family mode... I have been doing the contrary and copying a family around my drawing...other than the multiple instances of the same family, what is the main drawback of copying them? As I understand, modifying the family and reloading it will update all instances of it in the drawing, correct?

Hopefully I get through to completing the walls (cladding and curtain wall) without having to bother you guys again...hopefully. I'll send you my finishes product to see.

If either of you have a moment, I have a thread in the "Families" section of this group titled "Wood Column Family not Shading Properly in Plan View". I am baffled (again) why I can't get the "grey-tone" I have set in my family in cut view to show on my floor plan where I have inserted it. I found the "cut-plane" needed to be adjusted in the family, reloaded it into my drawing and nothing changed... it shades the colour of my column surface (orange-wood) instead? Others said they can insert it in Revit 8.0 and it comes in grey... I can't figure this one out either and it should be so simple.

Should be...

I've said a mouthful again, I hope you have a moment to answer / comment on a few of my comments above...

I have to get a Tender out now...

Thanks,
Cory Stechyshyn

[Wes Macaulay]

I find your comment interesting regarding inserting the heavy timber beam while in family mode... I have been doing the contrary and copying a family around my drawing...other than the multiple instances of the same family, what is the main drawback of copying them? As I understand, modifying the family and reloading it will update all instances of it in the drawing, correct?

I was talking about an in place family... if you copy that around the project when you're not in family editing mode, you get multiple copies of the family showing up in the project browser! Loaded (so-called component familes with the .rfa extension) families don't do this, so there's no problem doing this.

[artitech]

I want to thank Wes and Andre for all their help with this thread. I have successfully now constructed the boat shape and have learned some valuable lessons in Revit. It is a powerful tool, but will take me a few projects to get the hang of it. It's like a game of clue, you never know what is hidden inside all the commands!

Now on to the rest of the project. This boat form is repeated four times in various orientations on one side of the overall building.... I now need to put a standing seam metal roof on it, wall materials and then plug it onto my main building four times....

If I have any problems further on, I'll post it as a new thread.

Thanks Guys!