Revit 6.0 comments

[Chad Smith]

First up, a big thanks to the Revit Team for the time and effort that they put in. But I have to say that I was some what disappointed with this release.

8) Things I like and would use:
1. Dimension snaps (Love it)
2. Change temp dims to permanent
3. Split level plan view range (Love it)
4. Browser Organisation
5. Stair enhancements
6. Ellipses

:evil: Things I don't like:
1. The interface is still the same. This could be improved so much more. Commands and options are all over the place, and is ridiculous how much you have to move the mouse to get a set of commands finished, especially on a large, high res monitor. The distance between your work space, across to the left to the design bar and then up to the top for the options bar it a lot of work.
2. Property Lines: Still the same, having to enter angles into quadrants. I'm not sure if thats how its done in the states, but I don't know one person here that does it that way. This then makes the all new property tag useless. If I gave a plan to builder that had property boundaries like N24°00'00"E he'd ask me WTF it meant, and sure enough the local council authority probably wouldn't even accept it. I was really looking forward to an improvement here.
3. Still using Accurender. Come on Autodesk, Accurender is ****, get with your own products and upgrade to VIZ / VIZRender.
4. Design Options: Nothing more than a "Layer Manager", or "Object Manager" in Revit's case.
5. Colours in elevations are still as before, they are still based on a light source. It would have been nice to have them looking the same as defined in the materials and not based on a light source.
6. Small stuff like not being able to snap to a quadrant of a circle/arc or to text. A scale and area tool would also be handy for 2D details.

I know they can't put every suggestion in, but apart from the small things in my likes list above there really wasn't much in it that appealed to me and could be of benefit, that's to do presentation/concept drawings.

OK, I'm going to go run away now. Be back when the flames die down.

[Steve_Stafford]

Give it some time Chad. Perhaps you are right about some features but I suspect once you get into a project and start to really use them you might find some more satisfaction than you expect at the moment.

Some stuff is better suited to the US market perhaps, sorry about that, we're bigger whiners than youz guyz. But then you have it easier than us with that metric thingy...no feets and inchez to get all confused over.

Enjoy what you can and keep your wishes coming...there's another new release strategy organizing right now behind their closed doors since they kicked 6.0 out...they don't take breaks, that's when the competition steals your lunch. :D

[ashleycox]

Just thinking about your comments on the interface. Surely the idea is to maximise the drawing area? :?: Realistically, I see the interface as being very similar to AutoCAD, the main difference being (as far as the "distance" moving around goes) is that the design bar (or the bars within it) aren't able to float.

Maybe this is something that could be discussed - the possibility of having "floatable" design bar sections? Personally, I don't see it as necessary, mainly because the commands are pretty much grouped in the order we tend to use them. Perhaps an option to re-sort them to your liking, as has been done with the project browser?

[GuyR]

IMO there was one reason for V6, getting worksets and groups working properly. There was clearly some issues with V5 reading the messages over the last year.

I suspect this was a major task. Now they've knocked this on the head just imagine what's next:-)

Regarding UI. Are you using keyboard shortcuts? minimises moving around for me.

Guy

[Chad Smith]

Regarding UI. Are you using keyboard shortcuts? minimises moving around for me.
Yeah, but Revit shortcuts can only do so much.
One thing I loved about using AutoCAD/ADT was the command line. Since you use the same commands dozens/hundreds of times each day, you get to remember the options for the commands, so you can run through them very quickly.
This meant that you could leave your hand on the mouse which stays in the same place in your work space and all the options are at your fingertips.
When I was using AutoCAD, I could start a command enter the parameters, draw on the screen, all without having to look at the keyboard or the command line. I think that is about a quick as your going to get for command entry.
It's all about speed and not having to waste time navigating your mouse around the screen.

[GuyR]

Chad,


Since you use the same commands dozens/hundreds of times each day, you get to remember the options for the commands, so you can run through them very quickly.

Fair comment , unless you're a new User. Nothing is obvious about commands when using the command line I do think they could take more advantage of the right-click context menu.I very much doubt we will ever see a command line in Revit.

Or how about a spaceball with the extra keys. That would be cool.

Guy

[gregcashen]

You do realize that when you draw a wall in Revit, it is actually a wall...and that it is drawn in every other view automatically...at that instant?

I mean, sure, maybe autocad has faster command entry, but I actually relish the fact that I no longer have to give myself carpal tunnel zipping my mouse all over the place and typing in commands all the time and I can still get more done in WAY less time. Sure, it would be nice if they improved some entry methods (which they did this time around, by the way) but I surely wouldn't trade that for improved stairs and railings, worksets, etc.

By the way, you do realize that on the one hand you are applauding the autocad command line and then lambasting Revit for having a design options feature that is a rip-off of autocad's layer manager?

I guess someone's always gonna be unhappy. Not me!!

[irwin]

4. Design Options: Nothing more than a "Layer Manager", or "Object Manager" in Revit's case.

Are you saying that the new Design Options capability won't help you evaluate the kind of design alternative that you are dealing with? If so, it would be helpful if you can give some examples.

[Chad Smith]

I can't see myself using the Design Options a great deal if at all.
What I was trying to say, was that there isn't a lot of new features that I would use, and in my opinion would have preferred the Revit Dev Team time be spent else where.

[JamesVan]

Chad,

What do you do in your practice? I understand that everyone has their own methodologies, but not to see a potential opportunity in the Design Options tool? I'd appreciate your time if you could share with us how you work with Revit and in what ways it does not fit your processes.

[Steve_Stafford]

Not to diminish what Chad is saying, but I know of a large production home firm that said Revit "couldn't" fly for them as long as they couldn't do design options.

They design homes that have several different facade options and they need to be able to produce a documentation set of House style A with facade option 3. Without this new feature, Revit couldn't satsify their needs elegantly.

So while I accept that Chad doesn't think it'll be of use to him, I'm also comfortable in my own experience and that of others that it will fit right into many firms quite nicely.

[Scott Hopkins]

Design options rock! They are truly god sent. I anticipate that it will take a little more management on the front end to use them effectively but I think the benefits will be great. My practice is very design oriented. Yes, I also use Revit to crank out working drawings but for me design is always the driving factor. Perhaps if all I did was pump out bathroom and flashing details then I might think the design options tool was not important.

[hand471037]

The design options are a huge deal to some. Just three months ago I had to do some prelim design options for an exterior, four different canopies on an existing building. This would have saved me a lot of headache, for I had to use phases instead, which isn't as elequent.

Other things that will be put into *immedate* use here are the editable color fill legends (thanks guys!), the formulas in schedules (huge thanks!), and the phased rooms (a huge help)... But I doubt anyone here, other than me when modeling furniture, will use the ellipse tools, or the fancy new stair tools.

It's always a mixed bag of who needs what, heck, I wish that two of my big items, the ability to have shared perameters reference information outside of Revit (to allow for two-way database connections) and the ability to export via material (like 3DS or something, to vastly simplfy taking a Revit model and bringing it into any other 3D rendering package) weren't incorpirated in 6.0 at all... :cry:

[Chad Smith]

I agree with what you are saying Steve, and I'm sure the DO feature would benefit a lot of people.

In our company, I am the only person that works with the sales manager to bring in new work. The level of detail that is required to win the jobs varies significantly from basic 'mud map' type plans to full blown 3D renderings.
As soon as the contract is won, the job leaves my hands and is given to another draftee using AutoCAD and any further changes are done there.
I know that it would be quicker for me to make any changes to the drawings before converting it to AutoCAD, but they work on the principal that it's better to get me off jobs that we have won and to start getting new work, rather than wasting time changing drawings on jobs we have won and let future ones slip by.
Because we are in the commercial industry and not residential, most of our clients are more concerned with the process of how their company will flow with the new building, not how it looks. This means that we don't do a great deal with the look of the building in the design stage, but usually after it gets given to the 2D draftsman. If a building design changes, it is usually a complete overhaul, and is quicker to wipe the slate clean and start again.
I'm sure that I would use the DO feature but only on a very small percentage of jobs, these would be the client's won't sign the contract until they know what their building will look like, usually as a rendering. In which case I have gone back to using ADT with VIZ because a Revit / VIZ duo doesn't work too well.
I know that this process is not the most efficient, but management refuses to upgrade all users to Revit just yet, and probably won't for the next 2 years at least.
Out current process does work, and with the extremely quick fast-track business methodology that our company uses, it manages to push through quite a lot of jobs each year.

[Steve_Stafford]

I bet if we met I'd see a distinct twitch in your manner now that I know that you watch what you do in Revit get redrawn in 2D Autocad...you'd think those bosses would pay more attention to the "gross" inefficiency in that step BACK...sad that they won't or haven't yet. Here's to being very virtuous Chad, you must have the proverbial patience of a Saint!

I've seen some very good examples recently of how retailers are planning to create a master project with all building options so that "all" that is left to do is place it on a site and choose the correct bldg configuration via design options. Of course they have the luxury of working for themselves so to speak, not a flurry of different clients with different needs. Perhaps if you have some repeat customers that are similar you could "sell" the concept and see some progress sooner.

Good luck!

[Chad Smith]

It usually doesn't bother me when the Revit files are exported to AutoCAD. I just keep telling myself that it's the bosses problem, he pays the bills and it's his loss not mine.

But.... there are the rare times when I put a hell of a lot of time into a job. These proposal drawings have plans, elevations, 3D's, section, cut-aways, and all in colour and they look great, then it gets exported to AutoCAD and it just breaks your heart to see it happen.

It's like taking a piece of artwork off a wall and walking all over it.

[Steve_Stafford]

What twitch you say? That one, and that and that one there...there it is again! Does it hurt? Course not, you don't even know your doing it... :evil: Well, eventually they'll catch on, keep the faith!

[mlgatzke]

Chad,

I understand what you are saying. However, I cannot agree with you. I understand, endorse, and will use the heck out of the new Design Options tool available in 6. I've worked for the residential firm that Steve is speaking of (at least my firm has the exact same gripe) and this new tool not only squashes that arguement, but does it elegantly and thoroughly.

Sorry, but I'm finding it harder and harder to find ANYTHING to gripe about in Revit. . . even the interface. . . I think it's VERY efficient. Maybe not pretty, but it is efficient. I don't think that anyone has anything better - for what we need. Wellllll, maybe 3DSMax, but nobody else.

Of course, IMHO. As always.

[Steve Cashman]

Chad,

I feel for your firm. Don't take this the wrong way, but you guys are not taking advantange of what Revit could do for you. It sounds like your working harder not smarter. The separate drawing typology of AutoCAD and paper drawings is the problem in the design and construction industry and a total waste of human resources. Revit and BIM finally allow the power of the computer to improve the way we work, not just change the speed. I think it's really important to rethink everything when adopting Revit, because if you look at it like ACAD you will struggle and not see any serious improvements. What you described sounded a lot like the days of vellum and mylar. I hope you're able to convince your boss that there is a better way, a different way.

Good luck and happy holidays.

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I'm with Steve Cashman, Chad. You are being underutilised as much as the software.
You say you are doing mostly commercial work. Maybe bring up the potential benefits of having a Revit model to your clients. Marketing material, Tenant Improvements, Maintenance, Renovations... all the Building Life Cycle issues which the Revit database handles so deftly. All in the same package! Saves the client money, creates new revenue sources for your firm, puts a big smile on the bosses face and you get a nice Christmas bonus! (or better yet time off becasue you can do the work twice as fast in Revit as the other guys can do it in any other package)
Keep plugging away. I'm sure they will see the light soon enough.

[Charles Francis]

Chad:
I too am with Steve Cashman. My brother is an architect in Raleigh using ADT. One of his "draftsmen" decided that an 80 sheet set of drawings needed to be renumbered. The project that is now out for construction. He reviewed the drawings for correlation of detail numbers and sheet numbers; he had his structural engineer do the same. They found over 120 detail numbers that had not been changed by the drafting team. Now that the project is in construction, the contractor is finding more and sending in RFI's. Since I switched my firm to Revit, we have not experienced any such problem and do not anticipate one. We sing the praises of Revit where ever we go. :D

[narlee]

You're right, Steve. When I see AutoCAD, I twitch, shake and shudder. But it's so embedded in these design firms. On the legitimate side, thought, it's a program that doesn't use a lot of resourses and satisfies 2D requirements that predominate.

As for the Design Options, I simply don't understand how any firm can live without it. I'm only a one-man band, but it's been a huge PIA and surprise they didn't do it early on.

The only other real annoyance for me is the rendering. I know they will be working hard on getting VIZ into the next version. One step at a time, right? Accurender is ok if you don't mind waiting, because it is really user friendly. But slow! Not to be facetious, but sometimes I think the renderer in 3D Architect has advantages due to it's instantaneous output (I know the program is a joke, but you've got to give credit). Of course, you pay in quality on that output, but there's no setup and you can sit with someone and walk thru. Best if you can get VIZ quality with Accurender simplicity. Hey, we can dream. What Chad is doing is what I understand most firms do re Conceptuals & Renderings, and I guess with the same level of integration to the Documents (zero). There's an obvious loss of efficiency that Accurender (and now VIZ Render?) addresses, which probably has lots of glitches that will be worked out over the next few years. Got to remember, there are real people working on it and it takes some time.

[Vincent Valentijn]

:D :D :D :D :D

I for one am VERY SATISFIED with Revit 6.0
~ so I'd like to compliment the Revit development crew ~

I can say that my wishlist for this release has come true for about 80% Specially the extension on data outputs (shared parameters in ODBC, extrusion parameters and sweeplengths) are exactly what I've been begging for.
The improved designfunctions and a little more customisation posibilities are very nice too, I love it! :D

What a nice Christmas present...
For Revit 7 (let's say at Easter 2004? hahaha :D) I wish:
nested family parameters in project ODBC
detail components that generate into the model (what a dream)

[Cathy Hadley]

As to requesting changes in the interface...

I say no no no... I'm all for adding right click capabilities and accessing element properties through shortcuts or whatever...

But please don't go re-designing the interface. As a trainier there is nothing more frustrating than seeing users on R14 Acad, while a new 2004 sits on the shelf... because it just looks sooo different... "I can't find anything..." Please don't go doing that to Revit.

I just think its so great we can D/L a new version and wiz bang here I am being able to be productive in it ... the same day?! Of course it'll take some time to root out all the new stuff but its nice to not be afraid to just DO IT !!!

just my .02

CZH

[hand471037]

I can't agree more. Even sticking to a not-great-but-workable interface is much better than constantly changing the interface. AutoCAD is one of the worse offenders, not only does the UI change major medaphores from version to version, but the command-line tools change context, options, and have *never* been consistant in workflow, from even tool to tool!

To contrast, I can sit someone down who's familur with Photoshop 4 (or heck, even 2.5!) with Photoshop 7, and in half an hour (at most) have them doing decent work. Or I learned how to use Dreamweaver 3, but was able to pick up Dreamweaver MX (6? I think?) in no time at all. Started with Revit 3.1, now on 6, and again, no problems...

I think AutoCAD is really one of the *worse* offenders in this area. I tell people here in my office (who are on AutoCAD 2000) that AtuoDesk changed the UI 'for the better' in 2004, and all I get is groans... :)