To Revit or not to Revit, that is the.........

[dcretsinger]

OK, here's my problem and I would greatly appreciate your input (as non-biased as possible please). I am an architect setting up an in-house design studio within a remodeler/design-builder. I have used many different 2d CAD programs at a very advanced level over the years for several architecture firms and remodelers and now must recommend a CAD program for the new office. The choice, as I see it, is between ArchiCad and Revit. I have been evaluating both programs on my computer and I see the potential of both programs and really can't decide. While I am a novice (at best) in each program here's what I see good and bad in both programs so far.

Revit:
1. Great intuitive interface with easy to use snaps, ortho, and tentative snaps.
2. Very good library of parts right out of the box and more can be found online.
3. Temporary dimension tool is fantastic.
4. Poor/slow rendering capabilities.
5. Not great tools (not that bad either) for making CD's but seems to be making an effort here.
6. Subscription prices that are absurd. Not only do you have to buy the product once but over and over again.
7. Good: has that behemoth Autodesk backing the product.
8 Bad: has that behemoth Autodesk backing the product.

ArchiCAD:
1. Very sophisticated and powerful selection of tools.
2. Line weight control to the Nth degree, a great plus. I am extremely critical of CAD drawings that read flat, whether they be Presentation dwgs or CD's.
3. Very good rendering and the Sketch rendering function (a Photoshop like rendering tool) can be very useful for quick looks that a remodeling client can relate to.
4. Easy to view and modify library parts.
5. Not enough library parts from Graphisoft and/or vendors..
6. Can't just point and click when drawing. You must enter "shift + R" before every co-ordinate entry. This drives me crazy.
7. No offset command that functions as one would expect (a la AutoCAD). This also drives me crazy.I have no ides how one details without a drop dead simple offset tool. I guess I'd have to learn.
8. No subscription fee (at least not yet).

The list could go on and on for either product. I think if I could combine the ease of Revit and it's snaps and temporary dimensions with ArchiCad's CD detailing tools (and line weight control), library modification tools, and rendering capabilities I'd be set. But alas, I can't.

So my question is what do you think is Revit's single greatest asset (please don't list CD set co-ordination as they both are very good at this) and what is it's greatest weakness. Be truthful here. I would really appreciate your input. I think I will do well with either product but would be interested to know what it is that the typical user loves/hates.

I'll try listing this in an ArchiCad forum as well....

Thanks,

Dean

[iru69]

See this post:

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=12780

Everyone on these forums is really nice, so don't take a lack of response as being anything more than this topic has already been covered to the point that people are rolling their eyes that I'm even responding...

Here's some advice. Download the Revit trial. Complete the tutorials. Search the forums for answers to your questions. If you can't find an answer, post a question and you're very likely to receive a helpful answer. After thirty days, decide if Revit is right for you.

[Taylor A]

I haven't used ArchiCAD myself but have 3 guys working for me who come from an ArchiCAD background and they say they wouldn't like to back.
Your comment about the model parts.....I have found model parts extremely quick and easy to make.

[BillyGrey]

Forgive me for turning this into a defending the product thread,
but listing the CD creation tools in Revit as questionable?
That is one of it's greatest strengths. I don't know of a
program out there that compares to it's ease of use, you absolutely
wysiwyg on CD creation.

Also, subscriptions are a way to compel upgrades without an option not to, unless
you don't mind getting locked into a release, but Archicad upgrades, are they free?

Good Luck, and don't forget to choose Revit.

[Scott D Davis]

Try drawing a spiral stair in ArchiCAD without add-ons.

Try using "plotmaker" to lay out all of your sheets, then make a change to an elevation. How long does it take to update?

"Fix" problems such as "No Offset" and "Shift-R" by BUYING add-ons such as ArchiRuler.

Have fun with Layers in ArchiCAD! (think they are complicated in 2D??? Try 3D!)

Hope you like to program code if you are going to use ArchiCAD...you'll ned to know GDL scripting language to create content.

Try to create an automatically updating Drawing Index to place on a sheet in ArchiCAD....

try to Open more than one file at a time in AC.

[knurrebusk]

Try drawing a spiral stair in Archicad without add-ons.
My point of view is different.

I´ts not the small things that made me abandon Archicad!, I just lost my nerve in meetings with real clients.

I trust Revit 90% in real time drawing with clients, Archicad was a nightmare that never ended..

[Scott D Davis]

8. No subscription fee (at least not yet).
They must have heard you.....(click link to ArchiCAD Site)

subscription service to start in US this summer (http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=6635)

[richard.82786]

Really, Scott, if you're going to bash ArchiCAD, at least be accurate....



Try drawing a spiral stair in ArchiCAD without add-ons..
Easy as placing a spiral stair and adjusting parameters for height, treads, radius, etc..


Try using "plotmaker" to lay out all of your sheets, then make a change to an elevation. How long does it take to update?
If using native plotmaker drawings (PMKs), a few milliseconds. If "live", anywhere from a second or two to 30 seconds, depending on how many you need to update at once, and whether you've updated before.



"Fix" problems such as "No Offset" and "Shift-R" by BUYING add-ons such as ArchiRuler.
Let's see, buying ArchiCAD plus ArchiRuler = approx. $4150 (USD)
Buying Revit plus first year subscription = approx. $5400.
You can buy a helluva lotta add-ons and still be money ahead.



Have fun with Layers in ArchiCAD! (think they are complicated in 2D??? Try 3D!).
Huh??? Any entity is only on one layer at a time, whether 2D or 3D. A roof can be on the "Roof" layer, and will turn on or off in both 2D and 3D with the same layer control.



Hope you like to program code if you are going to use ArchiCAD...you'll ned to know GDL scripting language to create content.
Oh, puhleeze! This is just simply so wrong. You can save any native entity or entities, such as a roof, slab, wall, or even any library object, or combination thereof, as a new object. There are plenty of ways to create free-form entities, that don't require a single line of GDL.



Try to create an automatically updating Drawing Index to place on a sheet in ArchiCAD....
Okay, I'll give you this one. There is no automated drawing index.



try to Open more than one file at a time in AC.
I do this all the time. You can have as many sessions of AC (or Plotmaker) going as you have memory for, and can copy/paste or whatever between them.

Richard

[Scott D Davis]

Cool Richard, thanks for clarifying. I've said it a million times, I only know what I've been told about ArchiCAD. These are things I have heard complaints about over and over again. If they are incorrect, then I take it all back.

Sprial stairs must have changed in 9.0. They could not be done in previous versions without an add-on.

30 seconds an update. That's about 29.5 seconds too long.

$5400? You need a new reseller.

Layers period = PITA

So why is GDL necessary at all in ArchiCAD if it's so easy to create anything without it.

Cool.

So is it just a Mac thing that you can only open one file at a time? It's a hot topic on the ArchiCAD site right now.

[trombe]

My working knowledge of Revit is nowhere near most of the people who post here who are amazing and incredibly helpful to all who ask, so my comments must be seen in this light.
I can still do most of what I need and would not Chuck Revit over for anything else unless AD make the subscription price prohibitive or stop developing Revit.
That said,

Revit Weakness for me :
Poor Help / documentation for Family Editor which is a crucial and an incredible part of Revit - without the excellent people on this forum, there would be big trouble for most users world wide I believe. The nuances of family creation are many and a lot of it is not simple to learn when the Help is so lacking for this crucial element.

Help in general is not something to write home about.

Graphic formatting is still being improved and we hope it will get there (import / export formats - in VectorWorks, you seem to be able to open a huge range of files very easily and export quite widely)

Rendering may be slower than some rendering engines but Revit is not a dedicated rendering package and AccuRender is easy to use. I think only very competent / experienced ( or any people who have had particular tuition) users of VectorWorks can do good stuff with RenderWorks and you see many bad examples of rendered images from ArchiCAD.
I don't think Accurender is brilliant if you are going to compare with stuff on cgArchitect sites and the like, but it is not that bad at all and seems to wow every client every time, so I don't have a problem with it.

I have a friend with VW , one with ArchiCAD, one with AutoCAD LT 2004, one with Viz and it is always good to see what they do, hear how they do.
I am totally convinced about Revit at this stage and would think that when you have a respectable library on hand from your custom efforts, the rest is awesome.

Subscriptions:
At the moment, the annual subscription is acceptable and if you think about what you are getting, in some way it is chicken #^*!!%. Try going back to a drawing board and then review what a subscription really means to your productivity and flexibility even over 2D programs.
Additionally, VectorWorks charges for major release upgrades with only the intermediate patches free. A major upgrade is approx 22% less than a year subscription for Revit ( at least in NZ).
Same goes for ArchiCAD from what I am told.
In the light of this, the Revit subscription is only following the market and hopefully will not try and become more expensive than its close rivals.


The Revit strengths are too many to go into here, but relating that to ArchiCAD is not for me to comment on, but for those more knowledgeable.

There is one last thing to muse over.
I have yet to hear anyone but a Revit user say how much they enjoy using their CAD program - especially those who have some experiences in the past with other programs. Revit is fun to use and that factor is noteworthy in the context of a working day.

cheers
trombe

[dcretsinger]

I'm very thankful for the responses here and am particularly thankful to Irusan for that wonderfully useful link. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I in no way wanted for this to become an "I'm better than you debate". What I was looking for was a simple response in the form of a .... wish list vs best feature.... and I appreciate the responses. This has helped me clarify several issues.

Thanks for your help.

[iru69]

Everyone on these forums is really nice, so don't take a lack of response as being anything more than this topic has already been covered to the point that people are rolling their eyes that I'm even responding....

Well, so much for that theory (the "lack of response" part, not the "really nice" part :)). I guess it's a testament to Revit that its users are so ebullient that they can't help themselves.

Regarding the link, all the credit goes to BillyGrey for taking the time to put that list together and of course to all those who participated in the threads themselves.

The thing that always strikes me, as trombe reminded me above (and countless others have said before), is that Revit is fun, and it makes work a little more fun. Good luck dcretsinger, and hopefully we'll see you back here some day as a full time Revit user.

[richard.82786]

So why is GDL necessary at all in ArchiCAD if it's so easy to create anything without it.


This may be getting off the OP's topic, but I think it is worth responding to. GDL is optional. The reason that GDL can be helpful is that there many things that can be done with GDL programming that could be done no other way.

Example: I do a lot of interiors in my residential practice. I have a curtain object scripted in GDL by a VERY talented Russian programmer. By changing parameters, the curtain will take on amazing new 3D properties. I can use parameters to do very simple things, like change the type of finials on the curtain rod, both in 3D and 2D. I can display the curtain (in an actual 3D object) with tiebacks or a user-selectable number of swags and layers of curtain and trim types. I can adjust the "fullness" of the materal (density of the cloth folds) and the angle of the drape, and how close to the floor it hangs. And with all changes in these parameters the curtain is being regenerated on-the-fly to look like real cloth draped folds, in actual 3D. Further, this single curtain object, which is capable of so much variety, will display with the appropriate amount of detail based on camera distance; if far away, it will be rather simple so it doesn't use up a lot of computer resources to render.

Now this kind of object is NOT something that an average user is going to create. But consider that it might be useful for a furniture manufacturer to be able to distribute their entire chair line as a single object. Change a single parameter and get a whole new chair, or customize with various options; back types, cushions, legs, etc. Very efficient to distribute to customers.

Without GDL, you can easily create "one off" objects, change sizes, materials, 2D display characteristics, and add "properties" like cost info and estimating information. But WITH GDL you can take objects to a whole new level of customization and intelligence.

Richard

[beegee]

If this Revit / Archicad comparision discussion goes much further we will split that content into a new thread because, yes, it is getting OT.