Monster projects: detail in the project or in AutoCAD?

[Wes Macaulay]

I only ask because of this: on larger projects the biggest holdup can simply be saving to central. As the file gets bigger, it would seem logical that the length of the process is tied to the size of the file.

So if you add a bunch of 2D details drawn in Revit, that would add to the file's size. So what if you link in AutoCAD details? They'll be outside of the database and not add to its size. I would think that a link is less data than a Revit-drawn detail.

So the idea here is to keep the Revit database as light as possible so Revit can take care of everything BUT the details, and do so as quickly as possible.

Any developers feel like fielding this one? ;-)

[bpayne]

Another option I was tossing around in my head was linking a seperate Revit file for just the details, especially typical details.

[Scott D Davis]

Another option I was tossing around in my head was linking a seperate Revit file for just the details, especially typical details.
But then how would callouts point to the detail number/sheet?

[bpayne]

I did say tossing..there's a reason why nothing has settled to the bottom yet.

Note: It's strange posting a reply to someone that sits 20 feet from my desk. Ahhh...technology! :)

[Scott D Davis]

Are you on that darn AUGI again?? Now get back to work! :mrgreen:

[LRaiz]

I only ask because of this: on larger projects the biggest holdup can simply be saving to central. As the file gets bigger, it would seem logical that the length of the process is tied to the size of the file.

So if you add a bunch of 2D details drawn in Revit, that would add to the file's size. So what if you link in AutoCAD details? They'll be outside of the database and not add to its size. I would think that a link is less data than a Revit-drawn detail.

So the idea here is to keep the Revit database as light as possible so Revit can take care of everything BUT the details, and do so as quickly as possible.

Any developers feel like fielding this one? ;-)
When dwg file is linked (as opposed to imported) Revit still imports all ACAD entities and keeps their translations inside of rvt file. However when opening rvt file Revit will check if linked dwg is still there and if it is modified. If dwg is modified then its contents are reread and re-embedded into rvt. Thus linking instead of importing would not decrease the size of rvt file and is not likely to speed up STC.

On the other hand all view specific elements are kept in a separate workset that corresponds to this view. Details which are view specific will live in their own worksets. Furthermore during STC only worksets that contain changes will travel across network and be saved anew. The structure of workset-enabled rvt file is similar to a folder; it allows rewriting some worksets without rewriting entire file.

Thus Revit is already doing a number of optimizations and I doubt that simple minded end-user tricks will speed up much. But you can obviously try and measure your own mileage.

[bpayne]

Did he just call us "simple minded"? I think he did! :)

[JamesVan]

How many people on this forum have invented the world's greatest piece of software? I can think of only two members who are entitled to a zinger or two.

All kidding aside, I think that we've got XREF's in mind when assuming how Revit handles links. In Autocad, an XREF will only increase the size of host file by a miniscule amount compared to a regular insert. In Revit, linking only seems to maintain a tether to the original file when compared to importing.

An interesting concept to study is to take a linked RVT project and copy it a few hundred times. I've been told that this will not increase the file size of the host.

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Wes. Our smallest project is just short of 90MB. All documentation is done in Revit, not one ounce in acad. We build a stack of families!

There are two significant things we have noticed with big files:
1.Don't model anything in the project (in place families).Rather build the family.
2. Stay away from lines, both model + detail. rather build the family.
3. Reduce the dwg usage. ie We will bring a dwg in to model the topography. Once done the dwg is deleted. Same applies to existing buildings.We have no dwg's in our projects, what so ever!!!!!!

We have found that by eliminating the fore mentioned we have in some cases cleaned and reduced our file sizes up to 25%. Having said that, nothing is spared when it comes to detail. We have sometimes been criticized for over detailing ( and I am proud to say all done in revit!). What does help though is that we have been on Revit since 4.5 so the libraries to chose from are extensive. Families ARE your Friends!

[Martin P]

Now that it is possible with 8.0 (and I since found out 7.0 too?) to copy and paste an entire detail from a project to a new detail familiy (ie you wont get "unable to copy between project and family" error) EDITED - you cant copy detail detail components though, so I am wrong - its still not great.... - and the ability to automatically reload (and edit) a family within Revit... I think there will be a whole lot of new options open to us all with regards to how we create,store,archive and load details produced within Revit.... havent fully thought through a process yet, but this simple addition has REALLY opened up the detailing (from my point of view anyway..)

Massive advantages I see in 8.0 are........

Details can now be easily turned into families, EDIT - as long you dont use detail components!! - (copy/paste project to family) - separate detail files/families away from the models, a big advantage.....All our details in Revit we will now make into detail (component) families using copy and paste.

We can update them (families) from a know location with new feature in 8.0 -like xrefs or links, but they need to be told to update - so better - ie details in archived files will NOT end up changing unless I ask them to, unlike links/xrefs.......

Details can all be stored in one big file for quick copy/paste into projects.... much better than xrefs/links - find the detail on the drafting view, copy and paste - no need for trawling through loads of weird named details with windows explorer.... Just see the detail you need and copy it.

As far as I can see, my position on Detailing in Revit has changed. I have up until now not detailed in Revit and always in Autocad. We are re-thinking that

EDIT - I was wrong, as I cant copy details into detail families, I wont be doing the above... Sticking with Autocad for now. Maybe 9.0 will finally grant this wish.

[sbrown]

I highly discourage using linked dwgs in a worksets environment. Currently in 7.0 and in 8.0 if a new layer is added or removed from a dwg. Or certain unknown things are done to the dwg, it will lose all its graphic overides when reloaded. This causes significant time issues. If your details are perfect and you don't forsee changing them, then it works fine. Also if you take the project home to work on, the first time you open the file you are fine it retains a copy of the linked files, the second time you open it, it says it can't find them because obviously you didn't bring them with you. So when you get back to the office on monday and reload them its like they are being inserted for the first time and you will lose all the graphic overides and if you added any dims to them they will be gone too.

We have been trying to used acad interior elevations and then tagging them and dimensioning them in revit so they look the same, this has proved not to be a good idea. For just details, you will have better luck.

[LRaiz]

Did he just call us "simple minded"? I think he did! :)
No offense was intended. I was not talking about users but about tricks that they use attempting to deal with real performance problems. I regret if my non-native English resulted in ambiguous wording.

[ejburrell67787]

Furthermore during STC only worksets that contain changes will travel across network and be saved anew. The structure of workset-enabled rvt file is similar to a folder; it allows rewriting some worksets without rewriting entire file. .
This implies quite strongly to me that if you want to reduce STC time you should, as best practice, only have open the worksets you actually need and only work on those worksets (ie don't borrow loads of stuff). Obviously this requires intelligent workset creation and division of work.

[rhys]

Now that it is possible with 8.0 (and I since found out 7.0 too?) to copy and paste an entire detail from a project to a new detail familiy (ie you wont get "unable to copy between project and family" error) -
How ,Martin, how? I still can't do it without the error message i can copy paste lines but not a detail component.

[gsHoeflinger]

We do all our 2D details in Revit and those working on the 2D details don't have much issue with the STC.
Mainly because they aren't normally interfacing with the model elements. They don't need to borrow many model elements as they tend to work on sheets and as such sometimes only STC once or at most twice a day (lunch and COB).

Its a no brainer here to detail in Revit.

[Martin P]

How ,Martin, how? I still can't do it without the error message i can copy paste lines but not a detail component.


Damn!! I only copied filled regions and lines :(

Its really not a big wish is it?? We really could do so much with this one little thing!

[rhys]

Damn!! I only copied filled regions and lines :(

Its really not a big wish is it?? We really could do so much with this one little thing!
I think it might be quite a "big thing" since detail componets are families. But I agree it would make reusing details a lot easier. Just a thought but now that families can be edited from within projects and nested families too. One way to detail would be completely in the family editor only bring into the project for coordination.

[Wes Macaulay]

Wes. Our smallest project is just short of 90MB. All documentation is done in Revit, not one ounce in acad. We build a stack of families!

There are two significant things we have noticed with big files:
1.Don't model anything in the project (in place families).Rather build the family.
2. Stay away from lines, both model + detail. rather build the family.
3. Reduce the dwg usage. ie We will bring a dwg in to model the topography. Once done the dwg is deleted. Same applies to existing buildings.We have no dwg's in our projects, what so ever!!!!!!

We have found that by eliminating the fore mentioned we have in some cases cleaned and reduced our file sizes up to 25%. Having said that, nothing is spared when it comes to detail. We have sometimes been criticized for over detailing ( and I am proud to say all done in revit!). What does help though is that we have been on Revit since 4.5 so the libraries to chose from are extensive. Families ARE your Friends!Wow - this is very interesting. So you're saying the in-place families decrease performance?

Could you elaborate on why you don't use detail and model lines? Most of our projects are one-offs -- there is little to be gained from nested families (detail components inside windows, doors, etc.). I assume you use nested families a lot and it benefits you?

Finally you say that DWGs - linked or otherwise - are a problem? they add bloat to your file?

Good thread, folks!

[Martin P]

Just a thought but now that families can be edited from within projects.......

Just had a go at this Rhys - To say families can be edited within projects I think is pretty misleading.... (not of you!) Revit will automatically open a family and let you edit and save it might be a better description - ie what you are doing is still completely isolated from the project. I think the point has been missed with this funtion, surely what we need is to be able to see the familiy in place in the project and edit it?? Thats what I expected anyway.... I can see why a door or something would be hard to do this with - but detail components should not be? To draw details and components in isolation from the project is not easy, I am understating that too - thats always been my problem anyway, I will still have to rely on bits of paper with stuff scribbled down :(

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Wow - this is very interesting. So you're saying the in-place families decrease performance?

Could you elaborate on why you don't use detail and model lines? Most of our projects are one-offs -- there is little to be gained from nested families (detail components inside windows, doors, etc.). I assume you use nested families a lot and it benefits you?

Finally you say that DWGs - linked or otherwise - are a problem? they add bloat to your file?

Good thread, folks!

Wes we had two problematic files that were excessively large. I spent two days thinning out the problems. and this is what came of it.
In section we used detail lines to depict among other things the steel trusses over 15 sections. copy paste you get the idea! By building up the structural family not only did we replace the detail lines but also put ALL the trusses (1256) as they should be, so as to see them in our elevations.Strangely enough the file reduced and became easier to work in. try selecting lines as apposed to components, there seems to be a delay of like 3 seconds with lines, components no delay???

As for in place families we had endless hassles (and we are not the only ones) but when it came to cutting sections we had the most bizarre visibility issues, of like things behind our section clip that were showing. With the new added feature of edit and load family in V8 I now see no need for in-place families especially with the behavioral issues we were getting. as well as the re-use options of families as apposed to in-place families. In place families seemed to store the memory in the project file. I might stand under correction though

Our projects are also unique to each other, but as I said the library we have built up over the last 3 years is extensive, so to open a similar detail edit,load, nest, whatever, is a matter of minutes. The nested detail added to host profiles is not only used in doors/windows but slab edge, eaves details, wall corbel/copings. So our detailing gets done in the families and simply added to the projects. Now all we do is cut the section and dimension & annotate. We also have a huge lib on profiles so things like sliding track details/aluminum shopfronts, etc, the profile is already in the family with various levels of detail added to it. SO yes, we use alot of families and nested families. We would rather spend the time in the family that way we can re-use/edit for other projects. When it comes to scheduling its a matter of what fields you want, and print. All the info is stored in the family right to the tap sets, waste sets, ironmongery etc you just tick what you need.

Lastly. The dwg issue. We are so for Revit, that if you mention dwg the hair stands up.
We have definitely found the BLOAT factor as you so nicely put it when keeping dwg in the project. We re-model everything. So much so that when it comes to existing buildings, we work off the hard copy. You cannot trust someone else's dwg, and we have learned from experience. Did a building that was set up at strange angles using the pick tool for walls, copied the dwg. couldn't dimension to what seemed like perpendicular walls/columns/grids. the dwg was off by.0325 of a degree on every other grid. Re modeled the building. I still have a copy of the original with the dwg's in it (9 of them), as apposed to the new file which is 80% more complete (no dwg). 46MB vs 32MB. talk about BLOAT.
Excuse the novel. but there is no quick way of explaining our findings.

[Wes Macaulay]

I can't explain the poor performance of detail lines vs components... that's odd. But you are removing a lot of data from the database since the detail lines must be repeated and detail components make all that go away.

The DWG thing is also weird. Were these DWGs linked, or imported?

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Wes, there are a lot of things I can't explain either. Another good example is for cupboards & joinery, we originally just sketch detailed lines, to depict counter tops ( time limit). Then we built up Instance counters families, and replaced all the detail lines, once again, file size difference.(400 + counter tops)

The dwg issue. We had both imported as well as linked dwg. There is a definite performance lag while the dwg's are in the project. Once removed there is a noticeable difference in not only size but also speed navigating around the project.

Maybe someone has an explanation for this! As far as I am concerned it's all about building the Families and JUST Revit!!

[Wes Macaulay]

Thanks Zeds. Yours may be one of the most helpful posts for me in a long time. My high post count is just a smokescreen to hide the fact that I'm making it all up as I go along :razz:

At least we don't have the HR issues like they have at WLC... they don't even TALK to each other :mrgreen:

[Scott D Davis]

At least we don't have the HR issues like they have at WLC... they don't even TALK to each other :mrgreen:
Hey! If you met Brian, you'd understand!!! :evil:

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Thanks Wes. We have put alot of time and effort over the past two and half years into converting our whole office onto Revit ( now 12 seats). We do Large projects, (+20 000sqm, 5 -7 user worksets) full detail and co-ordination. We are constantly researching the best methods and practices to make the tasks easier and quicker. We are now starting to see the full benefits of BIM. Now we keenly await the rest, MEP/Structural etc to take BIM and co-ordination, even further.

The light at the end of the tunnel, is now so bright, one needs shades.

[GuyR]

We are constantly researching the best methods and practices to make the tasks easier and quicker.

That's a key statement IMO. A management attitude that allows time for R&D. And the same management won't be seeing family development as a waste of time.

Families are the future....

Guy

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Families are the future....
That's what I keep telling my wife.

[Gadget Man]

...We build a stack of families...
Zeds,



Thank you for reassuring me, that I am going in the right direction! So far my excuse was, that I am too lazy to draw things over and over again. I know some guys, who re-type the same piece of text on each page - they couldn't be bothered with using it pre-made, as a block or a family! Utter nonsense...!



Sometimes I have had this feeling, that I was spending too much time on creation of families (obviously my short term productivity suffers as a result) but now I know that long term I will win…



Yours is an excellent example!



This is a very good thread!



Thank you!