Question for ADT converts [others too, I suppose]

[shaugh1784]

How have some of you gotten started in Revit? Jump in with a new project on a deadline or learn "on the side" and start the next project with it?

I tend to be a "baptism by fire" kind of guy - but I'd hate to get behind the 8-ball on a project with a short fuse. I suppose this is what revit series is for...

What's the best resource in New Engand - USA for training? I'm in Southern New England and would love to spend a few days with somebody, then just jump into the fire... there's always zoogdesign forum and what's the other one ?rugi? I work alone, but I'm fearless.

Lastly: for former ADT2004 users.. Any regrets at all? Just tell the truth, don't sugar coat it. If there are aspects which are worse but likely to improve, please just spit 'em out. I'm all ears (eyes).

Thanks in advance

[J-G]

I switched to Revit last year before ADT4 came out. We got an update for ADT4, and I installed it but then uninstalled it, so I can't help with question regarding that. Really I don't see ADT comparing to Revit. All of the features in Revit are, in my opinion, quite superior. Walls are wall, doors are doors, etc, but the difference is in the way that they are executed. To me Revit offers much more control. You can actually create an accurate 3d model. Being able to cuts sections where ever you want to and manipulate objects...adjust the height of dormers, roofs, verify intersections, etc is really priceless. It also does an excellent job at actually using the model data to create clean elevations, sections, and floor plans. In ADT we would just create a basic model to generate line work for elevations and sections and then explode those views for 2d line work (I am sure ADT4 is better at this now). Also things are organized by type rather then layers, this is much more intuitive.

The only thing that I sometimes miss are ADT's roof slabs. I had more control with roof slabs then with Revit's roofs (Revit is not always consistent in allowing you to trim roofs, and it lacks the miter tool, and pivot point of ADT). This bothered me at first, but although Revit's roofs are not as controllable, the ability to work in sections makes me feel that I can model a complex roof quicker. Roofs are important to me because we do some pretty wacky stuff, but for 90% of the people I don't think there is a problem, and since you can directly model a roof as an in place family, there are also some other possibilities that I did not have in ADT.

I don't think that you should just "jump into a project." Personally it wouldn't matter how good a program is, you are going to have to set the program up they way you want it, and decide how you are going to use it to create projects. I learned Revit by spending a lot of time with it, and going through Revit's excellent tutorials. I recommend doing the tutorials, and perhaps buying a book, and then spending time on the discussion groups.

I believe AutoDesk recommends picking an ideal pilot project, and this is sound advice. Pick a project that is smaller, and not too complex. This gives you a chance to work everything out before heading onto a bigger more involved project, and most importantly it gives you the confidence that Revit can indeed create a beautiful set of CDs.

Now I am doing everything in Revit except for details. We have a great detail library and input system in AutoCAD. I tried converting some details to Revit, but there were some problems. First, the annotation from the details doesn't come in consistently, and second, once you create a detail where do you put it? Having hundreds of details listed as drafting views isn't appealing to me. In AutoCAD you browse with an external viewer to the correct detail and then drag it onto your detail sheet, it is more visual and works great, so until Revit has something similar we will just keep the Details in AutoCAD.

[mlgatzke]

sphaugh
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How have some of you gotten started in Revit? Jump in with a new project on a deadline or learn "on the side" and start the next project with it?

I switched over to Revit in version 4, from ADT 3.3 in November 2002. I too tend go learn more in a "Baptism by fire." I spent a full weekend "playing" with a version of Revit and getting a feel for it. After that one weekend, I believed that Revit was the way to go and I switched to it completly on my next new project as a trial. The trial project was a GLOWING success and I switched my license a month later. I've never looked back except to feel sorry for those "stuck" in the archaic world of ADT.

I'm an instructor at our community college. This forces me to stay current on my ADT skills. Believe me, after learning Revit and using it for a while now, I feel more and more sorry for those still in ADT who refuse to see the value of Revit. I think they somehow feel that switching over to Revit would be damaging to their pride. Isn't the goal supposed to be accuracy and productivity?

I recommend jumping in with both feet after you've taken a full weekend to become familar, and perhaps comfortable, with Revit.

[shaugh1784]

I think they somehow feel that switching over to Revit would be damaging to their pride. Isn't the goal supposed to be accuracy and productivity?

I think that's a huge problem. Once I get my boss on board I think we can go for it, I just don't want to abandon 3 years of teething on ADT, to a point of proficiency and actually many epiphanies in version '04 - but I still yearn for a better place...

Thx for your input, both of you guys above.

[Les Therrien]

I investigated Revit since it's second release. I was very interested in its promise. At the time I had just jumped into the ADT r2 and Viz offer which was out at the time. I feel I was lied to and tricked into the purchase. I was shown the usual reseller demo and was impressed with it. I even took training. The instructor could not answer many of my questions about how to do simple things. They even called tech. support at Autodesk only to get the same answer. I used the software as AutoCAD only while I waited until the next release so that I could do the simple things I wanted to do. I then only used ADT for its wall - door - and window functions (like most users). I am a production designer not a rocket scientist. :evil:

To side track here for a moment. Last year I decided to check-in again and see how the Revit development was going. At this time the whole Autodesk-Revit purchase was about to take place. Through the newsgroups I read and read all the posts. There was something very valuable here. Not only did I learn lots about a program that I did not have, or even use yet, but there was this "family" that existed between its users. Some have even become friends without ever meeting. Obviously something very special here. Revit users were very threatened by the Autodesk purchase. Every little thing was important. Whether it be the actual software, the way it was purchased or rented, the ability to actually contact the software engineers even. Autodesk then tried to switch over the alt.cad.revit newsgroup only to find they had better wait. Then Chris created the ZOOG Design newsgroup! Pretty much all the users including people from Autodesk come here for their information (thanks Chris). Needless to say, there is something special here. I haven't even begun to talk about the software!!

I personally attended all the online courses that were (are?) available though revit.com. They are better than a tutorial since there is an instructor that you could ask questions to. I learned tonnes! Still, not actually using the software I was very impressed. Finally, the Revit purchase was complete and Autodesk came out with the "Companion Seat Offer" and I made the plunge. I played around with Revit minimally since I had gained so much knowledge from the newsgroups. I waited until I felt I was ready then sought out a couple of clients whose deadlines were not time sensitive.
For my first projects that I am about to complete, I was able to communicate design ideas to clients that would have been near impossible by any other means. By the end of January, I plan to be on Revit 100%. This software actually makes me want to work!
My advice is that Revit is user friendly enough that you could just jump in and go, but I recommend that you become familiar with the way it works and get a decent template ready, then you will fly!!

I am not sugar coating this. Revit is awesome!!! I wish I had this software 10 years ago. I will not go back to ADT (AutoCAD) except when using old files. I am amazed at the software everytime I learn something new about it. Right now I am doing a project using phasing. WOW!! :D
When I think of how I would have had to things before?? Revit is just so much easier that I keep thinking I'm missing something.

Sorry about going on and on..............My name is Les Therrien and I'm a Revit-a-holic. :oops:

[studio3p]

I'm glad someone finally asked the question about Revit vs ADT in this way. I used ADT for years, and before that I was using Softdesk. The thing about ADT that I haven't read much on this newsgroup is that ADT served an important role in it's time. I haven't seen ADT 4 in action, so I can't comment on the latest release, but unless it has made leaps and bounds, then I think it's timeand place are passing. Still, I don't see a huge value in bashing ADT. In my opinion, it was so much better than working in vanilla AutoCAD. For years I fought with others in the office to demonstrate the value that ADT offered. That being said, I'm not using ADT anymore. Period.

I started using Revit 100% the day the e-mail confirmation hit my inbox with my license information. The first project took longer than I would have liked, simply because I didn't know how to speak Revit. It took me hours to understand how to rotate a view so I could work on it orthagonally rather than at a 45 degree angle. Everyone here has said it a million times, but I'll say it again - this forum is one of the most valuable tools available to Revit users. In addition to rotating the plan there were a number of other issues that in the scheme of things were simple, but at the time during the first project were a bit frustrating. Still, I'm glad I forced myself to deal with them during that project instead of reverting to a 1/2 and 1/2 scenario with Revit and AutoCAD. There are still many things I'm not doing with Revit that I could/should, but the results I'm getting thus far are so far beyond what I ever hoped to accomplish using an AutoCAD based software.

Like a few of the previous replies, I suggest you choose a project and dive in. Keep your browser pointed here and ask away as you encounter issues.

[shaugh1784]

I'm glad someone finally asked the question about Revit vs ADT in this way.... I haven't seen ADT 4 in action, so I can't comment on the latest release, but unless it has made leaps and bounds, then I think it's timeand place are passing. Still, I don't see a huge value in bashing ADT......

The only reason I remain a 'lurker' here is that my firm has 8 seats of ADT, we only need 4 if we'd known about flexLM. And worse decisions have been lately: letting the subscription runout on all 8 seats since the boss who makes that decision, yet doesn't use cad, "didn't see the need"... so I'm trying to be very careful in going over his head!

My only other conundrum is that I've really made huge progress since ADT04 arrived. For the first time I've actually created sections & elevations from the model, used materials for the 2d views - and I'm impressed, but still wanting more. Since the rest of my company has ADT04 on the shelf [I'm a standalone guy in a remote office] and is using ADT3.3 (in a very vanilla autocad way except for some bad use of door schedules) I think it may be time to throw my voice in and try to make some noise w/ the owner of the company. To his credit, despite hating computers, he owns sketchup - because he thought it was cool (but admits he really doesn't know how to use it)... So opportunity is shall we say, knocking...

Thanks for putting up w/ my incessant tire kicking!

[aaronrumple]

Sorry - I was a long time supporter or ADT in the eary days. I had high hopes for it. Looking back - trying to integrate ADT for the average <even above average> office is a waste of time.

Deployment time and upkeep is a massive task. The new palettes are really a disaster.

[bclarch]

We played with Revit for awhile then decided to just jump in on one project. Worked for us. We decided on that approach based on the idea that we could always export out to Autocad to finish up if we got into a bind. Didn't have to though.

[dwillard]

I'm not sure of the size of your firm, but we had great results from the Implementation program that Autodesk/Revit offers. They sent one of their experts in for a week to train our project team of 12 people. The program also includes additional days for them to come back and help throughout the project when needed.

Not only did they train us to use the software, but have also been a big help with organizing project team structures, the process of design with Revit, etc.....You definitely get your money's worth out of these guys!

If interested give Hunter Marston (Autodesk Project Implementation Manager) a call at 781-839-5398 for more info. Once again, these guys have been great help for us.

[jmedley]

We played with Revit for awhile then decided to just jump in on one project. Worked for us. We decided on that approach based on the idea that we could always export out to Autocad to finish up if we got into a bind. Didn't have to though.

How did you plan on exporting and going back to Acad? I guess I don't have enough nerve. I have started several projects in the past year only to abandon them after several days to a week. I am usually behind the 8 ball with schedules and I lose my nerve after a couple of days.

I have been using Acad since 1983, so I have a lot of bad habits. I am now using ADT 4, but only in a basic way. I am a one man band doing 3 to 4 million dollar motels and hotels. I am usually waiting on consultants, but once they finish, I get behind very quickly.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. By the way, we are at the end of the world in New Mexico. As far as I know, I am the only guy who is trying to get up and going with REVIT. But eventually, I intend to become productive.

[aggockel50321]

I guess the question is:

How many projects have you started in ADT, taken them to a certain point, abandoned ADT, and then "cleaned them up" with straight Autocad.

Look at the result. You now have a bunch of vectors spread over countless layers. When you go for the first review with the owner, you're thinking under your breath "Don't let him change anything." I can't face any major changes to this design!"

If you have the time, you can make it look good by getting the line weight assignments, etc, all that plotting stuff right, in order to get a decent looking sheet.

Try Revit.

All the above stuff dissapears. You just have to draw a few walls, add a roof, doors, windows, etc, and all the other stuff that shows up on the ADT sheets, with about 1/2 the effort. No layers, no Xrefs, ladalada.

As far as plotting? Just accept the defaults, and you'll have a nice looking sheet.

Believe me, I spent a few years banging away with ACAD R12, & got quite proficient with it. I bought and then abandoned all the Sofdesk extensions, arch, mech, etc. The architectural extension offered by Autodesk with Rel 9 & 10 was a disaster. The initial Windows extension & rel 13 were even bigger disasters.

Just try Revit on a project. I'm sure you'll never export to acad to finish it, and at the end you'll say "What the hell was I thinking"

No longer will your designs be limited by the shortcomings of the software, or your proficiency with it.

Now that I sit on the other side of the fence (working for an owner), I can't believe the garbage we get from consultants using ADT, Microstation, Vectorworks, you name it, and we pay them for it!

My rant is over. Time for a glass of Merlot.

[Steve_Stafford]

Jim,

Don't wait for another project to pass by...jump in...the folks here will back you when you need questions answered. If you take the steps, do the tutorials, do the online classes (free other than your time). Get in a real bind? Call Revit support, see our known issues forum for support contact info.

If you are waiting on consultant's then use that time to rough out what you expect and get familiar with the tool set. Do you re-hash what consultant's give you? Meaning, reference it into your set? If so, you can still do it with Revit, just clean them up in AutoCAD first if necessary then import them.

At the very least you could expect to do your plans in Revit and get your layouts worked out fast. If you get scared you can drop back to building sections and wall sections in AutoCAD, assuming much of these projects is "been there, done that"? Nothing wrong with a blend to get your first project out the door...the next will be easier, and the next...well say goodbye to your old friend AutoCAD...you'll do lunch sometime...hehe.

Fly me out...I'll spend some time with you...I'd love to spend my winter in NM!! :D (course my wife and kids will want to come along and spoil the fun!)

[David Sammons]

Jim,

Go through the Revit tutorials from beginning to end and you will be off to a GREAT start. This will be one of (if not the best) time investments you make. It would surprise me if you even need to blend AutoCAD and Revit...I believe you could go with Revit all the way after the tutorials!

In addition to completing the tutorials, I took a small project that I completed in AutoCAD/ADT and (in my spare time...ha ha) did the same project in Revit. This was a great learning experience and allowed me to implement the lessons learned in the tutorials. In hindsight, I could have spent this time on a new project instead of redoing an old project but it did help me become more comfortable with Revit...although it does not take much to develop a comfort level with this extraordinary modeling tool.

And, regarding your consultants, you will really see the benefits when they are on board and using Revit as well. This will make project coordination a dream and you will be providing a much better service to your client with well-coordinated and better quality construction documents. You will also spend less time during construction dealing with coordination issues…a benefit for you as well as your client and the contractor. It’s a win-win situation for all. And imagine the potential when it is time to really exploit the potential of the building information model!

I am a structural engineer and I do not know of any architects in my area that are using Revit. In any case, I still use Revit and am making on going efforts to persuade them to do the same. Years of investment in AutoCAD/ADT details, LISP, etc. seems to be the main thing holding them back.

Good Luck!

Dave S.

[shaugh1784]

I guess the question is:

How many projects have you started in ADT, taken them to a certain point, abandoned ADT, and then "cleaned them up" with straight Autocad.


None since upgrading from v.2. Today, there is no need to break the model in ADT, but the sections & elevations suck without serious linework editing that does not always remain after updating "the model". Complex geometry, especially in roofs, are not simple. Obviously this is a disconnect that does not exist in Revit. Windows & doors are inherently overcomplicated when you mix single units with multiples of any configuration. Nothing that can't be overcome w/ some planning, but counterintuitive nonetheless if your template hasn't been warmed over by somebody really well versed....

Anyway, this sorta got off on a tangent... lets go back!

[sbrown]

jmedly, a one man operation is the best world for revit, however hotels aren't. They are possible to do if you allow yourself to break the cardinal rule of CAD "never draw anything twice" Unfortunately in revit groups don't work as well as they should which makes creating typical unit plans more difficult than it should be. I'm currently working on a 42 story "test hotel" project, which will hopefully turn into a real project. I know Chris Zoog has also used groups extensively for use in assisted living projects. Some tips to offer are.

1. create the unit walls that stack as "full height" ie if floors 1-10 are the same draw floor 1 and have all its walls go from level 1 - 11, that way any change to the first floor is reflected in all other floors.

2. Place your doors (unit doors) on the first floor, then group them all and copy paste align to the next 10 floors(this can be done in one step now in 6.0. This allows for accurate door scheduling and you can just change the doors on one floor and they will update.

3. You can group some walls and objects(never wall based objects, unfortunately) For example our closet arrangement is grouped and copied, mirrored throughout the project, so is the bathroom layout.

4. Furniture is done using groups also and on a workset that is off by default, if you are careful positioning your groups origin(typicaly I move it to the the intersection of the center of the hall and the gridline at the center of the party wall, you will be able to "swap out" groups, ie double queen for single king.

5. I've grouped the stair towers, but have run into problems with them. So what I find is when I run into a problem, I have to delete all but one instance of the group, make the change then copy/paste the group around again. Stinks but its really doesn't take that long.

There are more and if the moderators will copy this to tips and tricks we could start a thread of groups do's and don'ts and get a very helpful list started. Please chime in Adsk

[bclarch]

[quote:eae051a1bf="bclarch"]We played with Revit for awhile then decided to just jump in on one project. Worked for us. We decided on that approach based on the idea that we could always export out to Autocad to finish up if we got into a bind. Didn't have to though.

How did you plan on exporting and going back to Acad?[/quote:eae051a1bf]

We figured that if we got bogged down we would just export all of the drawing views (plans, elevations, sections) as dwg files and work on them natively in Autocad. We figured that this would have allowed us to catch up by turning a one person Revit job into a multi-person Acad project. As a one man band this option doesn't offer you quite the same safety net in terms of multplying available man hours. However, it should still allay some of your fears since you know that starting a project in Revit doesn't necessarily mean that you have to finish it in Revit. You won't be painting yourself into a corner.

You mentioned that you mostly do hotels. There are some threads on how to set up projects that incorporate typical unit plans and multiple similar floors includiong a recent thread based on a class given at Autodesk University. You should search for these threads and use the info as a guideline on how to approach such a project.

Good luck.