Project North / True North

[mikemck]

I have read all the posts I can find related to this and I am still having problems.

I created the site based on a linked AutoCAD drawing oriented to True North. The View Properties setting is for True North.

At this point True North and Project North are the same.

What I have read seems to assume that you started the project set to Project North and want to rotate the site to True North.

But, my site is already True North. I don't want to rotate it. I want the building plans rotated to project north.

Everything I have tried rotates the site.

Mike

[papurajx]

If your True North and Project are the same, why do you want to rotate your site?

[mikemck]

They are currently set the same in Revit. I don't want them to be the same. Everything I try to do to spread them apart moves True North.

I don't want to move true north, I want to move project north.

Mike

[papurajx]

Are you able to change the 'True Norht' to 'Project North' under the view properties?

[beegee]

Project North is always fixed to the top of your monitor. True North is the only orientation that can be moved.

[mikemck]

I want Project north at the top of the screen when the view is set to "Project North" and I want True North at the top of the screen when the view is set to "True North"

Isn't that the purpose of the two settings?

Let's assume the difference between them is 10 degrees.

It seems like Revit wants me to start the project in Project North.

I didn't realize that and I linked the AutoCAD site engineers drawing that had True North straight up. I created the site view with it set to True North. I don't want to rotate this view because it is already correctly shown.

But, the building on the site view is rotated 10 degrees (as it is on the site.)

What I want to do now is adjust Project North so that the building views are shown correctly.

But, since I started the project in True North, anything I do to try and set "Project North" changes the True North setting so that the actual true north direction is 10 degrees off.

Is this clear? It seems hard to even discuss this, let alone solve my problem in Revit.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Mike

[beegee]

Yes, it can get confusing.


Open a plan view and set the orientation to True North using the View Properties Orientation dialog. Now use Setting, Locations and Co ordinates – Rotate this Project True North. Rotate the project graphically or enter the angle.( 10° in your example ) Having done that return to the View properties and change to Orientation project North. The plan is now aligned across the sheet correctly

Open the site plan and check its View properties – if set the true North the plan will be 10° skewed in that view. This is graphically correct since true north and project north are now set correctly. To get the Site Plan to read with “ true North “ to the monitor top you need to rotate the view. Turn on the crop region and select rotate and move the angle clockwise to achieve the desired result.

[Mr Spot]

For people that often have this problem where they begin drawing before setting up a project and true north. It may be an idea to set your template file plans so they are all defaulted to true north. That way it should be easier to rotate to the way you wish to work for your project North later.

HTH.

[sbrown]

All you really need to remember is you never rotate your building. You alway rotate your site to your building, then using the rotate to true north tool you rotate it all back to true north. Or as James pointed out after you rotate the dwg, you can use the aquire coordinates tool and then revit will automatically set true north based on the acad file.

[narlee]

On another thread, someone noted that rotating the crop box will re-orient the "Project North." However, if you change the view setting to "True North" then back to "Project North" your new "Project North" setting is lost. Odd.

[sbrown]

rotating the crop just rotates the view, it is a totaly flexible rotate, not project based just view based.

The original posters problem is he started "real world" true north, so now all you need to do is fake it, in your mind just switch true north and project north. Views set to project north in your project are now actually true north, now go to a view that is set to true north, and using the tools >location coordinates>rotate to true north, rotate the value you want. Now set all views that you want oriented this way to true north(which is now your project north) and your set.

[narlee]

Thanks, SBrown. I was aware. And then, for shadow studies, I need to rotate back to correct True North.

[sbrown]

You dont' ever have to actually rotate back, there are settings in the rendering tab for the true north direction too.

[Rhythmick]

All you really need to remember is you never rotate your building. You alway rotate your site to your building, then using the rotate to true north tool you rotate it all back to true north. Or as James pointed out after you rotate the dwg, you can use the aquire coordinates tool and then revit will automatically set true north based on the acad file.
I'm finding this to be quite irritating that I cannot take my building and tweak the rotation or location without toying with the site that is already set to true north with site - specific components inserted. When I rotate the true north the components (trees) don't stay coordinated with the lot lines, nor do the boundry line tags.
Wouldn't the majority of building rotations and relocations be better served by rotating and moving the building and leaving all the site features pinned as in the real world, meaning they exist where they are and the building needs to be fitted (and tweeked) to the site?
Is there a way to select all the components of the building and move them around without all the constraint issues?

[Alex Page]

Just read last post, so this may have been said before.......we never have the site in the main model, we ALWAYS link it in, therefore in the site model to rotate the house is a piece of p*ss, then using shared coordinated, True North updates in the main model and also site rotation.
Once you get used to it, it does seem the easiest way. Only real problem for us is that 3d dwfs dont work with linked models

[Wes Macaulay]

The problem with rotating the building is that ALL the relationships between objects get regenerated -- which can be a nasty process. One trick that people use is to group all the 3D objects and then rotate the group if you're serious about rotating the building away from project north. The sooner in the project you do this, the better!

If you're not linking the site in (I rarely do) then rotate the site and trees and property lines, etc. leaving the building in place.

And yes, rotating the crop regions allows the view to be rotated on any angle you like -- good for doing larger scale plans for wings of projects that really are on an angle from project north but which you want to show orthogonally on the page.

[Rhythmick]

Alex,

Your suggestion sounds like a possible solution for me. I will give it a go and learn those proceedures - Thanks.

[Wes Macaulay]

I understand some of the reasons why people link the site in, but I hate having to go to another file to edit the topography! And with linked files you don't have as much visibility control either... so why do any of you link in the site?

[Rhythmick]

Is it possible once the project is complete or further along the linked site could be imported or pasted into the project in the correct possition?

[Wes Macaulay]

Oh ya -- no problem at all - move, twist, raise, lower... we had a huge project where we linked the site (to keep the model as light as possible), then copied it into the model later because we had control issues. (I have a lot of control issues!)

As a result I'm all for not linking in the site, unless it's shared between several Revit projects.

[Rhythmick]

[QUOTE=(I have a lot of control issues!)

[/QUOTE]LOL - I'll have DEVO - "Uncontrollable Urge" going through my head the rest of the night.
In looking through the help sections on the proceedure, it appears this may be a solution for me, I'll take the plunge and see where I end up!

[brentcarlson892079]

I did a search for this and when I was reading the threads, I got an idea to try this.

I just started a project with what I thought was project north, but I decided I should change this to fit the sheets better (much taller than wide on the project north).

I too had problems wanting to rotate project north.

I have already set up the property lines with the correct degree, min, secs.
I think this was what tripped me up on rotating project north.

But Here's how I did it!!!

First I made a new property line by sketching the old one.
Then I deleted the old one (made by the table)
Then I rotated everything to the new 'Plan North'
I then re-setup the True North
Lastly, I changed the property lines to read as a Table.

Keep in mind that this project was very new (only site data and exterior walls.
Tomorrow, I'll try this on a project that's further along.

Brent Carlson

[Rhythmick]

.......we never have the site in the main model, we ALWAYS link it in, therefore in the site model to rotate the house is a piece of p*ss, then using shared coordinated, True North updates in the main model and also site rotation.
Thank you Alex, this is enabling me to make adjustments and explore alternate locations and rotations effortlessly.

[beegee]

If the site boundaries have been set up by a table, Revit assumes that True North is known and correct and does not allow the site to be rotated using the Rotate this Project to True North tool. Everything else will rotate though !

[John Anderson]

Ahaa! Thanks Begee & Brent. I still have 2 hairs left on my head ....

[jarkko.rauvanlahti]

I truly understand your problems -gone through them and since sites are made normally only once it's every time the same pain trying to figure out PN and TN..

My simple question is - Why is this so complicated? Why don't we have True North that can be rotated around what ever point you like to be the "center". This is normally done only once.

And plan views are really what they names are - it's a _monitor_ view that can be rotated in what ever way you like and aligned them to what ever wall or object on the building you like while drawing. These changes wouldn't touch the "coordinates" inside the model since it would be done purely by what's seen on monitor - pretty much the same what is already done at 3d window. And you could name some of the rotations as Project views 1,2... to be used later or at sheets.

Back to your question - since you are linking the site to the model. Make the model and use Project North while working, make site into the real coordinates and use True North (I usually do the topo using 2d Acad-files), first link the model to the site and place it on the right spot and orientation, share the coordinates to the model file, open up model and link the site to it and it goes to the right place. Spot elevation can be used to adjust the right level of the model on the site.

[MartyC]

This is driving me nuts..........

I have a project oriented to True North, which places the building a bit over 15 degrees clockwise from TN. I select Project North and the whole damn thing rotates a further 60 degrees clockwise.........not 15 degfrees counter clockwise.

I have read all the archived posts, and it all sounds like Autocad speak..............sorry I have forgotten how to do that.

Why isnt there a choice in the settings menu to both rotate and set True North, and rotate and set Project North and avoid all the confusion.

Now has anyone got a simple solution/description of this please.

I have True North set, site and building angled 15degree to the east, no worries. I want to now set Project North with the building and site oriented with North up the screen, ie rotated counter clockwise 15 degrees to the west.

Oh, and by the way, when I do an interior rendering with scene derived from a plan oriented to True North, the floor tile pattern is rotated 15 degrees.....!!!!

Am I just temporarily challenged or is this really as difficult as it seems.?

Tanks CheersM

[Steve_Stafford]

Is the building modelled rotated to true north?

[Mr Spot]

Revit assumes that you are going to model the building as per project north... True north can then be set at a later date... If you've drawn parts of the building in true north orientation then they will need to be rotated back to how you actually want to draw...

[MartyC]

Is the building modelled rotated to true north?

Yes Steve, modelled to true north, I modelled the building before getting site boundary direction info from surveyor. Therefore building is modelled up/down the screen, but its main axis is at about 15 deg. off north in reality.

Have explored every combination of deg/min/sec to define rotation between TN and PN. TN displays no worries, when switching to PN whole project rotates about 68 deg c/wise.....??

I need to define PN so that floor textures run parallel with walls for rendering........!!

I realise that the project should have been started in PN view, but the working back has fried my brain cells!

Chris, my Revit defaults to True North when commencing work, hence the stuff-up. I have set true north, no worries at this late date, but I have a problem defining project north now from true north. I dont want to set true north to an incorrect value as I need that for site plans etc. I do want Project North for all other drawings and renderings especially as interior textures appear to align with project north.

???!!??!!!****! Probably need more coffee.

CheersM

[GuyR]

further 60 degrees clockwise.........not 15 degfrees counter clockwise.


Sounds like you've rotated the project 15degrees 4 times :-) rotation is cumulative not absolute. Go to the tools->rotate project and in the toolbar along the top it will tell you what the current angle of rotation is.

HTH,

Guy

[MartyC]

Clearly there is no solution. Project view cannot be set if building and site modelled/located in True North view. I wish to have the project set correctly, althiough I know I can fudge-it as suggested throughout the archive, this compromises the project.

Beware anyone commencing modelling a project with True North set in plan views--DONT! Ensure all views are oriented to Project North before starting otherwise you could lose 12 hours+ trying to work a solution.

People who write help files, if there is some logical work-back, fix or basic rule, write about it. All included instructions are based on wild assumptions that the building was mysteriously modelled correctly, although orientation is also never mentioned as a primary requirement (at least not where I could find it). There is no work-back or fix included, no other way than the assumed way.

My only solution to ensure my documentation is correct is to dump about $10,000.00 of work and start again! Not happy but I have learnt a basic rule. (A note to Adesk, this can be the cost to the user of deficient help files)

CheersM

[Steve_Stafford]

Can you post the floor plan? I'm still not following the bldg's shape and how it relates to the site, sorry. In one paragraph it sounds like you say that the bldg is oriented how you wanted to draw it regardless of the site, then another it doesn't.

If your bldg is not oriented how you want it for drafting purposes (project north) you need to rotate the project, bldg and annotation etc. This should be doable though maybe highly inconvenient. Once rotated you can use Rotate Project North as intended.

Or...if you can live with the terminology being backwards, it seems to me you could use the True North as Project and vice versa? Maybe I'm not thinking it through completely?

[MartyC]

Hi Steve, thanks for the quick reply, and you must be up late.

Here is a screen shot of the project oriented to TN. Needs to be rotate 15*54'39" counter-clockwise. to PN. This can be done, but only once as when switching from PN-TN its ok, but then back to PN the whole project rotates either 47*44'07" or 68*38"38" clockwise depending on the angle settings in rototate proj/TN.

The project will return to the correct at TN when selected, but PN is then set at the odd angles as above.....

I have tried every combination of setting I can think of. The radial ref planes are a record of the outcomes to find a logic.

I still give up. There should be a simpler way/command, like 'rotate and set TN, rotate and set PN' - finish!!!


CheersM

[Mr Spot]

I'm still confused... :confused:

So when the view is set to Project North is it drawn as you want to document it/place on sheets?

If yes, then all is good and its just a simple matter of getting your head around rotating true north...

If no, then you need to rotate the entire project until its displaying the way you want to document it in true north.

Once you have project north setup how you want it, you can start worrying about true north again...

HTH. Sorry if you already know this, just trying to clarify things a bit.

[sbrown]

draw you building orthagonally = project north = easy model creation / documentation.
insert site dwg, check angle, then rotate site dwg to align with project north.
then relocate/rotate true north back to that angle, set site plan to true north where needed. thats it.

[aaronrumple]

What they really need to do is make a true north/plan north arrow so you could just place it on the plan and it would set up the correct orientation. The whole backward rotation thing even gets me each time I use it.

[MartyC]

Guys, Guys, Guys,

Plan as shown is at TN.

PN needs to be 15* approx Counter clockwise.

I want TN and PN to be view options in all sheets. ie, in any plan, go to 'view properties' and flick back and forth between TN and PN all day if I wish - without the plan pis**ing off in some random direction and fixing itself there.

I can fix TN no prob. PN pis**es off at a random angle.

I can rotate plan to correct PN, set TN, go to PN - toggle to TN -noworries, toggle to PN plan pis**es of at ianappropriate angle.

PN is not at TN, TN is not at PN, there is 15* approx between the two. And no I cant just treat TN as PN, because if I try to do an interior render the floor tiles are skewed at the same 15* or 45* approx angle. I need to do some interior renderings. I cannot do these without the orientation correct because the floor tiles present a lovely diamond pattern which I , and the client do not want.

No I dont wish to fudge it.

Yes I have tried every bleeding obvious combination of settings.

No I am not a beginner, Yes I know I should have started the project with all plan views and entire template set at PN, yes I have read all the posts, yes I have done all the OBVIOUS things, no I havent rotated the project 4 times in one direction.

There are a number of threads here on this topic, I suspect many with this prob simply accept the compromise of rotating the crop region to suit the view orientation. This is no prob until you want to render a rectilinear floor pattern and the fudge is revealed.

I am seeking for myself and anyone who is frustrated with this un-intuitive condition an easy solution, a clear explanation of the logic or a set rule to rectify the problem - that is conclusive and works.

But thanks all for the input so far, there has to be a clear answer out there.

CheersM

[sbrown]

Please don't take offese, I dont think there is a clear answer, you learned the hardway. I've never seen the PN jumping around as you describe and I made the same mistake you have made when I first used revit it only made sense to me to build in the real world orientation. My solution was to use callouts and rotate them, worked fine as long as I made sure on the first one I got the angle of rotation exact. I'm still not sure why you can't just pretend true n is p n. As for renderings, you can fix the shadow in the rendering settings box.

[Lashers]

Marty, I am probably being simplistic . .sorry if so. I created a project with TN set, drew the walls ortho. to screen. Then in the Tools- Project Position/Orientation, I rotated 25deg. When I changed the orientation in the properties to PN it came back Ortho to screen.

Is there more to it than that, regards to how it renders or something? I sence it is more complex, but I thought I would see if there was anything I could do as 10K is ALOT to have to redo . . .

Hope you got it to work anyway.

[MartyC]

Thanks all of you for the genuine assistance. Yes, I learnt the hard way. It would all be fine if I didnt have to render every damn room to confirm the finishes etc. for the client.

I have started the project again as it needs fine resolve to the structure etc. so probably a good thing.

I suspect that as GuyR suggested the rotations are cumulative, and with all the rotating and returning in every direction I got the project seriously screwed. For example it got to the point where I would graphically rotate in one direction then it would regenerate the plan in the totally opposite direction 90 degrees out!!??!!

I will get the logic shortly, and when I do I will write a tutorial!!

Looks like work over the weekend, so no drinking and partying.

CheersM

[Wes Macaulay]

Marty, see if you can group the entire project and rotate the building so that PN is straight up (if that's what you want).

Once you've got PN set, switch to TN. If TN isn't pointing the right way, rotate it -- backwards, as Aaron noted -- and that should set you right.

[milliharpreet]

On another thread, someone noted that rotating the crop box will re-orient the "Project North." However, if you change the view setting to "True North" then back to "Project North" your new "Project North" setting is lost. Odd.

I am confused in project north and true north. I also want to know, when we set georaphy site, where it's north lies, is it co-incidence with project North?