Interesting article about Revit and ADT2004

[Richard McCarthy]

http://www.caduser.com/reviews/reviews.asp?a_id=168



What do you think?

[MartyC]

What a bloody boring article!

Yes folks, how many improvements can you make to a Morris Minor to make it like a BMW (you British Empire people know what I'm talking about :) ). I personally think the comparisons between ADT and Revit are becoming a bit tedious, Revit people have Revit cos they are smart, and invariably are real architects :wink: Passionate ADT'ers are stuck in a cage that offers no escape...........bogged down with Xref's and work-arounds, caught in the mouse-wheel of production.......looking for design utopia, but not knowing where to look.....searching the sky for an answer but only seeing grey clouds.......................... :(

So, they fixed something in ADT, cool!

And a very merry Christmas to you all............(what am I doing here, its Christmas day :shock: .........pass me another chardonnay :? )

Cheers M

[hj]

wow...

:wink:

[mlgatzke]

I agree. The article is pretty blah. Who's the intended audience? If it's ADT users, you didn't respond to any of their concerns and if the intended audience is Revit users, there wasn't any specifically helpful information in there. If the intended audience was someone else, who could it be. The article seems quite worthless - for just about anyone - especially in a publication.

[Scott D Davis]

At the moment though Autodesk is upgrading everything with a vengeance - except Revit, it seems.

Does the author of this article live under a rock? Supposedly this was written Nov/Dec 2003.....and he doesn't know that Revit 6.0 just came out?

[Dean Camlin]

Revit's sluggish development?

Huh?

--Anyway, I tend to take with a grain of salt anything I read in which the author (and his editors) doesn't know the difference between it's and its. (Or :oops: is that just an Americanization of the English language?)

[dzambaz1763]

i dont like when people spit on ADT.
No need to make ADT look stupid so Revit will look better - Revit IS good.

I have just one question to MartyC : How well do you really know ADT?
reading your sentence : "they fixed something in ADT,cool" gives me a feeling that you havent even seen it.
i dont believe that it is necassary to build antagonistic clans here.

Revit is fantastic technology, unique in many things, superior to the existing products on the market and will grow even stronger, no doubt in that, but ADT exists and responds to the needs of many users today that are happy to have it.

the article in question, its true, hasn't got much sense the way it is structured.

my humble opinion,sorry if this is too serious for you guys,but i just dont see the point of comments of the kind

[MartyC]

"they fixed something in ADT,cool" gives me a feeling that you havent even seen it.


I Spit on ADT :lol:

No I dont, sheesh man, that post was tongue-in-cheek. We can afford to be T-I-C here because so many people write such dumb articles about Revit in relation to other packages that dont have a bloody clue.

I am waiting for the article that states 'ADT has a new feature that goes some small way toward the spectacular functionality of Revit, and this will help the user be far less stressed, and far happier'

Yeah, I have used ADT, and yeah I have used ACad (for years...yuk!).

Look we can all do spectacular architecture on any package, Revit people are just happier and more inspired as is clearly evidenced by the posts on this forum. I know I am.

'antagonistic clan', no mate I'm just saying... 'hey, come on, get happy' :D :D

Cheers M

[gregplett]

I have been using Autocad since R12, and currently use ADT 2005. I have been interested in Revit since the day it was purchased by Autodesk and have even started using it a few times. I find Revit very cute and excellent to wow the crowds that are only interested in quick 3D pictures. When it comes to drawing custom details to actually make this pretty building a reality, Revit comes up short. I have attended a few online Revit seminars and the question usually comes up if Revit was used to do all the detail development in the working drawings. The presenter normally states that "Revit was used along with Autocad to work out all the details." If Revit is so wonderful, why does Autocad always have to be used to do the real work?

To me it seems that the Revit people are living in a dream world, and spend most of their time trying to prove that they are the smarter people because they no longer use ADT. (I am not saying this is fact, it is just the way it appears to me.)

I think ADT is extremely clumsy and not user friendly at all, and I would love to switch to the clean, user friendly concept that Revit offers, but until Revit drastically improves on its basic drafting tools to develop custom details that can't be generated automatically, I am not interested.

[bclarch]

... but until Revit drastically improves on its basic drafting tools to develop custom details that can't be generated automatically, I am not interested.
Revit actually has very strong drafting & detailing abilities. Unfortunately the tutorials and training give this short shrift so people don't realize it until they get more hands-on experience with the program. However, if you choose to miss the boat, that is your prerogative. As you you strain your back rowing the skiff ADT along in choppy seas we will kindly wave as the Revit sloop knifes cleanly and effortlessly through the waters. To each his own.

[trent59822]

I've can't understood how some people think that the drafting tools in Revit are sub par. Our office has used Revit since version 3.1. It was true at that point there were a lot of things lacking. But now, I have trouble finding things that cannot be done.

Our detailing time in Revit 7 now is half what it was in AutoCAD 12. I can't claim to know ADT at all. But between AutoCAD 12 and Revit 7 is not even a fair comparison.

What specifically is lacking? I'm sure the powers that be would be interested in what you feel is missing.

[bowlingbrad]

We are about to begin detailing our first project. Could you give us tips and / or examples of your idea of best practices?

[Scott D Davis]

Greg,

Many people still use AutoCAD for detailing because they have built libraries of details in AutoCAD over the years. This is not to say that all of this detailing cannot be done in Revit, but many times it makes sense for companies to use what they have.

Revit itself is a very good 2D detailer, and some examples of this have been posted here in the past.

[aaronrumple]

Start developing a good library of detail components. It takes time to build a good library, but well worth the effort.

Add a good selection of filled regions and fill patterns to your template. This way you don't have to stop drafting to build them for the first time.

When in a hurry - use detail lines and be sure to group them so you can use that as a drafting object other places in the project. Example: We flashing from linework and might place a mortar net will a filled region and then add a wood sill detail and anchor bolt detail for a wall detail. Group these items and you can then use them on other sections as a detail group.

You don't always have to show the model. Turn off elements when it is faster to draw them. A good example might be a detail of a wall section. We don't use overly detailed window families. While in the detail view we can turn off the windows, leaving walls, floors, etc. Then place a drafting detail where the window should be.

Develop a good import template for your existing AutoCAD details. Clean up your AutoCAD details before importing then. Use the Overkill tool and purge unused objects.

[BillyGrey]

Excellent advise Aaron...

Also, the book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1401850499/102-9078766-1265707?v=glance
Jim Balding And Lay Christopher's effort contains allot of great tutorial examples and advise on data transition between DWG and Revit.

Amazon.com still has this listed as a book dealing with Revit 5.5 (which was a MacIntosh vaporware release, if I remember correctly ;) ), but it's pointed at rel 6, and is valid in release 7. It sits on my desktop.

Never mind the "myth" surrounding Revit's 2d detail capabilities... I just wanted to add that since switching from ADT/ACAD, I also realize that Revit is very cute/friendly, and my clientele are certainly "wowed" by it's superlative 3d modeling and design study capabilities.

That is a clear competitive advantage for me, has resulted in landing contracts I would otherwise have struggled with in the mire of the mundane, and will continue to be my one of my biggest assets in terms of detailing and CD production.

[bclarch]

We are about to begin detailing our first project. Could you give us tips and / or examples of your idea of best practices?
In addition to the wise comments above you should become familiar with the "Edit Cut Profile" tool. You also need to be able to think "negatively", by which I mean using the linework tool and filled regions to make things "disappear" or change selectively where appropriate. One thing that is easily forgotten about the linework tool is that you can use the blue grips to adjust the effect so that only a portion of the line is affected. This is very useful when things overlap, such as where a rafter and ceiling joist come together at the wall. You can make the overlapping portion of the edge of the rafter or joist show as a hidden line but leave the exposed edge solid.

[MikeJarosz]

If Revit is so wonderful, why does Autocad always have to be used to do the real work?

Because we have 20 people who know Revit and 380 who know ACAD.

[aaronrumple]

To me it seems that the Revit people are living in a dream world, and spend most of their time trying to prove that they are the smarter people because they no longer use ADT. (I am not saying this is fact, it is just the way it appears to me.)

I think ADT is extremely clumsy and not user friendly at all, and I would love to switch to the clean, user friendly concept that Revit offers, but until Revit drastically improves on its basic drafting tools to develop custom details that can't be generated automatically, I am not interested.

A 2D drafting shootout. Revit vs. ADT. Any time, any place. I keep making that offer to area ADT users for our local users group. So far - no takers.

I live in the "Show Me" state. Show me a detail task I can't do as fast or faster in Revit. ;-)

[Joef]

I

What specifically is lacking? I'm sure the powers that be would be interested in what you feel is missing.

Try to offset a spline or an ellipse. You cannot do it. The Revit tools are good, but AutoCad has been doing 2d drafting for a long time and has a lot of good tools. Polylines are handy for getting areas and lengths. What if you want to estimate tile on a back splash. Area tools don't work in elevation. Use a polyline. There are lots of time when it is easier to just export a plan or a section and use the tools in AutoCAD. Hopefully in time the Revit 2d tools will improve but the Revit 3d tools are so good it is not a major beef.

[J. Grouchy]

I must say, it would be nice to have polylines in Revit...tabbing doesn't always give me the correct result.

One of the best things about drafting in Revit is if you have put together even just a basic model of the building, you already have the framework on top of which you can do the detailing. You don't really have that in AutoCAD. It's such a relief to not have to draw a plan, xref it into my elevations, draw construction lines and then remember to change it in elevation if I change it in plan. In Revit a slight movement can be easily caught in your detail drawings....assuming you cut into the model for your detail drawings.

When I first looked at Revit and detailing I thought "this is really gonna suck". But I quickly changed my mind and I've already discovered numerous ways to draw the same detail...a flexibility that AutoCAD never allowed.
As for ADT, we never used the full functionality (we have ADT3) simply because it was more hassle than it was worth...but I'm certain it never coordinated all the views and annotations like Revit does. I can't speak for later releases of ADT.

[Scott D Davis]

Because we have 20 people who know Revit and 380 who know ACAD.
...and those 20 are now doing the work of the 380, right? ;)

[fernando]

my example
actually I'm working in a firm with 4 ADT operators, after i introduced Revit there, i first converted one of them to Revit
actually the 2 of us, do all the work in Revit, including all the detailing and CD, to don't leave the other people without working , our boss put them working in plain Autocad, drawing the first studies of plans and elevations, so they give us the planning just corrected by the architects..and we draw all the drawing in a hurry, still having some time to create some rendering's

details? elevations, sections, 3d - ours drawings rock's...great Revit

[cadkiller]

Group;

I have to say that when it comes to details, ADT has many great features that Revit doesn't presently have. One major feature that comes to mind is the automatic keynote annotations that greatly helps for labeling objects. Revit doesn't have this automatic labeling capability as far as I know. You have to manually type in all your text annotations for all the objects. This is a much needed feature for construction details IMO. You have to be a very good typist to quickly annotate all the details with labels.

[aaronrumple]

ADT keynoting isn't all that different from Revit keynoting. Revit has the possibility of being much more sophisticated, but it does a fine job now. ADT just provides an out of the box database of notes that you either accept as is or customize.

We already had this list from our AutoCAD setup, so getting that into Revit was pretty simple.

Revit really just needs two small additions to make keynotes rock. The ability for the multi-category tag to attach to a detail. The addition of sheet filtering for tags.

[cadkiller]

Aaron;

I tried the keynote for Revit and wasn't able to figure it out. I checked the help files and I'm almost finished reading Jim Balding's book for Revit and couldn't find any mention of how to use the keynotes. Can you or anyone else explain how to use this feature?

I forgot to mention ADT's merge, obsure, shrinkwrap and napkin sketch features. Don't get me wrong I like Revit very much and I also like many of the new features for ADT. That's why I purchased Revit and still have my ADT subscription. I can't wait to see the next release for both products.

I have to say that I'm a bit properties crazy with Revit at the moment. I wish I could have property dialog boxes open at all times on my second monitor to get instantanious readings of my settings for all my properties. I also wish I could get previews of the content that I'm selecting, before I select them and insert them into the model.

[beegee]

Ed,

Have you read Skisouth's Tutorial on producing keynotes (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=14321&highlight=keynote)?

[cadkiller]

Beegee;

Thanks for the link.

Wow a 9 page tutorial on how to create keynotes. ADT has this out of the box and it's automatic. It's linked to the 16 divisions of the CSI. You select the keynote leader command and attach it to the object and that's it. You even have 3 options of the content for the keynotes for what to display. They also give you a keynote legend that is created automatically.

With Revit you have a database for all the objects and they should work automatically when you select an object. Why do I have to create and select which keynote for what object? That's where a mistake can take place. It should be automatic, like Revit Magic! Don't you think or am I wrong in saying this and missed something in the tutorial?

[Scott D Davis]

I also wish I could get previews of the content that I'm selecting, before I select them and insert them into the model.

You can if you use Windows Explorer to load your content. Set display to thumbnails, and you can see a preview of the object. To load, just drag and drop into your project. Often this is faster that the Load dialog box.

[beegee]

Personally, I would not want any software telling me what note to place as a keynote for an object.

I worked in lots of different offices and not one of them had the same approach to annotating drawings.

But if you did want to use ADT's keynotes, Aaron suggested a way that you could do that.



>>>They also give you a keynote legend that is created automatically.

With Revit you have a database for all the objects and they should work automatically when you select an object. Why do I have to create and select which keynote for what object? That's where a mistake can take place. It should be automatic, like Revit Magic! Don't you think or am I wrong in saying this and missed something in the tutorial?

[Wes Macaulay]

In talking to many architectural firms in our area, the common response I get to the ADT keynoting utility was slight confusion. 'You mean we pick a block, and the note on it will always be the same?' The idea being that the label on the block will almost never be the same twice.

There must be firms out there whose details ARE always annotated with the same text for the same block... they're just not around here!

Once you know the ADT detailing system, it does work as intended. ADT detailing may be faster if your labels are always the same, but Revit users always have the building model as a live link for reference as they develop their details; I think that's a great plus over ADT.

[Scott D Davis]

I think cadkiller has a good point, though. Should the keynote be part of the object? There could be Type notes and Instance notes. Properties already contains parameters such as "comments", maybe there should be a "keynote" catagory. Go to the properties of the object, and type it in. Then the tags could number automatically like a door or window tag. Tag the object, schedule it, and put your keynote schedule on a sheet. Type Keynotes would obviously be for the general note about the object, while an instance note would allow you to be more specific about a certain piece.

Then, there needs to be a 'tool tip' option, so as you hover over an object, the tooltip at your cursor shows what the keynote text is. That way you could easily move around the drawing, and see if the keynotes are what you intended, rather than going back and forth to the schedule to see.

[Henry D]

Scott I really like your scenario for keynotes. I I've always wanted the keynote to be part of the object. Can we vote on it?

[cadkiller]

Group;

At least you have a full database with ADT that you can build from and customize as needed. With Revit you have to start from scratch and make your own like the tutorial suggested or use the ADT's keynote database (if you have ADT) like Aaron suggested. You also have to manually attach a leader to all the keynotes. Aaron mentioned that they could easily apply the keynote database from ADT; but didn't explain how to do this. I guess you will need MS Access to modify this database and extract its content to use with Revit.

Another nice feature that ADT has is the ability to insert a field into an mtext object, a schedule or a dimension. This field feature is very powerful and allows for a vast array of custom content.

I'm sure many of you can come up with features that Revit has that ADT doesn't; but they both have their good and bad things that we all can come up with. I guess the battle will continue for years to come.

[Cathy Hadley]

I think the ADT2005 detailing functionally is great, but would that be reason enough for me to use the software over Revit? NO. Personally, I reuse my Acad Detail library as appropriate in Revit, but all project specific details I do in Revit and wouldn't dream of doing it any other way... (tho I will admit I did on my first project until I became accustomed to the tools), many of my clients do it, as suggested for manpower reason alone. We are training like crazy here to get everyone up to speed.

Do I wish Revit had something similar ? YES .. for people who want out of the box solutions. But I agree that most firms I have been working with, each have their own personalized approach to keynotes, already in place. Getting their existing keynotes into Revit doesn't not require Access its a rather simple .txt file.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the detailing & keynoting actually implemented into the ADT2005 release? and not 2004? My point? It took a number of years to get it to work right and they started with a working (?) Softdesk version of it. I am willing to bet that Revit will evolve in this area just as it has in so many others.

Anyway as for the battle continuing... I think this is Autodesk's point exactly. Different (key)strokes for different folks. It doesn't have to be a battle at all, I am perfectly happy using my "cute" little program, and if you and others are happy, productive and making money.. good for you. For me and my experience... I enjoy feeling more like an architect than a computer programmer *geek* (said with love!!).

Just my .02

CZH

[cadkiller]

You can if you use Windows Explorer to load your content. Set display to thumbnails, and you can see a preview of the object. To load, just drag and drop into your project. Often this is faster that the Load dialog box.
Scott;

Not all of the objects are in the library for preview with explorer. A few example good example are wall, stairs and railings types. If you have various different walls, stairs and railings you can't see them untill you load them into the model as far as I know. How can I get all my wall, stair and railing types in my library for preview with explorer?

[aaronrumple]

These of course are system objects and do not exist outside off a Revit project. Are you suggesting a system of tool palettes like ADT where you need to make png files and edit the xml properties and then have to fool with distribution of the palettes and catalogs on a network system? Stuffing all those preview's inside the Revit project would really bloat the file size.

[cadkiller]

I enjoy feeling more like an architect than a computer programmer *geek* (said with love!!).

Just my .02

CZH
Cathy;

I'm not saying to use one over the other just trying to point out some nice features that ADT has and would like to see them in Revit as well.

How many releases does ADT have verus Revit and how long has ADT been around and the same for Revit?

As far as being a computer programming geek, setting up all these families isn't such a designers dream. It requires some programming in a sense to setup all the parameters to work properly.

[cadkiller]

These of course are system objects and do not exist outside off a Revit project. Are you suggesting a system of tool palettes like ADT where you need to make png files and edit the xml properties and then have to fool with distribution of the palettes and catalogs on a network system? Stuffing all those preview's inside the Revit project would really bloat the file size.
Aaron;

I would just like to be able to see a preview of all the content. I'm not sure how one would do it; but maybe they can allow for the system objects to be saved in the library folder.

[aaronrumple]

ADT 1 (useless)
ADT 2/2i (pretty sad - 2i was just a compatability release.)
ADT 3/3.3 (First that you could atleat use some of the features, but a far cry from a full 3D solution, 3.3 was just compatability update.)
ADT 2004 (First real release that started to do what it promised.)
ADT 2005 (Minor upgrade - primarily a compatability release.)

Revit 1-7
Looking back at 2.11 which is still on my system- it was a pretty complete 3D solution from the outset.

So looks like the score is 5 rel. of ADT to 7 of Revit. If you include the point releases of Revit - some of which are arguably as packed with featues as the numbered releases - Revit is far ahead.

[Cathy Hadley]

As far as being a computer programming geek, setting up all these families isn't such a designers dream. It requires some programming in a sense to setup all the parameters to work properly.

I find that it is more in tune with the way I think... what is variable about this geometry? At least for me, and perhaps it is just me, but it has been a much easier task to learn and TRAIN than it was to set up property set definitions, or multiview blocks... the list goes on. I just know that I do not miss writing lisp routines, cleaning up layering issues and dealing with display configurations, etc..

I am certainly NOT saying that there are not some things that couldn't be borrowed from the dwg world, which would be a welcome addition to our world. But lets be very careful what we wish for.

CZH