Groups - Best Practices

[Steve_Stafford]

Scott Brown suggested we copy his list to this forum so here it is:

Using Groups for Unit Plans and repeated design elements - Strategy ideas from a 42 story hotel project.

1. create the unit walls that stack as "full height" ie if floors 1-10 are the same draw floor 1 and have all its walls go from level 1 - 11, that way any change to the first floor is reflected in all other floors.

2. Place your doors (unit doors) on the first floor, then group them all and copy paste align to the next 10 floors(this can be done in one step now in 6.0. This allows for accurate door scheduling and you can just change the doors on one floor and they will update.

3. You can group some walls and objects(never wall based objects, unfortunately) For example our closet arrangement is grouped and copied, mirrored throughout the project, so is the bathroom layout.

4. Furniture is done using groups also and on a workset that is off by default, if you are careful positioning your groups origin(typicaly I move it to the the intersection of the center of the hall and the gridline at the center of the party wall, you will be able to "swap out" groups, ie double queen for single king.

5. I've grouped the stair towers, but have run into problems with them. So what I find is when I run into a problem, I have to delete all but one instance of the group, make the change then copy/paste the group around again. Stinks but its really doesn't take that long.

[christopher.zoog51272]

Scott,

Number 1 is a novel idea, I hadn't thought about that before. Does join geometry work to clean up the floor connection in section, I guess it would right! Awesome, I'm going to try this. :)

[jmedley]

You mentioned on the other group that you start from the first floor and run walls to the top floor. This would not work for the type of hotels and motels that I design.

I always start with the top floor (similar to structural engineering) and work down. The first floor is usually not even similar to the other floors. Usually the floors above the second are the same with some minor variations. The first floor usually consist of restarurants, meeting room, bars etc. forcing us into lots of beams and columns.

I generally start with individual units laid out with autocad (vanilla) with center line of walls and center of halls as base points. I mirror either vertically or horizontially. Unit sizes vary; but generally are the same width. Different front to back dimensions provides variations to elevations etc.

I have tried most of the tutorials in version 5.0 and beginning on the version 6.0 this coming weekend. I am not about to give up, but I still am not comfortable enough with Revit to depend on it.

[Scott D Davis]

If your first floor is different, ie restaurants, lobbies, etc, then just start your unit plans at level 2 and have the walls go all the way up from there. Or maybe a group of 5 floors are the same, and then the next 5 floors are a different plan. You could have walls go from floors 2 to 6, and then a different configuration go from 7 to 12.

If you start at the top and work down, just create your walls on the top floor - lets say that was floor 20. Bottom constraint of walls would be Level 20 and Top constraint would be 21. Get the configuration set the way you want on the top floor, then change the base constraint to a different lower level. The walls would extend down from the top to a lower level.

[theguru7remove1746]

#1 is an instering idea but will you get an accurate estimate of Gyp Bd walls (10 floors of wall missing). it is a different way of looking at the multipule floor/ unit issue. thanks for sharing- DT

edited: I re-read your #1 it will count all the gyp. Apologies, brain slow today--

[sbrown]

#1 was uncomfortable to me at first because I am very rigid in wanting to build in revit as in the real world, but it does work well because the memory usage in revit doesn't care if a wall is 5ft tall or 50'. As for join geometry yes it doesn work, but an easier method in my opinion is to use the new repeating detail component and make a slab detail component.

I'm not really starting on the 1st floor, I'm actually startin on the 4 th floor, the first 3 floors are unique, restaurants, shops, etc.

The idea is the same whatever floor you start on. The only time this won't work is if you don't have stacking floor plans(and if you don't you have a very expensive hotel so you probably have a fee that will support drawing each floor).

One other tip for large projects from AU is to use structural families for floor slabs or other repeating objects(balconies, etc.) this is a huge memory saver and saves time in editing. My plan is that I make the first floor slab real(in-place) then export it and turn it into a struct. family then re-insert and copy to each level. Then if a change is needed, I can make it in the family editor and just reload.

[Richard McCarthy]

I also find that :

1. Use Wall joint tool to unjoin the internal wall joints to Exterior/structural wall (the ones that goes up from level 1-11) will give you much better paste result. (no wall flipping or other anormalies)

2. Use 2D drafted models (eg. Sinks, toilets) and group them will avoid you the headache of those wall dependent 3D objects which usually gets ejected out to some bizzare places when you paste them in groups or using arrays.


3.Do NOT do more than 4 (3 is bare maximum in my opinion) level of nested groups... more than that and you runs the risk of FUBAR if something went wrong.. also, speed is inversely proportional to how many "levels" of nested groups you have in your project. So, group them judiciously, preferably less than 2 level deep. (eg. sofa set one group, then interiors of all the room layout + sofa into another group)

4. Avoid using array to groups... this command usually isn't very accurate when you are arraying unit plans across multiple section of building. And it runs the risk of FUBAR-ing your project. I have successfully doing it many times, but I count myself lucky (many times more, it just go FUBAR ) (also, I like to suggest to the Autodesk Revit developers to fix up the array command. The Array command is by far, the MOST PRODUCTIVE command EVER in the CAD world... it "nX" the productivity level LOL :) I love the array, I consider it the only reason I switch to computer instead of drafting on table (oh, and besides the undo command)


Give us more accurate feedback when pasting and aligning the array, many times, my group objects just refuse or pops out of it's group when arrayed. Also, I like to have the option of turning off ALL RELATIONSHIP in group, that way, objects inside the groups won't try to "seek" objects to attach to like moth to fire..)

[Martin P]

#1 , we have a slightly different approach to this as often the layouts of our rooms are repeated horizontally more than vertically (we dont tend to do anything over 3 storeys). We just give the walls an explicit height, disallow wall joins on ends that may cause problems - and clean up with filled regions. Then group the walls and the doors etc. copy and paste these groups horizontally and vertically.

I like the idea of 1 wall, that makes a lot of sense. if there was floor that was different in the middle you could create an in place family void to cut out the walls on this level. Will definitely give this a go first chance I get. (hoping I ever get to work on something tall :lol: )

[bowlingbrad]

...use the new repeating detail component and make a slab detail component.
...One other tip for large projects from AU is to use structural families for floor slabs or other repeating objects(balconies, etc.) this is a huge memory saver and saves time in editing. My plan is that I make the first floor slab real(in-place) then export it and turn it into a struct. family then re-insert and copy to each level. Then if a change is needed, I can make it in the family editor and just reload.

Scott,
I am wondering if you have 'perfected' this procedure? We are running into issues with the building changing shape and we have to go to each floor and modify the floor slab. All of our balconies are groups and they seem to change fine. What was the reason that the floor slab can't be a group as well?

TIA,
Brad

[sbrown]

I'm not sure what is happening, however my guess is that for the floors to update properly(automatically) they need to be created by picking walls. If you did that on the first floor and then just copy paste aligned to the upperfloors, only the first floor would update if the walls were moved. So the idea posted, is instead of creating the floor as a floor and having to edit it on each level, just acknowledge the fact you will need to edit it manually somewhere and do it in the family editor that way you just reload it and its adone deal.

As for perfecting it, no. Since that post I haven't needed to use it. another option might be to group the floor by itself, then copy paste align it to the other floors, then when you edit it on the first floor in the edit group mode, it will edit everywhere. ONly downside with it not being a sep family is performance when changes are made.

[bowlingbrad]

Thanks Scott.