Detail Linework Is Slow - Please Help :)

[rod.74246]

Hi All :)

Think this is actually my first post but i usually end up here trying to sort out issues. I'm the CAD manager at a medium sized Aussie firm and have been playing with Revit for a year or two. Just recently I managed to convince the company to go on an all out spend and we converted all our licenses to Revit (35 or so). At this stage we are starting to hit that CD stage on a number of our first projects and our initial joy has started to fall away.

Dont get me wrong. We love the program, we have had many issues we have worked through them all. Of course jumping in at the deep end with minimal training and support always does that but the implementation has gone awwsomely and we won;t look back, the results generally have been out of this world.

However we have hit a major problem, particularly with large sized plans and sections. OIn general i have found the 2d drafting component once i got used to it actuallly quicker than ACAD and can't complain. However we have noticed massive lag and refresh / general slow down issues when using detail line work, filled regions and text on model based views. (ie plans and sections) we have been annotating and adding additional info as well as importing consultant drawing elements as 2d linework onto pur plans and the slow down is immense. It seems the more detail lines involved the worse it gets. If we import a whole survey (or even link) the slowdown is immense and almost unworkable.

I am trying to avoid a mass staff revolt at this point and am wondering if anyone else has had these issues. From some of the projects i have seen they are far greater in complexity than what we work on. It really does seem the more detail lines involved the worse it gets. The comparable ACAD drawings are muich quicker to work with as 2d.
9 i am talking about a lot of detail lines here - generally 1:5 to 1:20 details are fine)

Usually i manage to find a toggle or workaround with these issues however this has me stumped and am wondering if it is an inherent issue with the software.

Generally speaking the bulk of my machines are running 3.0+ P4 processors, all a min of 1g ram and 128+ Nvidia cards. The weird thing is it seems to handle 3d elements better than 2d which doesn;t seem right to me.

Heres hoping i am not the only one and there is a fix. I love this software and would hate to have my staff reverting to ACAD for our CD's whioch i am currently fighting to avoid.

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Rod. Check this thread out (+3 pages). http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=18783&highlight=monster

I basically outlined our findings over the years as to the BLOAT caused by DETAIL lines/dwg/in-place families. It's all about creating the families.


Wes. Our smallest project is just short of 90MB. All documentation is done in Revit, not one ounce in acad. We build a stack of families!

There are two significant things we have noticed with big files:
1.Don't model anything in the project (in place families).Rather build the family.
2. Stay away from lines, both model + detail. rather build the family.
3. Reduce the dwg usage. ie We will bring a dwg in to model the topography. Once done the dwg is deleted. Same applies to existing buildings.We have no dwg's in our projects, what so ever!!!!!!

We have found that by eliminating the fore mentioned we have in some cases cleaned and reduced our file sizes up to 25%. Having said that, nothing is spared when it comes to detail. We have sometimes been criticized for over detailing ( and I am proud to say all done in revit!). What does help though is that we have been on Revit since 4.5 so the libraries to chose from are extensive. Families ARE your Friends!

[patricks]

Well there are times when I don't see how it's possible to get around using linework, especially in building and wall sections.

Take for example a section of a brick veneer stud wall. I always show each brick course (using a detail component). For sheathing I usually use a filled region, and of course the insulation batt lines.

Now if there was a way to make brick show each course when cut in section, that would be great. Is that possible?

Also what about when you have some kind of cornice at the top? We will usually make a solid profile to use as a sweep in the model (for elevation purposes) and then just draw the framing behind it in the section.

And then what about things like ceiling transitions or ceiling edges for a "floating" lay-in tile condition? Seems to me like the only way to do that would be an in-place sweep around the edge of the area with the ceiling tile.

[LMSmith]

Have you sent in youf file for support to take a look at? It does sound like something is wrong, so I'd encourage you to do so. When you send it, be sure to include the links. Some things to watch out for are huge dwg imports, fine hatch patterns (dwg or Revit - or any cad program for that matter), and constraints - you don't have a ton of things accidentially locked or EQed, do you? Let me know if you have problems getting help and I'll see what I can do.

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Well there are times when I don't see how it's possible to get around using linework, especially in building and wall sections.

Take for example a section of a brick veneer stud wall. I always show each brick course (using a detail component). For sheathing I usually use a filled region, and of course the insulation batt lines.

Now if there was a way to make brick show each course when cut in section, that would be great. Is that possible?

Also what about when you have some kind of cornice at the top? We will usually make a solid profile to use as a sweep in the model (for elevation purposes) and then just draw the framing behind it in the section.

And then what about things like ceiling transitions or ceiling edges for a "floating" lay-in tile condition? Seems to me like the only way to do that would be an in-place sweep around the edge of the area with the ceiling tile.

What we do is, is build the family with nested detail components. So if you take the cornice, the nested detail is built-in. That way, cut a section anywhere and the detail is there!
As with the ceiling transition. We simply attach the profile to the wall style which has a nested detail component.
We have no Linework/in-place/filled regions/dwg in our projects!!! It's all families and modeling.
All these extra little things, we have found cause, bloat in our projects.

[patricks]

What we do is, is build the family with nested detail components. So if you take the cornice, the nested detail is built-in. That way, cut a section anywhere and the detail is there!
As with the ceiling transition. We simply attach the profile to the wall style which has a nested detail component.
We have no Linework/in-place/filled regions/dwg in our projects!!! It's all families and modeling.
All these extra little things, we have found cause, bloat in our projects.

Well I was talking about a lay-in ceiling that is "floating" in the middle of the space (structure is visible around and above it). There is a product on the market that can attach to the edge of that ceiling grid to give a finished look and is available in various widths up to 12". So say we wanted to use this product in a 4" width around the edge of this "floating" ceiling, so instead of seeing just the thin edge of the grid, you see a 4" tall strip running along the edge (it can be curved or whatever you like). How would you do that any other way than an in-place sweep that follows the edge of the ceiling object in the model?

And then what about a gyp. board soffit with stud framing in that same space? If I draw the gyp. board ceiling in the ceiling plan, and then look at a section, of course I only see the flat area defined by that ceiling object. What about the vertical portion of the soffit, and all the associated stud framing behind it, including metal stud kickers, etc.?

Maybe you should write a tutorial on using familes in projects, I'm sure we could all benefit. ;)

[rod.74246]

Thanks for the info guys. I will have a bit of a play and see how it pans out. It seems a shame though to have to create families externaly for a lot of this.

We have been using the in place families a lot which may also explain some of the slow down issues as well.

In our line of work we don't generally have any standard details that cross over between projects which is unfortunate, (i could see it being a very powerful tool for repetitive sorts of projects.) so we have kinda snuck into a habit of doing everything within the Project file. May have to do an about turn.

[LRaiz]

I suggest that you do not ignore LMSmith's advice and do send your file to support. Every poster has a guess or a suggestion but they have not investigated peculiarities of your file. The price you paid for subscription includes support. Use it. Besides, analysis of your data may help identify and fix a problem that affects other users as well.

[cmahoney]

We'd be happy to investigate the problem you describe. If you are interested in having us do so, please open a Support Request (http://www.autodesk.com/supportrequest). Once the request is created, there is a link that will allow you to attach your project directly to it.


Thanks, we are looking forward to working with you.

[rod.74246]

Thanks for the advice Cmahoney. I did actually forward a CD of the file to our reseller for local support and they are already pointing out a number of issues for us.
One thing i cant complain of so far is the tech support we have been getting when we ask, its been great so far.

But regardless the detail line issue is still a bit of an issue for me. Just for interest we went through the experiment of converting an ACAD drawing file into pure revit detail lines ( less hatches). ACAD working on it has about 10 times the speed of dealing with the number of lines involved. I do have a sneaking suspicion that it probably has something to do with the conversion. Just for interest a large number of our files can't be imported at all due to too many lines in the first place ( revit caps at 10,000)

I know this is probably a very silly idea but i am kinda toying with the idea of using a detail view to draft an entire 2d plan in Revit just to see what the slowdown would actually be.

I do realise this is bit futile, but i do really want to see revit handle 2d just as well as any other program out there just as a backup.

Mainly this is beacause a vast number of refurbishment projects we are supplied with 2d ACAD drawings. What we would have to end up doing is end up doing is re-modelling existing buildings to utilise Revit. What would be great is if there was the possibility of being able to 2d draft utilising existing Acad drawing ( as revit lines) with as much ease as ACAD. Atm, we still retain a number of Acad licenses for this purpose (yay to Revit Series).

[sbrown]

The problem with lines in revit, detail or model is that they aren't "dumb" like autocad. So they are actually worse than model objects. If you take a detail that is all lines each endpoint has a reference and is looking for relationships. even worse each element can be on a workset so every little linesegment maybe editable or not, this has to add overhead to each line and in a worksets job this can get problematic. This is why I strongly beleive in using as little linework as possible. If your really get familiar with detail components almost everything you need can be a component. YOu don't actually build with lines, so we need to start working that way, or at least thats how revit wants us to work. Take for example a metal stud in section, you may be tempted to draw a wide c channel shape at the bottom, mirror that to the top, then draw a thin line on each side, offset that and change the offset line to a dash line. Thats a lot of lines for revit to think about. Instead create a stretchable, flexible detail component and you will save time and processing power.

I'm not saying revit shouldn't handle linework much better. But when you look long term, linework doesn't help a BIM solution as there is no way to count it, cost it, etc.

[patricks]

Now here's an interesting thought... that family you just posted is 380 KB... so does that add 380KB to the file size just when you load it, or does it add 380KB every time you place it in detail views?

[patricks]

And here's another question, what about filled regions? When you pick a filled region, Revit calls it a detail component just like a loaded detail component, so would filled regions add as much bulk to the file size as lines do?

[robert.manna]

Now here's an interesting thought... that family you just posted is 380 KB... so does that add 380KB to the file size just when you load it, or does it add 380KB every time you place it in detail views?

The size of your project file will not increase by the size of the family for every time the family is used. However, you will see a slight increase in your project file size as it now has to remember that family x has been used 11 times instead of 10, and it needs to know where the 11th instance of that family is located, it also needs to remember any specific instance parameters for that 11th instance. However, the more types you add to a family, your project file is going to grow to accommodate the new type. Once again though you are not creating more geometry, you are only asking it to remember a new defined set of parameters that control the geometry. So, in the case of the C-Channel stud family, you would definitely lower your project file overhead by replicating that family, even if you have to resize it several times. Of course, what you would want to do is define your most common sizes in a project as types, as this will have lower overhead then constantly resizing a single type with instance parameters/handles.

[sbrown]

Actually there are multiple families in that zip folder, the family itself is only 63kb and Just try this, load it into a blank project, check the file size, copy 10 times, check file size. now trace it with just lines , then copy them 10 times and see what you get.

[Wes Macaulay]

I too can confirm that detail components are the way to go. Anything but detail lines ;-)

We do need detail line performance to be improved in Revit! Often sections are done in 2D and you can't complete them without using a lot of detail lines.

[rod.74246]

After reading the last few posts It really does make a lot of sense. ACAD will always be quicker using straight 2d detailing. ( i id actually draw a complete 2d floor plan for a laugh and will never try that again!!) However it does seem the above posters are also right. Seems 2d linework should be avoided for a number of reasons. Most importantly why use it when there are better ways of doing things?

What this post has really highlighted for me is that there is a huge issue for a number of us long term ACAD and 2D CAD package users which is a lot more related to adjusting our current mindests and look at a different way of doing things. Old habits die hard i suppose and it is very natural for us to revert to a comforable way of doing things.

Have been playing a lot with detail components the last few days. I love the repaeating details!!!

Quick question though. There was a mention of making a detail component "stretchable"? That i have been unable to do so far, nor find any info on. Is this a simple thing to do?

[rod.74246]

Never mind, just checked the .zip file. Didn't know you could make the detail components parametric as well. Should have known. I really need a lot more practice using families and components. :)

[patricks]

I have also been going crazy making detail components over the past few days since seeing this thread, and also modifying some of the existing Revit detail components to make them better.

To make something stretchable, you place 2 reference planes, draw your object and lock them to the reference planes, and then put a dimension between the reference planes with an instance parameter (like Length or whatever).

I downloaded that zip file that sbrown posted and copied the stud wall section to our server. I also made another family that is just a stud w/o the tracks (for soffit framing, etc.). I updated the gyp. board family to make it stretchable (FINALLY). I also took the standard brick and CMU sections and added a mortar joint to the top and bottom, and added an on/off instance parameter so anywhere you place that detail, you can choose whether or not you want to see the mortar joints. I also created a brick/block in beyond component, also with a switchable on/off mortar joint. You can stretch it to make whole or half bricks and then turn on the mortar joints at the edge of the wall that's showing in beyond.

Oh yes I'm having fun with this. :mrgreen:

[rod.74246]

OMG i love this. Thankyou all who jogged our brains down this path. I have attached a thumbnail FYI. Now i have never done any family editing before and quickly set up a couple of detail component families for a job i am working on and timed myself. 3 families involved.
1. Repeating detail (number of options 140, 190 and 240 block with mortar joints. 8 mins for component family
2. Stud wall family. (width changes for all stud wall sizes and you can spec, the wall sheet size in the parameters as well and wall height) - this took me a while cause it was the first one i did - 22 mins for component family
3. Slab footing edge detail ( have screened the parameters for you) - Took about 10 mins for component family

i loaded these into a mock up job file and gave it a whirl. A typical slab edge footing/ detail etc. (less annotations) accurate to structural engineers dimensions (that can change any time) took less than 40 seconds to get to this point. Holy ****!!!

Just for a laugh I showed one of my partners how quickly it took me to do this detail based on one of his current projects angineering drawings and he couldn;t beleive his eyes.

I cannot beleive how easy this is. Am going to have to try some more family building, particularly 3d, but in all seriousness creating the families took slightly longer than it would take to draw the detail in AutoCAD but now we have a parametric version for any situation.

I cannot beleive how easy the parametrics are!! My brain is buzzing with what could be done here with 2 d families in documentation.!! Rafters beams purlins etc. I think there has been too much emphasis on the 3d abilities of this program which is great, but wow the 2d versatility is awesome.

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Wes back me up here, we covered alot of this in your "Monster Projects..." thread.
Its all about FAMILIES!!!!!!!!!!. http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=18783&highlight=monster


Wes. Our smallest project is just short of 90MB. All documentation is done in Revit, not one ounce in acad. We build a stack of families!

There are two significant things we have noticed with big files:
1.Don't model anything in the project (in place families).Rather build the family.
2. Stay away from lines, both model + detail. rather build the family.
3. Reduce the dwg usage. ie We will bring a dwg in to model the topography. Once done the dwg is deleted. Same applies to existing buildings.We have no dwg's in our projects, what so ever!!!!!!

We have found that by eliminating the fore mentioned we have in some cases cleaned and reduced our file sizes up to 25%. Having said that, nothing is spared when it comes to detail. We have sometimes been criticized for over detailing ( and I am proud to say all done in revit!). What does help though is that we have been on Revit since 4.5 so the libraries to chose from are extensive. Families ARE your Friends!

TAKE THE TIME, MAKE THE FAMILY!!
Then its all about RE-USE.

[patricks]

I cannot beleive how easy the parametrics are!! My brain is buzzing with what could be done here with 2 d families in documentation.!! Rafters beams purlins etc. I think there has been too much emphasis on the 3d abilities of this program which is great, but wow the 2d versatility is awesome.

I am very thankful for the 2D abilities also. When I was in school we were using formZ, which is great for some crazy wacky stuff (nurbz and other wierd solids) but it really sucks for drafting. I'm glad that Revit has great capabilities in both 2D and 3D. :cool:

[Wes Macaulay]

Well Zeds, I'm going to Boston to meet with the developers about this very issue on a very large project we're working on, so I'll let you know what comes out of that conversation!

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Patrick and Rod. Try this now. The file is a sweep profile (with a nested detail) that you add as a slab edge. Then cut a section in fine representation and presto all the detail, is added. This is what I mean about spending time with the Families rather. We detail up in families Then just populate the project database.