Cutting through Sweeps

[bowlingbrad]

I'm trying to place a scupper opening through a sweep. I've tried all of the different sweep types (hosted, within the wall definition). To no avail. I've tried the opening tool, a generic model and a window for the scupper. To no avail. Any suggestions?

[Scott D Davis]

A "window" family that is nothing more than an opening should do the trick, but you've already tried?

[bowlingbrad]

Yep.

I think I'm going to have to use a split region where I want the scupper and not touch both wall sweeps. That way I can put an opening in the wall and get the scupper to show in section. This really screws up my building. I have modified a good portion of the sweep returns. I'm going to loose all of the returns!!!

[Scott D Davis]

Your 'window' would need to cut all the way through the sweep, and it only cuts the center portion, right?

[tamas]

Did you check the "Cuttable" box for the sweeps in the wall definition? This is a new 8.0 param we implemented just for this purpose.

Post your model here if it still does not work.

Tamas

[Mr Spot]

You also have to make sure your family for the window is upgraded to version 8.0. Which would involve editing the family, changing a value for a parameter and applying it, then change it back then reload back into the project.

This will cause it to take on the new behaviour. That is to be able to cut sweeps. It works for us here as we have quite a few wall types with built in wall sweeps now.

HTH.

[bowlingbrad]

Here is a wall with a sweep that has an 'opening' cut into it. Not a window, not a door, just the simple opening tool.

The sweep is cut, all right. But all I wanted was the opening. Not the entire sweep cut.

[tamas]

Brad,

Would you mind posting this little revit file here?

Thanks,

Tamas

[bowlingbrad]

Here's the little bugger.

[tamas]

I am sorry Brad, but we do not consider these wall openings for modifying the sweep. (You could say this was an oversight.)

One workaround is to use a frameless window.

Tamas

[Scott D Davis]

your file crashes when I simply open it in Revit 8, and do nothing more than select the Window tool from the design bar.

[Scott D Davis]

Got it to work by cutting and pasting your wall into a new file. Here's the solution with a 'window'. This is Opening.RFA, loaded from the window library. It's simply a window with no trim, glass, frame, etc., but it gets placed not by the Window tool, but by the Component tool. I left your 'openings' in place, and put a new one next to it.

Hope that helps! You should be able to nest the actual scupper into the opening file to create a scupper that cuts the trim and inserts the metal scupper at the same time.

[bowlingbrad]

You see, I thought I was being smart for using a simple opening. :rolleyes: Never thought of the opening.rfa component. Thanks, Scott. Regarding the crashes... I have just loaded the latest build. Could that be the effect?

[Scott D Davis]

Not sure about the crash. I was surprised! Opened file, picked window, crash! Factory...same result???

[tamas]

Yes, I see the crash too. This file somehow lost its default window family. Just go and load some window family before clicking on the window button.

[Scott D Davis]

could this crash be fixed with a dialog box?

"You have no default windows loaded, you must load one now." Then the Load dailog box opens.

[tamas]

could this crash be fixed with a dialog box?

"You have no default windows loaded, you must load one now." Then the Load dailog box opens.
Sure, it can be fixed a number of ways. Wish we have found it before it reached you guys ;-).

Tamas

[Scott D Davis]

Wish we have found it before it reached you guys ;-).That's alright...we don't mind helping you out from time to time! :mrgreen:

[BWG]

Now, we have a similar condition with a built in sweep in a wall, but with a window. I want the sweep cuttable, but I also need the sweep to be "setback" so the window trim can pass by. When the cuttable box is checked, the setback distance has no effect. Is there another way to do this.

[tamas]

Now, we have a similar condition with a built in sweep in a wall, but with a window. I want the sweep cuttable, but I also need the sweep to be "setback" so the window trim can pass by. When the cuttable box is checked, the setback distance has no effect. Is there another way to do this.
You are right, the setback has no effect when the sweep is cuttable. We did not have a good sense of what a setback would mean if you cut out an arbitrarily shaped window from the sweep.

Why do you need it cuttable in this example? I don't see the reason in your picture.

Tamas

[wildcat_714]

It looks like the sweep is already being cut by the window, but you want it to be pulled back from the window a bit. I think if you select the sweep you'll get grab points you can pull the sweep to where you want it with, also you could use the align tool to do the same.

Peter-

[BWG]

You are right, the setback has no effect when the sweep is cuttable. We did not have a good sense of what a setback would mean if you cut out an arbitrarily shaped window from the sweep.

Why do you need it cuttable in this example? I don't see the reason in your picture.

Tamas

Tamas,

Look closely at the detail in the previous picture. The sweep (watertable) is going over the brick header ribbons around the window. I need to have the sweep stop at the ribbon like they do it in the field. If the setback could have an effect, I could stop the sweep 3" from the window and butt it into the ribbon. Or, sometimes they stop the watertable 6" from the ribbon to allow some space for visual effect. This can be achieved but not selecting cuttable, but sometimes, the window comes down into the watertable and the window sits on the two bottom rowlocks of the water table. It cuttable is not selected, the two bottom pieces will not continue and I have to model them separately at it gets a little messy as can be seen in this example:

Thanks,

[BWG]

It looks like the sweep is already being cut by the window, but you want it to be pulled back from the window a bit. I think if you select the sweep you'll get grab points you can pull the sweep to where you want it with, also you could use the align tool to do the same.

Peter-

If cuttable is selected, only the ends can be pulled back. If it is not selected, then the ends and cut areas can be pulled back, but somtimes I need the bottom two parts of the sweep to continue on. Currently we have to model this, but would not have to if the setback worked with cuttable.

[tamas]

Tamas,

Look closely at the detail in the previous picture. The sweep (watertable) is going over the brick header ribbons around the window. I need to have the sweep stop at the ribbon like they do it in the field. If the setback could have an effect, I could stop the sweep 3" from the window and butt it into the ribbon. Or, sometimes they stop the watertable 6" from the ribbon to allow some space for visual effect. This can be achieved but not selecting cuttable, but sometimes, the window comes down into the watertable and the window sits on the two bottom rowlocks of the water table. It cuttable is not selected, the two bottom pieces will not continue and I have to model them separately at it gets a little messy as can be seen in this example:

Thanks,
I can see how you would like this feature, but it is currently not supported. The general problem is that the "setback" of the sweep is not very well defined for an arbitrarily shaped window. How would you like the sweep to behave around an oval shaped window?

If there enough request for such feature, we will consider it for the future.

In the meantime you can use a custom made void and cut geometry to modify the wall sweep as you desire.

Tamas

[BWG]

I can see how you would like this feature, but it is currently not supported. The general problem is that the "setback" of the sweep is not very well defined for an arbitrarily shaped window. How would you like the sweep to behave around an oval shaped window?

If there enough request for such feature, we will consider it for the future.

In the meantime you can use a custom made void and cut geometry to modify the wall sweep as you desire.

Tamas

I am getting used to workarounds. As far as the oval window goes, if you have a trim extrusion in the window family, why can't it stop at that since it is all tied together within the family. As far as I could tell in the window family, the window is not what is cutting the sweep, it is a void opening in the host that stops it, so in that case, the oval window would not work.

[tamas]

I am getting used to workarounds. As far as the oval window goes, if you have a trim extrusion in the window family, why can't it stop at that since it is all tied together within the family. As far as I could tell in the window family, the window is not what is cutting the sweep, it is a void opening in the host that stops it, so in that case, the oval window would not work.
Yes, after all this is just software. We can implement just about anything provided we have enough time and money. Unfortunately the system is not set up currently to do what you wish.

Tamas

[BWG]

Yes, after all this is just software. We can implement just about anything provided we have enough time and money. Unfortunately the system is not set up currently to do what you wish.

Tamas

Ok, Thanks,

[janunson]

How would you like the sweep to behave around an oval shaped window?

take the opening shape, cut of the sweep would be opening shape offset by a distance of "setback".

[tamas]

take the opening shape, cut of the sweep would be opening shape offset by a distance of "setback".
I think this is not what you want for rectangular opening. I don't think you would want the bottom edge "set back" as well. Maybe horiztonal edges of the opening should be treated differently.

Or how about a window that uses an arbitrary void to cut the opening? Then you get into offsetting a 3D shape with possibly different amounts in its faces. This is not a simple task in general.

Either way, it is far from obvious what is best and we did not have time to further enhance this functionality.

Tamas

[BWG]

I think this is not what you want for rectangular opening. I don't think you would want the bottom edge "set back" as well. Maybe horiztonal edges of the opening should be treated differently.

Or how about a window that uses an arbitrary void to cut the opening? Then you get into offsetting a 3D shape with possibly different amounts in its faces. This is not a simple task in general.

Either way, it is far from obvious what is best and we did not have time to further enhance this functionality.

Tamas

I think I can solve my problem, maybe, if it will work. I haven't tried this yet, but I am thinking of making that profile three separate profiles. If I do that, and don't select cuttable, will I get shape handles for each profile or will they be grouped into one at that cut, like they are now as one profile? Also, if I do this, I am hoping the profiles that are not cut by the opening, will continue. Will this work? Right now, there is just one profile to make that sweep. As for arbitrarily shaped windows, I can understand where the problem is trying to get the sweep to conform to the different shapes or the same shape, but at different dimensions and angles. I am sure someday this will happen, but maybe the above will make life easier for now if it works.

Thanks,

[tamas]

I think I can solve my problem, maybe, if it will work. I haven't tried this yet, but I am thinking of making that profile three separate profiles. If I do that, and don't select cuttable, will I get shape handles for each profile or will they be grouped into one at that cut, like they are now as one profile? Also, if I do this, I am hoping the profiles that are not cut by the opening, will continue. Will this work? Right now, there is just one profile to make that sweep. As for arbitrarily shaped windows, I can understand where the problem is trying to get the sweep to conform to the different shapes or the same shape, but at different dimensions and angles. I am sure someday this will happen, but maybe the above will make life easier for now if it works.

Thanks,
I think this approach will work for you. The three profiles will create independent sweeps that you can control. If you put them in the wall type, you can set the proper "cuttable", and "setback" values easily. The only drawback is that now Revit needs to regenerate three sweeps instead of one, so you might see a little slow down.
While at this, you can unset the "cuts wall" param if the sweep does not intersect its wall to make it regen a bit faster.

Tamas

[BWG]

I think this approach will work for you. The three profiles will create independent sweeps that you can control. If you put them in the wall type, you can set the proper "cuttable", and "setback" values easily. The only drawback is that now Revit needs to regenerate three sweeps instead of one, so you might see a little slow down.
While at this, you can unset the "cuts wall" param if the sweep does not intersect its wall to make it regen a bit faster.

Tamas
Thanks Tamas,

Yes, I will turn cut wall off since that sweep can actually be shown on the surface since any "cut" would be invisible anyway. We don't do sections of this, so it shouldn't be a problem. If I see slow down, I will just upgrage the computer. This file was at 18 megs and couldn't tell a difference from 8 megs, so it shouldn't be a problem on these smaller jobs.

[janunson]

What if the window family had a new tool... an object like the opening object that is for cutting sweeps... then you can define the two lines exactly for every window you make..

or better yet....

Here's another option - one that i think would be even more universally helpful... instead of the opening object being a 2D profile, make it a 3D volume like a mass... then we could define the opening created by an object to be much more responsive, linking it to wall faces, core faces, etc. to define complex openings for objects... This would not only solve cutting problems for sweeps but other issues, like recessed drinking fountains or fire extinguisher cabinets... display cabinets, etc. that don't cut all the way through a wall. currently we have to double up walls to do embedded objects like these.

[BWG]

What if the window family had a new tool... an object like the opening object that is for cutting sweeps... then you can define the two lines exactly for every window you make..

or better yet....

Here's another option - one that i think would be even more universally helpful... instead of the opening object being a 2D profile, make it a 3D volume like a mass... then we could define the opening created by an object to be much more responsive, linking it to wall faces, core faces, etc. to define complex openings for objects... This would not only solve cutting problems for sweeps but other issues, like recessed drinking fountains or fire extinguisher cabinets... display cabinets, etc. that don't cut all the way through a wall. currently we have to double up walls to do embedded objects like these.

We have an arched art niche that goes into a wall. I can place it into a 2x6 wall and it only cuts into that wall about 3". So that is similar to a fire cabinet, it could be modified to one. I think it was a downloaded family either from autodesk or revit city.

[janunson]

If that works, you can solve the sweep cutting problem of this thread, because you could specify cuts in the wall that only go x" deep, thus cutting sweeps at the surface of the wall separate from the full opening of the window. I haven't seen this actually work, best i can get is that the two overlap, or use the cut geometry tool manually on the family.

but if you could post that family i'd like to see if i can give it a try!

[BWG]

Here is the niche. We have made a few changes to the original, but haven't really looked to see what made it work. It was first downloaded to cut into a 2x4 wall and that worked fine. I placed it in a 2x6 wall to see if it would do the entire wall or just the 3" or so. The attached jpg is the 2x6 wall with the niche inserted. Also attached is the fire cabinet housing, but I don't know how it works. I have not tried it yet.

Thanks,