Large Format Printers Research

[mserapiglia]

Our engineering firm is interested in purchasing a large format monochrome plotter.. I have done a bit of research. And I just woke up and realized that some of our AUGI friends may have done some research! I wonder if you might help us out?

We are currently down to three main contenders:

Oce' TDS300; print & copy (13K)+_.. the numbers are still not in
Oce' TDS400; print, copy & scan (36k)+-... " "

Xerox 510 (?); print, copy & scan (??k).. the numbers are still not in

Kip 2000; print, copy & scan (24K)+_.. the numbers are still not in
Kip 6000; print, copy & scan (28k)+-... " "

I won't lie to you... the cost is certainly a consideration, but reliability is way up at the top of our list. Could you please offer us an unbiased opinion on this decision. Please make it simple:o)

Thanks for you time and help

Regards,
Michael Serapiglia
San Joaquin Engineering
Bakersfield, Ca
mailto:mike.sj.eng@sbcglobal.net

[Alex Page]

Our sydney office have a xerox 510....great but not if you use solid fills, ie shading for anything...it bleeds quite bad and bands. Other than this it is great

[mserapiglia]

Thanks Alex,

We will be using it for engineering plans.. which will include grey tones (shading) some solid type work but primarily black and white.

I did notice today that the KIP specs are for 400 DPI.. which concerns me that it will not be adequate.

Any opionons are welcome!, Mike

[Mike.Perry]

We are currently down to three main contenders:

Oce' TDS300; print & copy (13K)+_.. the numbers are still not in
Oce' TDS400; print, copy & scan (36k)+-... " "

Xerox 510 (?); print, copy & scan (??k).. the numbers are still not in

Kip 2000; print, copy & scan (24K)+_.. the numbers are still not in
Kip 6000; print, copy & scan (28k)+-... " "Hi

Oce Plotters ~ no comment ~

+

Have you tried a search (http://forums.augi.com/search.php?) of the Hardware (http://forums.augi.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36) Forum...

+

Latest CADalyst article on Plotters might be worth a read - On A Roll (http://management.cadalyst.com/cadman/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=156446)

Have a good one, Mike

[Ron Oldenbeuving]

From a personal perspective, in the past, I've always found the HP large format plotters to end up doing the best job over the longer term, and, they seem to be the easiest to get drivers and support software for varying softwares.

[Mike.Perry]

From a personal perspective, in the past, I've always found the HP large format plotters to end up doing the best job over the longer term, and, they seem to be the easiest to get drivers and support software for varying softwares.~ nods ~ totally agrees...

[cadpoobah]

In my opinion, there are two classes of large format plotters; those for small to medium size offices, and those for large offices and plotting service co's. I would say that HP is pretty dominate in the small-to-medium office environment.

Being a large full-service AEC firm, we have 4 Oce TDS 800's and 4 TDS 600's and run about 500,000 plots per year. There is nothing that HP offers that would fit this volume. Don't get me wrong, I am a true HP fan, wouldn't have anything else for home (my 1120c is about 10 yrs old), but I don't think that hi-volume large-format plotters is their market. (Although I did hear a rumor that they might be throwing their hat in the ring.)

Overall, the Oce's are heavy duty work horses. Their software is not the greatest, but is tolerable. We've dumped it and developed our own (the benefits of a large co). They charge for everything (PDF support, software, etc.).

We are currently evaluating Kips (their 8000 model), and have been rather inpressed. Their prices are comparable. Units are smaller in size, and have a straight thru paper path.
Some issues with Kips: only hold 4 rolls of paper, paper rolls are smaller than on Oce.

Kips also offers an 18x24 device which is very attractive. I think it may be the only one on the market, or one of a few. We are considering it for plotting in-house review sets.

Personally, I would steer away from the Xerox units (no offense, alex :)). The units they have out may be fine, but I understand that they have not been putting much R&D into this market.

Good luck with your research.

[Maverick91]

We have a HP1050c plotter. While it's color and may be more than what you're looking for, it's been a workhorse. We've never had a down moment with it. Easy to use, and decently fast.

[mserapiglia]

Thanks to all of you who replied,

Chris,

We are also interested in the Kip, I have not seen the 8000 model... But the concept of a single footprint is very attractive to us. Space is a premium here but reliability is our biggest concern.

I also love the HP inkjets... They have certainly been the most reliable plotters I have used. But as Chris had mentioned... for high volume printing... they will not cut it!

We will continue with our HP... it will never be replaced! But we have a need for speed:o)

Mike

[Will_Munson]

One other thing to test is PDF and DWF processing and output. Postscript output is usually an additional charge or upgrade on wide format plotters. As the demand for PDF's and DWF's increase, creation of PLT's will decrease.

Some firms want to move completely away from PLT's and use PDF's and DWF's for sharing, plotting, and archiving. But, when they try to push a 400 sheet set of PDF's through a plotter that is designed for PLT's and TIFF's plot speed comes to a crawl.

Postscript processing is no longer an option. You have to have it.

Recommendation:
Make a 50 sheet set of PDF's with "lines merge" enabled so that they will view and plot just like PLT's. Take the file(s) to the company showroom and run three sets as one job. Time how long processing takes before the first print comes out and then the time for the first set, second set (should be less) and third set to finish plotting.

I think you will be surprised at how this test will vary on all the plotters you are considering. If a company isn't equipped to do this test or doesn't have all the options installed on the plotter you are considering, then DON'T BUY IT until they do-- regardless of published specs or what their sales engineer tells you.

[rclayton]

One device conspicuously missing from these posts is the Kyocera 4850W. We have one of these and it is very fast, great output and very well supported .....

[Andre Baros]

Don't buy a plotter. We have an agreement with our service bureau to set up and maintain our Oce TDS 400. Since we can pass every bill through to a client, it's almost free to have around. They're great about support (as is Oce), supplies, maintenance, etc.

We switched to this agreement and the OCE from an HP and have never looked back. The HP seamed great until we got the OCE.

[cadpoobah]

Very good advice about the PDF/DWF test, Will. The multipage documents can definately trip up an otherwise capable plotter.

I believe that PDF & DWF support is included on the Kips, but is an extra charge on the Oce's.

And the "don't buy a plotter" idea should not be taken lighlty either. There are some plotter vendors who offer some creative ways of setting you up with a plotter (no charge for the plotter, just pay per plot).

[Robert.Williams82344]

Michael,

I just happened to be skimming the net this weekend, and found this site: www.large-format-printers.org/ (http://www.large-format-printers.org/). Check them out, they had alot of good information. May be just what you're looking for.

Personally, I prefer the HP Large format printers/plotters, they've always worked best with Windows and AutoCAD. Errors only every so often, usually when plotting on Mylar or (rarely) when plotting large images within AutoCAD.

Also, the Encad CADJet Series plotters are NOT all that great, the one we have (I wasn't here when the boss man purchased it) is slow, the Blacks are actually gray, and it seems to give us more problems than the HP.

Good Luck

[cadpoobah]

It might be helpful to differentiate between "large format printing" and "large format plotting". In my opinion, plotting is more engineering/architectural based (typically black & white with some screened linework, basic media types, high-volume, etc.) and printing is more graphics/design based (typically full range color, special media types, lower volume, etc.). I think the site that RobertW mentions would support this distinction. Few of the devices listed would be well suited for "plotting", and known would be suitable for high-volume plotting.

If, however, you are looking for a medium-volume plotter with color capabilities, then you might find some useful info on that site.

[vvasquez]

In my opinion it is best to go with a service bureau to place a piece of equipment at your office. They will have all the answers and can pass the costs along to your clients via 3rd party invoice. Hope this helps!

Vince Vasquez
Ford Graphics LA

[Robert.Williams82344]

Very true vvasquez, I just found out that when we first started up, that was all we used, it might be a little difficult to deal with at first, but once the repro company gets used to how you want things done, it's smooth sailing from there on out.

We still use a few different reprographics companies for copy and such, but we have since progressed to plotting out our own sheets.

Have a great one!

[Liamnacuac]

Six years later....

....Has anyone done the research lately? I'm curious what the maintrence costs between KIP, HP, and Oce are in general. I know the cost of the machines form highest to lowest is Oce, HP, KIP (I think), and the out put would be KIP, Oce, HP, Right?
What are ROI times?