Formulas (was>Are we the fools?)

[sjsl]

Does anyone feel like the Factory is laughing at it's users albeit humbly(?). We get all of this great automation for things and they throw us into the formula fire.Why do we have to create any forumalas at all? Should'nt this great sofatware take care of all this tedium not to mention most of us have no aptitude or care for creating this stuff. I simply want to use the software and not have to deal with formalas for anything. They presume we are all math wizards and programmers (sound familiar).

Let's see I'll just create a script to create a script so I can tell the computer to give mwe the script minus a few othe rthings so I can have a window have tow mullions instead of one. Yikes!

We must REVolt! Other programs do not have to contend with this. It really puts a damper on learning and training. Our users just say, how come this great softaware has to be told every little thing when doing somehting so simple?

Let's get past formulas for everything, include this info the sake of it's users. You are limiting who will and can use this software.

Have a great weekend!

End of rant!

[Andre Baros]

I felt this way at first, regarding some family creation. But the more families I create, the more this seams impossible. There are too many possible combination of formulas for the factory to set them up for users. I personally like the flexibility and control and find that after the first few tries it's pretty easy.

I want automation for the dumb tasks and full control for the complicated stuff.

[Scott D Davis]

I totally disagree. Revit requires the LEAST programming of any BIM solution. ArchiCAD, programming required or at least a knowledge of GDL Scriptiong language to create content. ADT/AutoCAD ususally require some form of customization in LISP.

Revit's formulas at least give us the ability to compute things as needed. It's just math. I use math in practice everyday with or without the computer. There is no possible way for the programmers to completely cover every users needs and incorporate every formula one might use into the program. Especially since we can create our own parameters!

[Dimitri Harvalias]

OK, I have to ask. What are you trying to do that you can't? You can't possibly expect your CAD software to anticipate every formula that you will ever require and have that built into the software. Are you talking about formulas is families, in schedules, in dimension strings?
One of the things I love about Revit is that fact that you don't have to get your hands dirty if you don't want to. I don't have to deal with Autolisp to create a simple door schedule that can extract attribute information from a door tag that I had to create from scratch. Revit does that for me. I don't have to write a script to get a list of drawings with a certain issue date so I can put the list on my title sheet. Revit does that for me.
Rants are OK on occasion but make them 'structured' rants so some good can come of them and the factory can get some useful feedback.

Edit: Just the fact that you have had three responses within 10 minutes of your post contradicting what you suggest should be some indication that you are ranting up the wrong tree!

[Jit]

may be Revit can cook for us too

but wait ...although the stove and oven can be the same, what about

what time should it start cooking

what do you want to cook

meat or vergies

soup or no soup


you see what I mean...possibilities are endless


it is the price of freedom,

what you want when you want

it is just a tool

[robert.manna]

I have to agree with everyone above. If you don't want to get your hands dirty programming families (because in the end that is what it is), then hire or contract someone who doesn't mind doing it. I love it actually, I take the company laptop home and work on families during the commute, it is problem solving with an architecture/design twist. In any case, I can understand why you might not like it, not everyone has the head for it, which is fine. However, I don't think that you can have a program like Revit without some sort of interface for developing custom "families" or whatever you want to call them, depending on what kind of program it is. Revit's family parametrics are far better than the DD design parametrics that come with Microstation, not to mention it is much easier to make them work in "3D" unlike M-station. Not to mention Revit as far as architects go is leaps and bounds ahead of tri-forma itself. You don't have to be Foster and partners with several employees writing custom apps for M-station to do something similiar in Revit, not to mention with Structural coming fast and Systems on the horizon, we are moving ahead, and the need for custimization and control will always be there.

[rookwood]

I am not taking sides here, but I can see both sides of the 'argument'. It took me 2 years after I installed Revit 5 to get into it and make the commitment to abandon ADT. I did so after watching over someones shoulder for 3 days as she prepared a rendering I needed desperately for a very important client (not that all clients aren't important).

Like so many others, I felt I just did not have the time available to learn a new program. I was very wrong and regret that I did not do this much earlier. I am amazed that after 4+ months, I can produce CD's and renderings for 10,000 SF custom houses and site development studies for our development company.

What I can't do, however, is make families and use the extensive tools available for adding parameters, formula, etc. This has become more time consuming and difficult for me than learning basic Revit. I often feel I have to wing it and don't come away satisfied that I have taken the proper path for using Revit as I could. I find that in all the courseware I have purchased and videos watched, these areas are rarely addressed and need more attention with helping people like me. Courseware and tutorials on Revit have been great in illustrating what to do, they just don't tell you why. Then when you try it on your own, you run up against a wall because you don't know the 'WHYS'.

[sbrown]

Who has the link to the STAGES OF REVIT. I think its time to show the new users the phases of frustration and enlightenment we all went through.

Formulas are great, they are an addition to the software that was requested by its users.

You certainly don't ever have to use them. You can always model exactly what you want. Formulas allow you great flexibility in design with out rebuilding you families.

The simplest example is window mullions, you may want a 2x2 lite window up to a certain size and a 3x3 from one size to another, etc. In the early days of revit you would need 2 families for this, with formulas you don't. Its like modeling you don't even have to model the window mullions, model lines in the family work great too, revit gives you the ability to do more than any other program I know of.

[sjsl]

Thank you for paying attention. Some of the best info has come from the least informed.
I applaude all of you who have responded. I can't agree more from what each one of you have said, espceially, since most, if not all of you have been w/R since it's fragile beginning.

[rookwood]

As a newbie to Revit, I take my encouragement and hope from my past experiences with learning software such as AutoCAD, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. I know that thru all the frustrations, and it seemed always to come at my most desperate moments, I woke up one morning and everything 'just appeared'. Almost as if someone said "Okay, you paid your dues, now you can have it."

BTW: I just read an excellent article today on the future of BIM, in general. An interesting observation, and one I can personally relate to, is that Revit will be an easier learn for old timers like me who grew up in the construction industry and know how to build. On the other hand, young college grads who don't know the difference between a 2x4 and a TJI joist will have more difficulty. I truly believe that my 40 years in the construciton business has made Revit a perfect fit for me as we think very much alike. If I did not know how to build, I don't know if we would get along as well.

[hand471037]

As a newbie to Revit, I take my encouragement and hope from my past experiences with learning software such as AutoCAD, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. I know that thru all the frustrations, and it seemed always to come at my most desperate moments, I woke up one morning and everything 'just appeared'. Almost as if someone said "Okay, you paid your dues, now you can have it."

I know I didn't really understand how to make Families until I saw Steve B. do it in a class at AU years ago. Something clicked, and since then I've been able to make any Family I need. It takes time to learn sometimes, and sometimes you just need to see someone do it to really understand it.

My big breakthrough in learning Families is that the Family Editor makes assumptions based upon the order that you do things. So you need to do things in a top-down, major-to-minor, kinda way in order to infer the proper parametrics to an Family. Also learning when to put parametrics into a Sketch vs. when to use Ref. Planes/Lines is a biggie.


BTW: I just read an excellent article today on the future of BIM, in general. An interesting observation, and one I can personally relate to, is that Revit will be an easier learn for old timers like me who grew up in the construction industry and know how to build. On the other hand, young college grads who don't know the difference between a 2x4 and a TJI joist will have more difficulty. I truly believe that my 40 years in the construciton business has made Revit a perfect fit for me as we think very much alike. If I did not know how to build, I don't know if we would get along as well.

That was my direct experance when I was teaching Revit. Just FYI. The folk that knew a lot about how a Building went together got it quick, even if they didn't know much about CAD at all. The ones that knew a lot about CAD/3D but not much about Buildings had a much harder time.

[rookwood]

Jeffrey,

Any suggestions on where to go, other than the tutorials inside Revit, for info regarding the creation of Families?

thanx

[iru69]

Any suggestions on where to go, other than the tutorials inside Revit, for info regarding the creation of Families?
Have you already checked out the training/web cast seminars? I found some of these helpful, particularly the ones on families and components...

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5055212&linkID=3770350
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=3623401&linkID=3770380

While I think the family editor (and formulas) are one of the really great things about Revit, I don't think I've ever been more frustrated in my *entire* life than when starting out with making even simple families. I spent *days* trying to get a window to work.

It still takes me an entire afternoon to get simple window mullions to work, etc. Little by little, I'm starting to "get it" - but it's definitely been a "two steps forward, one step back" kind of thing. There definitely appears to be a "black magic" element to family creation - if you don't do things in a very crtical order, it just won't work. I think one of the reasons there isn't a more detailed tutorial on family creation is because it's one of those things that even the experts have to do by trial and error.

What seems to be bringing me the most success so far is to start by creating all the reference planes first, and thoroughly "flexing" them, and then creating and attaching elements to the reference planes. Every time you add something, flex the model to see if it still works. Also, when starting with an existing family, it's sometimes easier to strip most of it away and rebuild it, rather than trying to modify just what you want to.

[beegee]

I think someone is writing a book about Revit Families. It will cover all aspects from the basics to the harder stuff and will include exercises and project examples.

Can't say more.

[rookwood]

I think someone is writing a book about Revit Families. It will cover all aspects from the basics to the harder stuff and will include exercises and project examples.

Can't say more.

God Bless this person!

[BillyGrey]

I think someone is writing a book about Revit Families. It will cover all aspects from the basics to the harder stuff and will include exercises and project examples.

Can't say more.

Tease.......

[rookwood]

If Beegee was teasing and this 'book' is fictional...man, now that's sick!!!

[Steve_Stafford]

If Beegee was teasing and this 'book' is fictional...man, now that's sick!!!He's not teasing, he's being discreet. Although until you can actually buy it, it's "fiction"...

[Nevine]

Rookwood, feel free to call if you need help. Family creation can be frustrating when you are on a time constraint. When I am in a hurry I keep the family simple with limited parameters then I go back when i have time to expand on it if I think i will need it for more then one project. Formulas give you more flexibality and are a great tool. My biggest frustration was with editing and reloading the family into a project and now I see that in 8 we can do that from inside the project.
I appreciate having choices, we can't just eliminate things because they may be more diffuclt for some to use, and I know the developers are listening and always trying to simplfy things for us, but I truly cannot see how they can anticipate all possible family creation.

[sbrown]

As a rule of thumb and this comes from creating families in early versions of revit and they still work today. Always start with ref. planes and only dimension from a ref. plane to a ref. plane or sketch line. Never dimension to geometry(I know you can do this and it does work very well now, in early versions of revit it didn't). I find if you stick to this single rule your families will work. So if you are dimesioning and you aren't dimensioning a green dashed line or a magenta line, your breaking this rule. With the ref. plane framework in place you can sketch your geometry, then finish sketch and align and lock the proper sides (planes) to the ref. planes. If I build a window I build the entire thing outside of the the only thing relating it to the wall is a ref. plane locked to the exterior face of the wall, this lets me control the inset of the wall and removes accidently locking or associating pieces of my window with the center line or face of the wall(which is typically where a window family fails in my experience). Believe me I know this is overkill now, the family editor handles geometry very well now, but I know my family will work if I do this. So I keep doing it. The other huge thing is to use nested families, its much easier to align/locate sep. families and control their location, then it is to have every thing built into one family.

[JamesVan]

Who has the link to the STAGES OF REVIT. I think its time to show the new users the phases of frustration and enlightenment we all went through.
Did a search for the original post, but I couldn't find it. I do however still have a copy of the original pinned to my board in front of my desk.

Ooops. Just found it...re-posted in Tips and Tricks by Steve Stafford:
http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=3335

[zanzibarbob7]

Beegee,

If Woodward and Bernstein reveal the author of your alleged book on families it will be tops on my summer reading list. I'm sure it will be welcome by all. This book. along with more tutuorials and the release of Marek's Content Highway are things that make Revit so exciting.

Any release date?

[MikeJarosz]

Just FYI. The folk that knew a lot about how a Building went together got it quick, even if they didn't know much about CAD at all. The ones that knew a lot about CAD/3D but not much about Buildings had a much harder time.


Isn't this the difference between architects and drafters? It seems to me that most of the complaining is coming from the drafters. (see the thread on the disturbing negative trend in postings).

[sbrown]

While teaching revit I always come back to the software is fairly easy to learn, Architecture and Building technology is whats hard to teach. Drafters could fake things prior to revit, now revit reveals some sore spots. Another reason to use Revit in the academic environment.

[ejburrell67787]

Always start with ref. planes and only dimension from a ref. plane to a ref. plane or sketch line.
If I build a window I build the entire thing outside of the wall the only thing relating it to the wall is a ref. plane locked to the exterior face of the wall.
Good Tip!! I had almost grasped the first bit about reference planes, but never thought to actually model away from the host first!


STAGES OF REVIT.
haha very true! haven't quite completed my initiation through the family editor yet... !

Cheers, Elrond