I am seeing a disturbing new trend here on AUGI

[SCShell]

Hey there,

I am not one of the Revit gurus here, nor am I a moderator, nor do I have 20 years of CAD under my belt. I am however, a Revit addict.

Please understand, I am a relatively new Revit user (since 5.1, almost 2 years now) and I have been using, learning and helping (hopefully) here on AUGI since it replaced Zoog's great site. (Thank you Chris!) Also, bear in mind, I have had my own practice for 20 years now....hand drafting up until Revit!

I have been seeing a trend here over the past several months. There are lots of new people posting here on AUGI. That is a good thing. It shows interest and speaks well for Revit and it's developers as well as for AUGI. A lot of these new folks are are new users, while others appear to be fairly experienced Revit users. But, what I have been seeing more and more of, is a larger number of people posting with hostility, anger, sarcasm and other similar negative emotions.

Now, before you "bash" me, please note that I am fully supportive toward any user asking any question. Remember, there are no dumb questions. This is what this forum is all about. I am no different than anyone else here in that I do enjoy reading a post and being able to offer some help or saying to myself, "yeah, that just happened to me", or, "yeah, I was just getting ready to learn how to do that myself". I also like that I can ask a question and have it discussed by you all. This is why we are here. And yes, I too have experienced the utter frustration (and panic) of not being able to do something in Revit when the deadline is just around the corner.

As of late however, there are many here now who do not appear to share our original "spirit" of enthusiasm, or willingness to share, learn and grow. It may be due to how Revit was originally presented to them by their reseller, or how it was demonstrated. It may be that they were promised things that no program can deliver. (As one "non-user" told me once, he was told that Revit can do the entire building for you automatically!!!) It may be that some are forced into using Revit by their office or boss and they didn't want to change from the "old" way of doing things. I don't really know. But, what I do know is this:

Revit is no different than one of the lead holders in my drawer. It is a tool. It is not an Architect!!!! That job is reserved for you and me. Revit helps us to do our job (and rather well I might add). But, you and I still are the ones selecting, clicking and typing.

I get upset when I see people posting things that basically say in a hostile voice, "it doesn't do this automatically?!!" , "why doesn't it do this the way I am used to doing it?", "why can't it do this, I could before!" and my personal favorite, "yeah, but it's ugly!" etc.

Most of the time, I ignore these kinds of posts. Others here do respond with things like, "have you looked at the tutorials?" or "have you taken the time to learn how to do that in Revit?".

The good part is that I can get on my little soap box and say what is on my mind, just like you can say how bad Revit is.

Sorry if I offended anyone. That was not my intention. I just wanted to point out something that has been bothering me lately.

Keep on Rock'n
Steve

[robert.manna]

I firmly agree with what you have to say! Revit is not the final solution, it is however in my opinion, the best current solution.

Does that mean that you have to learn how to use it to get really good results, YES!

Does this mean you will have pain and frustration, YES!

Does this mean that Revit is a prefect program, NO! Is it still under development, YES!

Do we sometimes wish for features (for a long time), that to us seem very simple, YES!

Is the implmentation of these features for the developers actually simple like we think, PROBABLY NOT!

Should we be hostile and critizie them and be rude because of this, NO!

Should we offer our comments and requests to help them improve their product, YES!

In then end to really use any piece of software you need to imerse yourself in it and engage it, read the help, read the tutorials, call support, browse the forums, and experiement, I have yet to find any software that didn't require this, even 2D Cad. If you are not the type of person to do this, then you should find an emloyee or a friend who is, so that they can help you in a more personal manner.

-R

[BillyGrey]

Steve,

You express a point of view that has been concerning me for some time now.

A bit of tact, board etiquette, and a realization that the folks here who freely donate their knowledge
unpaid, unsolicited, for no other reason than to be helpfull might do some some good.

The thing is, I see individuals who frame titles in the form of nasty rhetorical questions, or a lead in to a angry venting session, or worse yet, all of the above based on something they lack in knowledge, that Revit does perfectly well already. And then take that angst and point it in the direction of the first responder, or responders. Not only is this approach inappropriate, but it is not the job of one of the handful of really fine individuals here to manage another's problems, anger, and lack
of personal conduct.

If you have a problem, don't veil it behind nastiness, or "why doesn't it do this?" type of questions.
Just state your problem, and give the example. Keep it civil and to the point.

No one here owes anyone anything. No person here is employed by Autodesk. I would like to remind some that if the problem is that pressing take it to Product Support. If your concern is valid, give credit where credit is do, not here, where people generally are only trying to help.

I would hate to see some quit responding and helping because of what could become a nasty place to be part of. It would be a great loss to this board, and believe it or not, to the Revit community as a whole.

And if someone is kind enough to take time from their day to assist, please do not forget to thank them for their time.

Thank you for posting this thread Steve.

[rookwood]

Steve,

As I read your post, I wondered how my posts fit into your conception of the way things appear to be going. I certainly am one of the newer 'newbies' and have to take exception to some of your observations.

First, being 60 years old and growing up in the days of India ink and true 'blueprints', I am passionate about Revit for all the obvious reasons in how it has completely changed the way I work today. I was asked this week by my local Autodesk reseller if I would be interested in helping with, and participating in, setting up a Revit User Group in my area. Of course I said yes, but I question what benefit I can add with my limited knowledge of Revit.

My college major was electrical engineering, therefore I talk and write the way engineers do. Jeffrey and I recently posted several 'essays' responding to a post from someone wanting to know if Revit would benefit from 64 bit processors. I never felt for one minute that our conversation was adversarial, just two guys sparring and firmly stating their position. Apparently others saw it differently when the conversation went into OSX vs. WindowsXP 64. I had no idea what I had gotten myself into and how strongly people feel, pro or con, about OSX. AUGI is an international organization. As such, I, as an Amercian, am being integrated with cultures foreign to me and must stop for a moment and realize that all people don't think or talk as I do. This makes neither of us right or wrong. Hell, I'm from Cincinnati and when I go to New York or California I believe those to be the rudest people on the planet (please don't bash me guys, it's just that I have led a very sheltered life).

I hold a great deal of respect for this forum and to those who contribute tirelessly to it and also to all those who have ignored my ignorance and offered their help. I have, on occasion, posted questions many would regard as elementary. This was either because I was having difficulty understanding something or I was under very strict time constraints and wanted to know if anyone had a 'quick fix'. If this is not proper forum etiquette, I apologize to those I have offended. In the last 5 months since I actually began using Revit, I think I have purchased, read and viewed almost all courseware available and I am proud of my accomplishments in such a short amount of time. However, I have a responsibility to be productive and often must post 'newbie' questions only because I havn't had the time to learn certain aspects of the software (Family Editor).

I learned a long time ago that when I felt the need to respond to something that disturbed me, I would write it and put it away for a few days and then revisit it. Rarely did I ever respond. If I posted everytime I was frustrated with Revit, I would probably be banned from the forum.

I post "why not" questions simply because some things (wall sweeps at angles) seem so very elementary and Revit has shown it can be done (gutter boards on gable ends). Anyone who truly believes that any software can be 'automatic' shouldn't be using a computer for anything, let alone as a design professional and should be ignored on its face.

[BillyGrey]

Hi rookwood,

You response was directed at Steve, but I'm gonna butt in on this one.
For those of us who have been lucky enough to have been around here for a year or two (and esp. some of you real old timers), we have seen this community go from a public board with no affiliations (Zoog Design Forum), to what it is today, being drafted by Augi, and the Zoog board being shut down. Everybody from Zoog came along, and really launched this thing, and most are still here.

"Back in the day", it was relatively small, and everybody knew each other's name.
Everyone pretty much kept a civil tone, even during heated debates, and everyone pretty much thanked each other when someone helped out, or even just tried to. No nasty demanding questions, just "How do I do this?", etc.

Differences of opinion are fine, debate is fine, getting frustrated and venting is human nature.
All of that has a place here. I think my interpretation of what Steve is alluding to is more of a trend on the board, than anything you have said or done individually.

There are, and have been lately, some pretty caustic dialogs here by folks I hope will come to see the community spirit, and sense of place I personally was so drawn to here when I first became a Reviteer. In fact, I think if not for the helpful, guileless, non-presumptive attitude I found at the Zoog Forum, I most likely would never have purchased Revit.

I am not suggesting that this board have no "edge", or be politically correct. But it would break my heart to see this board turn into a soulless, impersonal debate/rant fest, where nobody knows anyone, you troll your question, and hope you get an answer.

There are thousands of boards out there like that, and I hope this one is not going that way.

[iru69]

I'm also one of the newer members here, so I don't have the perspective of what the forums might have been like in the past. That being said, I'm really glad this topic came up, because it's something that has been bothering me too.

The first step is identifying the problem - Bad attitude and rants about lack of features or how something doesn't work is bad. Friendly questions and answers and *constructive* criticism is good.

The next step gets more complex - how do we as a community encourage/discourage posters who don't follow step one.

I've occasionally seen veterans of this forum post replies that lightly scold a really out of order post - but I've also seen replies that seemed to be trying to kill with kindness - that kind of, "if I only show them the light" mentality. Do we sometimes contribute to the problem by replying – even if it’s a helpful/constructive response? There are a lot of responses to rants... which is like the child who's misbehaving and will continue to do so as long as the child gets attention.

Maybe there’s a rules of conduct that could be a sticky post (I just looked for one, so if it already exists, it may need to be more accessible) - any time you run across a post that warrants it, reply with the link. Maybe we should be more active in calling out posts we think are out of line. Anonymous or not, I think most people would be pretty embarrassed.

I’m still relatively new to Revit, but I try to take the time to post answers and help because I feel good doing it, and it helps to balance out the questions or criticisms I have. I really appreciate when someone posts a “thanks” when I (or someone else) has tried to help, and I try to return the same when someone’s helped me.

I think we need to be careful about our replies as well – sometimes someone thinks they’re being helpful, but they’re not – they’re just furthering the frustration. For instance, if someone has posted a wish for a “hand-drawn” rendering look in Revit, replying with a suggestion of a thousand dollars in additional rendering software and plug-ins may not be all that helpful. And occasionally there seems to be a mindless cheerleading of Revit – an attempt to squash even valid criticism as being anti-Revit.

There's an anonymity to the internet that I think many of us enjoy - however that anonymity also gives a certain amount of freedom to speak one's mind without the same repercussions as when speaking to someone face to face. I’d remind posters to ask questions or make criticisms as though the Revit team was in the same room.

Another thing is the language/cultural differences on the forum. There are a number of posters who's first language is not English, but they often give no indication that's the case – and their posts can come off as rude or confusing. It’s great that we have such a diverse community, and I more willing to give some slack to someone who’s struggling with the language than to someone who just doesn’t care enough to make sense. I would encourage posters who’s native language isn’t English, to make that clear, either inferred by location, or specifically in a signature line.

Maybe there should be a “Rant” sub-forum in “Revit Community”, and the poster (or the moderators) can take a thread there and we can ignore them.

I’m certainly uncomfortable with a lot of policing – but there’s a sort of “Lord of the Flies” mentality that can take shape. So what do we do about it?

[SCShell]

Thank BillyGrey,

My point exactly! I am addressing this newly introduced "tone" of the forum. (Sorry for the pun, and please do not confuse this as a personal attack towards any one individual here.)
It is nice to see that I am not alone with my passion for both Revit and this community and those who post regularly.

Have a great holiday weekend. I'm off to Phoenix to catch the game!
Thanks again and keep rock'n
Steve

[rookwood]

BillyGrey,

I see Steve's post as having two parts.

First, I understand what you guys are saying, what you are trying to protect and your concerns about future dialog. As Revit and the Community continue to grow, the situation will escalate. I just tried to throw in some caution as I know some people have been misunderstood. This is why I gave the example of my own post, and I certainly did not take any of this personally. I have not been witness to any of these which I considered caustic borne out of being mean spirited. I have read some pretty harsh rhetoric, but I interpreted these as being driven by frustrations and disappointments. Occassionally, you will read a post by somewho who, obviously, has difficulty with the English language. Some, I have felt so sorry for as you can tell they are struggling and this causes some to come off as being very direct and harsh. I know this is not what you are addressing, but it is happening.

I have spent a fair amount of time on the AUGI forum as well as several notebook and tech forums, and in my spare time a few BMW M3 forums. What I see in all is that there is a deep seated allegiance with most users that sometimes results in heated, but healthy discussions. But, when all is said and done, all is okay. I would hate to see the situation where discourse is monitored and, more importantly, we have to hedge our complaints with Revit. I have no complaints, but it appears to me that when someone does complain, albeit harshly, he or she is criticized.

Secondly, and most important to me, is the fact that I am most concerned about YOU guys seeing US guys and gals as being lazy and not willing to put forth what is required to be proficient with Revit. I have spent an inordinate amount of time in the last several months eating everything Revit but I can't get to where I want to without your help. I'm sure there are some who should try harder, but please don't think this is the majority of us. Hopefully, some day We can grow up to be like YOU guys.

This forum will continue with it's success and will always find a way to heal its wounds. Be concerned, but be understanding, and what ever you do...DON'T ABANDON US GUYS and GALS.

[Steve_Stafford]

...a few BMW M3 forums...
Very fond of that car!! Both the "real" M3 and the newer ones...hehe.


...But, when all is said and done, all is okay...
Indeed...we all come back and are friends again!



...spent an inordinate amount of time in the last several months eating everything Revit but I can't get to where I want to without your help...
We all need the help and the gurus were newbies once too.

In general I agree with Steve's sentiments. Yet over the course of our existence as a forum based community this sort of thing goes in cycles. Some new members have started out a little grumpy or abrupt but in the end our community's greatest attribute is that we all remain professional, very professional. I'm proud of this community and to be a part of it. I'm also very glad we are growing!!

Steve Burri (past Revit Support Manager) was asked in a post (a couple years ago now) why he didn't reply as much in the newsgroups. His reply was simply, "There are so many knowledgeable users now that I just don't need to speak up as much". (paraphrase from memory)

It is great to see the same folks who put up with my feeble questions are still here. It is also great to see so many other users, who once asked those simple questions too, are now so proficient and helping others.

Keep Rrrrrevittttinggggg!

[jbalding48677]

Steve (Shell)-

Thanks for saying what I was thinking. This has been something that I have benn worried about since we all moved over from Zoog. I think the bottom line is that more people are moving over to Revit and there are some growing pains. Just like when a company goes from a mom and pop to a more corporate type. There are a lot more ideas and "opinions" about what is or should be going on.

I appreciate your expressing this issue and I think we can all take a "chill pill" before firing back at a negative post. One thing I try and do, and as mentioned above, write your response in Word (or whatever) and save it for an hour or so; reread it and then post. That takes the emotion out of the response. Ask Steve Stafford, I try and do this as much as possible. It is only when I don't that I get in to a "urination match".

Thanks again for bringing this to light and let's all "just get along"

Regards -

[Marek Brandstatter]

Steve Burri (past Revit Support Manager) was asked in a post (a couple years ago now) why he didn't reply as much in the newsgroups. Anyone know what's happened to Greg Cashen? The guy really knew his stuff.

[Steve_Stafford]

Anyone know what's happened to Greg Cashen? The guy really knew his stuff.Greg took a position in project management that doesn't really make room for Revit. He's still around...just quiet...for now...

[Marek Brandstatter]

Greg took a position in project management that doesn't really make room for Revit. He's still around...just quiet...for now... Greg if you're out there - you're sorely missed :)

[Adam Mac]

I find it heartening to see so many people concerned enough to voice their opinions in the hope that this Forum doesn't become what so many others are. I myself have found this forum to be a great help and would have to say without it could not have progressed as far as i have to date (...which isn't VERY far, but...). There is nothing like the feeling of knowing that you can almost guarantee someone within this forum will at least answer - if not solve - your question/problem every time. And they usually do it with a smile on their icon!

[Martin P]

I suspect I could probably come into the category of one of the negative posters as well as positive. I do tend to come here with things I see as problems with Revit or things I have been finding frustrating about Revit. Thats not to say that I dont enjoy it or I would want to use anything else to do my work - which I will also post if the thread is in that vein....

I feel I have to post if I see Revit as doing something wrong or something badly - Negative posts about Revit have to be aired as well, I just always try and do it in as civilised a manner as possible. Sometimes to convey how strong an issue something is for me I will have to use negative language. When I first started posting at the revit site I was bit of a ranter..... but you tend to feel stupid when somebody points out that you have completely missed something in the help files, or there is an easy solution! But its really a process you have to go through I suppose. I am sure I often rant here - but I normally edit the thread quite quickly as I feel a bit daft! For many I suspect this could be their first real attempt at posting on messageboards too - so some may not really have done this before and dont really realise that its not what Augi is for. Especially if the poster is just that - a poster and not a reader they wont see how others word things...

I find some posts are overly negative, there are also some I find overly positive at times - both of which can be as bad as each other in my opinion, being too positive or negative about something that may not not work that well is not really helpful to anyone. Thats just different people with different reasons for posting... The more people that come to Augi the more extremes of opinion and reasons for being here there will be. My #1 reasong for posting here is to try and be involved in making Revit better, I expect to be using it for a long time, if that requires negative feedback from me then thats what I do... But I post sucesses as well to balance things out.

Something I have thought about recently - but if 2 polls could be added to a thread I think it would help with using negative language in a thread. I could then ask "on a scale of 1-5 how stronlgy do you feel about this?" as well as the actual poll question. The star ratings tend to be used for very interesting threads or bad threads, and are normally always 5* or 1* - they give no indication of quantity either. A "bad" post could get 5* if it were intersting enough if you know what I mean?....

[pfrederico]

I feel guilty for being so impatient sometimes... My biggest frustrations with Revit is that it doesn't manage to do everything it should, which ends demanding unorthodox resolutions to such issues. It can be a pain...

But with time, while learning that this is really a design product and that it's not meant to be entirely functional and do everything like we wanted to. Ever since I've learnt that our imagination and the knowledge of how the program works is the best way to work around the program's limitations it has become less frustrating.

(ops, just went off-topic there. sorry)

Either way, I cannot stress enough just how... extremely helpful everyone has been to me up date in this site and that I'm really sorry for being so impatient most of the times I requested for help...

[SCShell]

. I certainly am not here to win a popularity contest, or to ***** foot around sensitive people, I get to the point "put my foot in the horses mouth" sometimes, no, most times, even before considering what the consequences could be.. But that is simply in my nature!!!
Zeds,

I agree with you, regarding the "real world".
This (AUGI) is not the real world in my opinion. This is one of the only places I can think of where you can actually ask anything, and have a bunch of people offer you their time, patience, experience, knowledge and more assistance than one usually has to pay for, and all without ever asking or expecting anything in return. (Except maybe a "thanks" and a click on one's reputation.)

That is what makes this forum so special to most of us. It isn't like the "real" world. Therefore, the "usual" rules don't apply! Unlike my career, I don't "have to" deal with certain individual's "natures".

We all come here for a variety of reasons. The "gurus" come here out of the goodness of their hearts and to help give back some of what they learned from the original "Zoog" gurus. The Founders come here out of the passion and love of their creation, as do many of the "factory" folks. I, like many, come to learn and pass on any help that I can. The point is, they don't have to. It is not their (nor my) job. It is not an obligation. They do not owe you, nor me, anything. This is very unlike the "real" world. I just want to try to keep it that way. (And by the responses, many others do to!)

Just my "un-real" opinion!
Steve

[Shaun v Rooyen]

Point taken, Steven. And to keep in the spirit of things, thank you so kindly for enlightining me on the issue that does concern you. I will in future take a step back before I dive in. Keep it tidy, here on planet AUGI!

[knurrebusk]

The only disturbing trend i see!
Is that lot´s of new users/competitors enter the Revit scene ;).

Not sure if I´m in the heaven or hell category, but I enjoy/appreciate the hard work of
Revit´s programmers.

The marketing/sales management will always make me think twice though!
Never trust people that sell other peoples work.

[mlgatzke]

<soapbox>

Steve Shell:
You've posted a comment regarding a trend that I've noticed as well. The negativity in this forum is building. I don't know about others, but these negative posts have caused me to reduce my comments in this forum. Not because they're "negative" or hold an adversarial attitude, but because I don't think they'd listen "openly" to any comment I'd interject with or "solution" that I'd provide. They'd simply reply with a, "but why can't Revit do this now?" Mostly, the posts you're commenting on seem to want Revit to already be "perfect" - even though it's "young" in terms of software development. A positive attitude seems to be fleeting in favor of a more adversarial or contemporary (read whining - "I want it all and I want it now" or "why can't it do this") tone.

My opinion? If we want Revit to be the tool that we wish it to be - then we have to help form it - not with adversarial confrontation, but with constructive comments that The Factory can use and develop solutions.

Recommendation? Those that don't want to use a positive effort to mold Revit should go back to using AutoCAD or ADT, ArchiCAD, or whatever you used previously. Heck, they'd love to have you back. Later, come back when you realize what you lost when you walked away from Revit. Maybe you'll look on it with a more favorable light then.

</soapbox>

Steve Stafford:

. . . Steve Burri (past Revit Support Manager) . . . Where's Steve Burri now? I sent him email a while back and he never replied. I'd just heard from him via email a few days earlier. Please tell me he hasn't left the Revit "flock". PM me if necessary.

[beegee]

Yes, unfortunately for us, Steve Burri has moved on to other opportunities.
We miss him and wish him well in his new endeavors.

[Martin P]

I feel I want to clarify this thread a little as to what exactly a negative post is.......

Maybe moderators should just pull the thread if its nasty, thats what they do on other boards I visit?

Nobody should come here and feel forced to be positive about Revit, or to pretend they have no problems with Revit for any reason at all - that is not right and does not help anybody. If somebody is not happy with something they have every right to say that so long as it is done in a constructive manner and without being abrassive about it. If its not put constructively there is no harm in somebody pointing that out in an polite way that a post may be innapropriately worded if it is - even by PM if you feel that strongly, if not the thread is pulled - thats it....


The manner a post is presented in is important - not the content (with regards to Revit), if you dont like something - say so, but dont be "angry" about it or any replies. that is the negative attitude referred to, but you can feel absolutley free to say you dont like something or you want something added. If there is something negative about Revit, dont pretend its not there - its not a solution to anything, air your opinion - just do it politely.

[bowlingbrad]

My .02

I agree that there is a growing problem of negativity on the forum due to the increase in popularity of Revit. More people = more viewpoints. This is expected.

Let's try to come up with a procedure to make sure the forum stays 'helpful' (if there isn't one in place already).

I think that negative posters will weed themselves out if a couple of things happen;
1. All of us responding to those posts in a positive way with some aknowledgement of the frustration of learning a new software package (heck, we've all been there, right?) This was my experience. I remember being told, 'I went through the same thing...Here is a solution that I came up with...'. This creates a comfort level knowing that the frustration is 'shared'.
2. Moderators continue to do their jobs. Give the negative posters some type of '3 strikes, you're out rule. Warning...Second Warning...Removal.

I think these 2 things are happening already so, let's not get too overwhelmed by negativity. I think it is mostly out of frustration. Remember... All of us had to learn Revit at one time or another (okay, some of us ;) ).

Here's the gushy part: I love Revit and the assistance and guidance I receive from this forum. Once you get hooked on this forum and its value, you can't turn back. I can't tell you how great I felt the first time I thought I could lend a hand to someone else. I returned the favor! I will continue to seek help and offer help whenever I can. Let's all remember that.

[zenomail105021]

Well said Martin P and others.

Bill Maddox

[SCShell]

I feel I want to clarify this thread a little as to what exactly a negative post is.......
Agreed Martin!

I never intended to say that one can't post something negative. I was refering to the "tone" of how it is presented.

I love the fact that the Revit Founders and Factory Workers are all here with us, observing and helping. They too, want Revit to grow. This is how the program will get better in my opinion. They actually get to see and hear how we are using this program and get pretty fast input from us all, both positive and negative. That's gotta be a good thing and should continue.

Keep it friendly, that's all I trying to say.
Steve

[sbrown]

I hope no one moderates this forum to the extent most forums are moderated. I have tried to allways post the truth about revit. I'll tell you honestly what doesn't work well right now and I'll praise what does. Most others here do the same, you get honest feedback, no hype here. New users come here and seem to think we are Revit drones. The reason revit gets so much praise from its users is that its creators actually listen to us and implement in some fashion what we ask for, then we complain and ask for more and they continuely work with us. Sometimes I'm sure we sound like a bunch of whiney kids wanting the world(revit) to revolve around us(our personal needs). So anyway bottom line this forum is a place we learn, and we rant occassionaly, and then we kiss and make up. Bring on the toughest questions but try to be civil and I appreciate when new users read the help before asking here. Revits training covers the basics very well and will head off a lot of your questions. It frees up this forum to tackle the more complex aspects of Revit.

[Scott Hopkins]

I can't say that I have ever used the negative reputation button on anyone but I have sure thought about it. Maybe in those certain truly offensive situations it is time to start pulling it out. There is nothing like a scarlet letter to make someone pause and reflect on what they have said.

[Wanderer]

I can't say that I have ever used the negative reputation button on anyone but I have sure thought about it. Maybe in those certain truly offensive situations it is time to start pulling it out. There is nothing like a scarlet letter to make someone pause and reflect on what they have said.
~nods~ obviously, I mod different portions of this forum than you guys do, but, some people do get downright hostile, which does affect the sense of community, peoples' willingness to help. but, we certainly don't want to become manner police, we have enough to do as it is, but, there is a rep button for a reason. don't forget to add comments to that the perp knows what they did wrong.

to the mods/people who faithfully answer questions, keep up the good work, you're all sooo appreciated.

[cosmickingpin]

As this is a world wide fourm, there are many different cultures and when I read something that I feel might be excessively negative I always try to check the user profile and see what the location of the user might be, and I don't wat to generalize but certain cultures seem somewhat aggressive in terms of rhetoric. Let's face it, there are some little prissy B***h architects around who when something isn't immediatly clear, they throw hissy's untill one of their employees step in and does their jobs for them. If folks are trying to balence what they give and what they take then this is a community with a great future, but if there are those who will milk and pump AUGI for everything they can and have no regard for the folks who generously share their time and talent, then they are just plain rude. At 4pm some of us reach for tea and crumpets and other for a whiskey bottle, some of us watch masterpiece theater and others like chainsaw slash flicks. I think rather they going into some really useless game plans here where regulation and enforcement become central roles, I have a better Idea!

When someone is being "negative" someone just gently post something like "hey buddy lighten up" or " you're killing my groove man!" or "would you pop an pill and chill out" or, "easy fella, no need to get physcial" "Dud, you're all wiggin out here, take your meds already" that kind of postive reinforcement and friendly reminder actually will accoplish a heck of a lot more than punitive and negative respones, and will go a lot further to preserving an sense of community. if it is done in a friendly way it can turn somebody's entire outlook around in here. And I thought I was the dark gloomy one...



I feel I want to clarify this thread a little as to what exactly a negative post is.......Maybe moderators should just pull the thread if its nasty, thats what they do on other boards I visit? Nobody should come here and feel forced to be positive about Revit, or to pretend they have no problems with Revit for any reason at all - that is not right and does not help anybody. If somebody is not happy with something they have every right to say that so long as it is done in a constructive manner and without being abrassive about it. If its not put constructively there is no harm in somebody pointing that out in an polite way that a post may be innapropriately worded if it is - even by PM if you feel that strongly, if not the thread is pulled - thats it.... The manner a post is presented in is important - not the content (with regards to Revit), if you dont like something - say so, but dont be "angry" about it or any replies. that is the negative attitude referred to, but you can feel absolutley free to say you dont like something or you want something added. If there is something negative about Revit, dont pretend its not there - its not a solution to anything, air your opinion - just do it politely.

[neb1998]

Competition is what drives innovation.....just leave the knives and guns at home guys.




Steve (Shell)-

Thanks for saying what I was thinking. This has been something that I have benn worried about since we all moved over from Zoog. I think the bottom line is that more people are moving over to Revit and there are some growing pains. Just like when a company goes from a mom and pop to a more corporate type. There are a lot more ideas and "opinions" about what is or should be going on.

I appreciate your expressing this issue and I think we can all take a "chill pill" before firing back at a negative post. One thing I try and do, and as mentioned above, write your response in Word (or whatever) and save it for an hour or so; reread it and then post. That takes the emotion out of the response. Ask Steve Stafford, I try and do this as much as possible. It is only when I don't that I get in to a "urination match".

Thanks again for bringing this to light and let's all "just get along"

Regards -

[cosmickingpin]

"hello dolly!" Bad joke...

See, I was going to say developing cooperation and building working relationships, sharing knowledge and growing understanding. Certainly competition plays a role in innovation but to reduce it to one single thing is far from the whole story.

I don't think its competition driving the "negative trend" it may be how some of the more pernicious elements are justifying it to themselves, but there is nothing in free market theory that requires or even rewards immature behavior.


Competition is what drives innovation.....just leave the knives and guns at home guys.

[neb1998]

"hello dolly!" Bad joke...

See, I was going to say developing cooperation and building working relationships, sharing knowledge and growing understanding. Certainly competition plays a role in innovation but to reduce it to one single thing is far from the whole story.

I don't think its competition driving the "negative trend" it may be how some of the more pernicious elements are justifying it to themselves, but there is nothing in free market theory that requires or even rewards immature behavior.
Free market theory only recognizes rational and irrational behavor...I do not believe that adam smith ever recognized behavor as being immature or mature. Although he may have noticed 5 year olds pursuing trade more equally than 40 year olds on occasion.

Anyway i was just stating that negative and positive input is causing both sides to learn and is in the end beneficial....Some of the questions are dumb but still in the end still cause the Guru's to try to think of ways around the problem the enduser is having and provide a solutiuon or a possible workaround.

[Andre Baros]

After reading the original thread, I didn't think there was much to add. It concisely expressed a sentiment that I shared, but after looking at my own posts a bit, I've noticed that I myself have gotten more negative in some ways. When I first started in Revit and was the only user in my office, it was easier to take the time to find work arounds, and allow the amazing advantages of Revit to out weight the things that were still growing. But things that are a little annoying at first are a lot annoying when they're still there years later. On top of that, things that didn't bug me when I was dealing with them, bug me when I'm training people in work arounds or explaining to others why we can't do this or that.

I am really bothered by people who have used Revit for a week and complain before they do the tutorials and learn the program. But after you've used the program for a few years, you're allowed to expressed your "wish list" a little more BOLDLY. For example, there was a request after the release of 8 for groups to work properly from someone who is not only generally positive about Revit, but answers enough questions to qualify for a few gripes. Similarly, things like the night and day aspects of schedules. I can do a door schedule for any number of doors in minutes, but I can't import a hardware schedule from Excel... but that'll probably come in version 14... there are some things so basic that it's surprising they're not there and new users today don't have the pioneer spirit of users from 2 or 4 or 6 years ago.

[cosmickingpin]

See I was referring to Adam Smith (John Locke and the whole evil white man gang) as immature and more contemporary reads of the market system as being more inclusive, sociologically balanced, and as offering fuller explanations of market economies as naturally organic expression of the human species (in terms of cultural links and shared interest, ie reciprocated altruism) to allow for the many facets of Po Mo society. There are plenty of revisions to the "old rugged individualism- survival of the fittest" so as to allow a better integration into contemporary sociological theory. Any more on this and we should take it outside! (that is to the "out there sub forum" so as to not hijack the thread.)



Free market theory only recognizes rational and irrational behavor...I do not believe that adam smith ever recognized behavor as being immature or mature. Although he may have noticed 5 year olds pursuing trade more equally than 40 year olds on occasion.

Anyway i was just stating that negative and positive input is causing both sides to learn and is in the end beneficial....Some of the questions are dumb but still in the end still cause the Guru's to try to think of ways around the problem the enduser is having and provide a solutiuon or a possible workaround.

[neb1998]

See I was referring to Adam Smith (John Locke and the whole evil white man gang) as immature and more contemporary reads of the market system as being more inclusive, sociologically balanced, and as offering fuller explanations of market economies as naturally organic expression of the human species (in terms of cultural links and shared interest, ie reciprocated altruism) to allow for the many facets of Po Mo society. There are plenty of revisions to the "old rugged individualism- survival of the fittest" so as to allow a better integration into contemporary sociological theory. Any more on this and we should take it outside! (that is to the "out there sub forum" so as to not hijack the thread.)
Agreed........

[neb1998]

Being a revit thread, can i create a new sheet and have it link all new replys accordingly with 100% bi-directional coordination?

[cosmickingpin]

LOL actually the moderators can do that. In the wrong hands this could create extreme chaos, much like Revit (opps damn I was being negative there, sorry)...


Being a revit thread, can i create a new sheet and have it link all new replys accordingly with 100% bi-directional coordination?

[Batman]

Regarding merit/demerit points (reputation); is there a way to view a users history?

[pwmsmith]

To quote Joel Goodsen from 'Risky Business' 1980 something,

Sometimes you just have to pull down your pants and slide on the ice!

[beegee]

Click on the " Control Panel" button, top left - tool bar.
Regarding merit/demerit points (reputation); is there a way to view a users history?

[Batman]

Click on the " Control Panel" button, top left - tool bar.
You've lost me?? Then what?

[JamesVan]

Or just click on the user's name here to the left and select "Find More Posts by..."

[beegee]

There should be a box below the " subscribed threads" headed " Latest Reputation Received "

It's possible that you don't have that though, since the mod tools interact differently.


You've lost me?? Then what?

[Gadget Man]

OK! I stay rebuked...

But,

1) If nobody mentions any problem - does it mean that there is no problem to be fixed? How Factory should know then, what is bothering us? What to pay an attention to?

2) It might not to be a real life, but I would hate to see this forum become an Association of Mutual Adoration, where everybody praises everybody and everything regardless. That would be a hypocrisy. Of course, give the credit where is due, thank your helpers, for without them you would be probably lost (at least for some time) and trying re-inventing the wheel... I usually try to do this (unless I'm carried away with some other topic of the discussion). But if somebody tries to give me a solution, that (at least in my view/situation) is not acceptable (for one reason or the other), I do not hesitate to let them know (politely I hope/try), so they may realise different needs (approaches) too. It is a learning curve for everybody involved!

I usually try to be polite (at least as I understand it), but with my (admittedly) short fuse, I have a little patience for the points of view, that do not allow any other options...

3) Even when I state my strong and not-so-popular opinion, it is not pointed against anybody in particular. I might be a freak, but I am sure there are more of us out there... Many of them might be reluctant to express their strong opinions, but I am not a shy guy - I usually say what I think! And to me, it is a very honest (if sometimes not entirely pleasant) approach. It creates many enemies, but I have several friends, who value me for just that...

Finally: Yes! I will try to tame my feelings a little bit better in the future, for the sake of the well being of this fantastic Forum and its participants, for without you guys, I would be trully lost...!

[Batman]

There should be a box below the " subscribed threads" headed " Latest Reputation Received "

It's possible that you don't have that though, since the mod tools interact differently.
I presume you mean for my own profile, yep I found that.

But is it possible to view the reputation for other users or are the 'LED indicators' our only measure.

[beegee]

if you mean - can you see the actual rep points of another user, as opposed to just the green boxes ( LEDs - I like that ), then no, you can't. ( Admin & Mods can. )



I presume you mean for my own profile, yep I found that.

But is it possible to view the reputation for other users or are the 'LED indicators' our only measure.

[Batman]

if you mean - can you see the actual rep points of another user, as opposed to just the green boxes ( LEDs - I like that ), then no, you can't. ( Admin & Mods can. )

Yeh, thought that may be the case. Thanks.

[Martin P]

the dark gloomy one...


Maybe I will add that to my signature line...... Sounds like a good one.

Just wanted to make it clear what we were talking about, wasnt being too gloomy was I? Ah well, I suppose I do sit in the dark most of the day - maybe thats it... Doesnt that make your post a negative one though? :o .... I do offend easily and quickly LOL ;)

[cosmickingpin]

Oh Oh I just got a bad rep for my post in this thread! No comment though. Unless you write something down the person has no idea what you are objecting to, and accomplishes nnothing except perhaps start a rep war. Go ahead, post a comment if you don't like something somebody says. I think what I said was fairly true and not too "negative". Was that you? it doesn't matter what it was I have no idea what it was for so I continue on and will change and learn nothing, which makes the whole Rep thing extremely pointless. You can keep it anymous, just tell the person what you don't like, if you can be man or woman enough about it. Oh, I dare you, give me another bad one for this post. Instead of "having much to be proud of" I am simply " a splendid one to behold" actually I like the ring of that one better.

[Rhythmick]

Maybe I will add that to my signature line...... Sounds like a good one.

Just wanted to make it clear what we were talking about, wasnt being too gloomy was I? Ah well, I suppose I do sit in the dark most of the day - maybe thats it... Doesnt that make your post a negative one though? :o .... I do offend easily and quickly LOL ;)
Dark & Gloomy!!! - Well try pulling your avatar head out of the sand and see if things brighten up :-)

[Roger Evans]

Cosmic how do you know you had a bad rep mark? what colour was it? how many of them?

[cosmickingpin]

It was red and it was linked to this thread. There was just one of them. I think it might have been done as a joke as I was posting about the foolishness of giving someone bad Rep and not leaving any comment behind, but who could say with this crowd of monkey clowns.


Cosmic how do you know you had a bad rep mark? what colour was it? how many of them?

[Martin P]

I am sure whoever did that will reverse it by giving you a positive at some time in the near future ;)

Sorry, it really wasnt clever. (yes it was me - no offence meant though!...)

Check the time/date you get the Rep against the time/date posts are put on... usually tells you who.

There are 3 colurs, red, green and grey/blue? not sure what a grey/blue one is??

Am going to be a bit brighter round here then.... will start by pulling the avatars head out of the sand....

[SCShell]

Hey Martin,
I like the new "face". Do things look clearer too? (And, no, I did not give you, nor anyone else a bad rep...except this girl once a long time ago.....doh...wrong thread!)
Steve

[luigi]

Blue Gray (I think) is a rep point from somebody that doesn't have a lot of rep points....moderators...am I correct? Please give me brownie points, with lots of fudge!!!


By the Way, I tried to give you cosmos some negative points....but the computer told me, you cannot give rep points to this creature of God, so he will get a green rep point instead!!!!

Figure that out!!!!

[Martin P]

Hey Martin,
I like the new "face". Do things look clearer too? (And, no, I did not give you, nor anyone else a bad rep...except this girl once a long time ago.....doh...wrong thread!)
Steve


Yes, thats much better thanks :) Might just take a day or two to get this sand out of my ear though. Maybe the birds head pic will go soon too, he's kinda ugly really...

[Wanderer]

Blue Gray (I think) is a rep point from somebody that doesn't have a lot of rep points....moderators...am I correct? Please give me brownie points, with lots of fudge!!!

By the Way, I tried to give you cosmos some negative points....but the computer told me, you cannot give rep points to this creature of God, so he will get a green rep point instead!!!!

Figure that out!!!!
right you are... sorry, I've given out too many brownie points today. ;)
rep happens to be my topic for june (http://www.augi.com/autocad/default.asp?page=731)...

but, it has been talked about quite a bit (http://forums.augi.com/search.php?searchid=208621)...

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

[luigi]

~smiling & thinking to self <mes0945 quoted me and responded to my post>~
~very happily I shake my head and continue searching the forum~


right you are... sorry, I've given out too many brownie points today. ;)
rep happens to be my topic for june (http://www.augi.com/autocad/default.asp?page=731)...

but, it has been talked about quite a bit (http://forums.augi.com/search.php?searchid=208621)...

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

[cosmickingpin]

Now the Brady Bunch moment
I think we have all learned a valuable lesson here kids,
1. There are those of us who are noticing disturbing new trends of other people noticing disturbing new trends here on augi.
2. Friends don't let friends drink and give bad rep points.
3. When it comes to rep points red is bad, green is good, grey means "are you such a loser you have to create dummy accounts to give yourself rep points"
4. When someone is being overly negative (although no one can really pin point what that negativity really is) it is a lot easier to just nicely tell them to lighten up in a friendly manner, this will help you to make friends and influence people.
5. Greg really got the cool room when he moved up to the attic; Bobby and Peter, really blew it, and should have been less jealous (The now infamous incident with running the masking tape down the center of the room was the straw that broke that camels back) as it meant more room for them in their room and should have stood with Greg united against Marsha and her play for a bigger room all to herself, besides Greg probably would have let them watch when Mom, Marsha, and Jan made their late night visits.
6. Be careful throwing footballs, you might bust someone's nose just before the big dance.
7. There is no lesson #7
8. Did Alice really have to wear that drab prison dress all the time?

Extra bonus question, what was the dog's name on the Brady Bunch?

Give up, no not Tiger, the dog on the Brady bunch was Cindy, nice try though, and thanks for playing...


~smiling & thinking to self <mes0945 quoted me and responded to my post>~
~very happily I shake my head and continue searching the forum~

[iru69]

rep happens to be my topic for june (http://www.augi.com/autocad/default.asp?page=731)...

Interesting... Good to know. I had no idea what all those little green lights meant or how any of that rep stuff worked. Thanks for the link.

[John K.]

There are 3 colurs, red, green and grey/blue? not sure what a grey/blue one is??

Grey/blue? My monitor shows it as somewhat purple(?) which I defined as the color "bruised." [As in "bruised ego"]. A funny thing happened on the way to the forum. I wanted to add something to my sig. which I knew would was likely to offend approximately 51% of the US regulars. By mid-day my reputation had dropped from a low-level of green to puple [blue/gray]. The number on my profile showed -11 karma(?) points. I happened to notice this after being asked by one of our moderators to change my sig'. Since the linked photo had a rather strong political message, I assumed I was being censored so as not to offend. Turns out the damn picture was just obnoxiously large -- rather than just obnoxious. At any rate, after some wailing and gnashing of teeth -- to myself -- not on the fora -- I posted this in response to a little friendly ribbing.


Originally Posted by Kroke
*Note* isn't there some sort of a signature limit as far as image size? Shiat John.

Originally Posted by John K.
In fact, apparently there is -- as Steve Stafford pointed out -- and I changed it immediately. I notice my little green karma indicator dropped through the floor so fast it must've gotten bruised as it is now purple. [Edit: Or at least it was below zero at the time I posted this. Thanks.] Although I'd be interested to know how much of that was for the obnoxious size, and how much was due to the sentiment expressed. For those for whom it was political, I'm not sure what to say. I would hope they don't get [silently] shouted down for expressing their views.

Suddenly the ol' karma counter took off in the opposite direction and put me in the six-little-green-boxes range. Anyway, thanks to all who contributed. I realize the Rep' counter is only good for... I'm not exactly sure what. Many have complained, with some justification IMHO, that it should have more to do with technical expertise and less w/social finesse. I found I spent waaaaaay too much mental overtime worrying about it. I checked it several times over the course of the day as if I was watching stock prices waiting for the big sell or bust. Dang! The stuff I get distracted with when there's a ton of work to do(?!?). I'm still curious to know just how much of the negative or positive karma was politically motivated. But I guess that's a potential flame war for another thread or, better yet, an entirely different newsgroup.