Automatic Framing Plans (was>Ouch!!!)

[Les Therrien]

I just had a client call up and ask if my software (Revit) did automatic framing plans so that he could have it for his house. He said his framer had a set of plans from someone else that had it and it was pretty nice!

I personally do not see a need for it. My construction drawings are quite enough detailed, but I'm not the one building the house. I told him that a good framer could visualize everything in his head and didn't need it. :-(

[MRV]

Framing plans are required here (Texas).

[iru69]

Are you guys talking about the same thing? Framing plans (i.e. shows the layout of each framing member - Chief Architect can do this) versus framing plans (i.e. structural plans showing sizing an direction of joists, beams, etc.).

[Les Therrien]

I'm talking about the 3D model of the framing structure. Sort of like Softplan does.

We are not required to do a "framing plan" in the sense that you must show every single structural member.
We do of course need structural information such as beam sizes, joists direction.... but I can do that all on my floor plans. I do not need a separate drawings.

[Les Therrien]

Sort of like this!

[Dimitri Harvalias]

I have done a good deal of residential design in my time and have never been asked to produce a 'framing model' of an entire structure. If a particualr portion of framing is so complex that I don't feel it can be easily figured out I will often sketch something out in plan or axo view to help the trade (and myself) to understand how it might be done.
Plans and sections have been adequate for a very long time and I find it interesting that now that some software is capable of doing this that it becomes a requirement.
I also wonder what benefit this type of image has for the framer. Other than being a visual reference it doesn't really provide any useful information does it? Correct me if I'm wrong but it just serves to illustrate a general approach to the framing not a list of sizes and cut angles for the trade to use to pre-cut the whole roof.
I'm with you Les, a good framer should not need this sort of illustration. Not saying we shouldn't have this ability in Revit just saying that the times they are a changin'. :confused:

[Les Therrien]

Like I said; a competent framer does not need that.
If anything, I think trusting software to generate such things is dangerous.
There's no way you could actually replicate the actual frame showing all the little details.
It just comes down to the usual.
People (client) just don't understand. They're impressed by a pretty picture but haven't got a clue to the realities.

[BillyGrey]

Eye Candy
It doesn't catch fish, it catches the fisherman...

BAH!

I'll take sections and details any day of the millenium,
that's where the rubber meets the race track!

[Steve_Stafford]

Eye Candy
It doesn't catch fish, it catches the fisherman...Not to dismiss the feature...but have you met a framer who does things the same way as any other you've met? What chance is there that the software will do it either?

[Scott D Davis]

I can hear the Framer's lawyer now..."Was the framing built as you illustrated in this 3D drawing, Exhibit A?? Yes or No!!!"

[pwmsmith]

In south Florida the building departments do require framing plans with the identical information as the truss shop drawings. We also must label each truss and indicate the uplift values and metal strap to be use for anchorage. The strap must have the manuf. with the number of nails or bolts and the max loads allowable and the actual load on each truss. All trusses must be indicated on drawings.

(Is it realy necessary....?)

[trent59822]

I can hear the Framer's lawyer now..."Was the framing built as you illustrated in this 3D drawing, Exhibit A?? Yes or No!!!"

This is more reality than you might think. We had a client want to use a Revit perspective as part of his contract documents with the Contractor. I had to model exterior light fixtures and everything. I'm just glad I didn't have to do a rendering.

[Scott D Davis]

In south Florida the building departments do require framing plans with the identical information as the truss shop drawings. We also must label each truss and indicate the uplift values and metal strap to be use for anchorage. The strap must have the manuf. with the number of nails or bolts and the max loads allowable and the actual load on each truss. All trusses must be indicated on drawings.

(Is it realy necessary....?)
Seems like duplicate work...why can't the shop drawings be part of the building department submittal? For us, straps, anchorage, nailing, etc...is all on the engineered structural plans. You guys gotta keep the roofs on.....we gotta keep the whole house from shaking off the foundation!

[Rhythmick]

I also wonder what benefit this type of image has for the framer. Other than being a visual reference it doesn't really provide any useful information does it? Correct me if I'm wrong but it just serves to illustrate a general approach to the framing not a list of sizes and cut angles for the trade to use to pre-cut the whole roof.
I'm not sure about Softplan or other software that models the framing members, but SolidBuilder does cut lists for all the framing, - floors, walls, roofs. You can print out the assembly plans with the members labeled coordinated to the cut list.. It goes as far as what multiple cuts to make from what lengths to minimize waste. I dought that these features are being utilized that much though. I would think raked wall assemblies and the rafter cuts would come in handy for a framer to save some time.
I bought a liscense at a discount a number of years ago but had never given it the learning curve time for a fair analyses. I do know others that use it exclusively and believe quite strongly in it.
It has its nitch, obviously geared for the residential designer/ builder & panelized market. Last I looked it also does log construction.
If Revit had these features I'm sure I would use some of them, but I won't be posting them on the wishlist anytime soon - other than wishing to just get the framing structural to work correctly!:wink:

[Les Therrien]

That's something else they asked for.
"Quantity Take Off!"
I keep telling people that unless you are building the house yourself piece by piece, then it's useless. I know they only want it to ballpark their costs, but they have no clue as to what the labour costs are anyways! Plus I tell them it's only good if you do not waste.
Oh craziness. I know it looks impressive but......



As for Steve S.'s post on the first page. Comparing framers. I have yet to find one that will do exactly as the plans say! They all think they're designers I guess. Most of the time their changes are OK, but every now and then %#$%(#&%!!!!

[pwmsmith]

Scott,
A big 'YES', it is double work and they also want the shop dwgs with engr data, product approvals for all soors, windows, and roof at submittal. One local department required you to make a statement on the plan that you did everthing correctly and according to the building codes and sign underneath.
What is my stamp for?

[neb1998]

Perhaps implement a balluster type approach to wall, floor, and roof components where we could specify the real size of the interior components in x and y and z planes....

Could have an interesting effect, perhaps add a detail level of FRAMING where it would show only the interior structural framing members of wall, roof and floor components...

Joins could be a bit complex....just an idea, not a request

[jpolding]

While this feature isn't so useful for the average framing carpenter it would be quite useful for factory home builders. And all the more so if it could be scheduled and sent to cutting equipment.