Best way to model these pilasters?

[patricks]

In the current project I'm working on (no this isn't the messy church project from last week :p ) I have these split-face block pilasters along the exterior wall, which can be seen in the attached 3D and plan view images.

To make them I created a wall type with the same core structure as the main wall, and then used automatically embedded curtain walls inserted into the main wall, and then changed the curtain wall panel to that pilaster wall type. I did this to avoid having to do a complicated profile sketch on the main wall that I would have to change if the pilasters ever changed size or anything.

My problem is that any time I modify the main wall type (add or delete layers, change layer thicknesses, etc.), the centerline of each curtain wall panel jumps back to alignment with the main wall centerline. So then I have to go along and align the inside face of each pilaster to the inside face of the main wall.

Another problem is that I cannot join geometry of the pilasters to the main wall, so I can't get rid of those extra lines you see in plan at the edges of the curtain wall insert, and I also get extra lines on the interior face when I cut a building section and see the interior face of the wall.

Is there any other way to create these pilasters besides using the embedded curtain wall, or editing the profile of the main wall every time a pilaster occurs? Is there any way to get the geometry of the pilasters joined to the main wall? The last time I had to align all the pilasters to the main wall, I only had a lock symbol available on a couple of them that I aligned, not all of them. It doesn't make sense...

[patricks]

I should also add that I just modified the main wall type again, and I got errors for every pilaster that I had previously aligned and locked to the main wall (3 of them) saying "Constraints are not satisfied". So I had to remove constraints, it popped the pilasters back inside the main wall, so now I have to align every single one of them, yet again. :(

This is what they look like after modifying the main wall:

[daniel.hurtubise70031]

How about using a custom Wall sweep ?

[aaronrumple]

I'd just make them as a generic wall hosted model.

[patricks]

well the lower wainscot and sill blocks are sweeps in the wall types. On the pilasters, it has the block as the exterior finish layer, and then a block and sill sweep that is outset 1" from the finish layer to make it project along the bottom. I was trying to avoid having to use in-place stuff.

[cosmickingpin]

I think Aaron was not sugesting an inplace family, but a loaded component family. You can nest other components into you family and can set all the parametric parameters you like to allow for easy editing and customization. go "file>new>family>select generic wall based template and go sick on it." I do agree with Aaron this would be the best plan of attack.


I was trying to avoid having to use in-place stuff.

[aaronrumple]

Like attached. Took me a couple of minutes to build one. Doesn't have all the detail you'll want, but should point you in the right direction.

Your bracket could be built right in this family - or as a separate family. I'd tend to go with nested families in this case.

[J. Grouchy]

Perhaps I'm not reading your intent correctly, but I just created a stacked wall type that merged just fine with the adjacent stacked wall type.

(i highlighted the wall for clarity)

[patricks]

ughh don't even mention stacked wall types. I originally started this project using stacked walls (one for the wainscot and one for the upper portion) and I had a NIGHTMARE trying to get walls to join correctly all over the place. One corner of the building has a wall at a 45-deg. angle and everytime I did something it seemed like one of those corner joins would screw up. Finally I changed it all to basic walls with sweeps for the wainscot.

It's just frustrating to have to re-align every single pilaster every time either the main wall or the pilaster wall type changes.

Hmm I should also say that the reason I did the pilasters as curtain wall inserts in the first place is because the block doesn't go all the way up. It stops there underneath the canopy which is supported by the brackets (the canopy is hidden in the pic above).

[J. Grouchy]

ughh don't even mention stacked wall types. I originally started this project using stacked walls (one for the wainscot and one for the upper portion) and I had a NIGHTMARE trying to get walls to join correctly all over the place. One corner of the building has a wall at a 45-deg. angle and everytime I did something it seemed like one of those corner joins would screw up. Finally I changed it all to basic walls with sweeps for the wainscot.

It's just frustrating to have to re-align every single pilaster every time either the main wall or the pilaster wall type changes.

Hmm I should also say that the reason I did the pilasters as curtain wall inserts in the first place is because the block doesn't go all the way up. It stops there underneath the canopy which is supported by the brackets (the canopy is hidden in the pic above).

I hear ya. It's been little hassle for me, but then, my building is rectangular.

[Scott D Davis]

Any wall type can be embedded into another wall type. You are making an extra step to make them curtain walls with the "auto embed" and then switching them to another wall type. If its a non-curtain wall, there is no 'auto' embed, you will need to use Cut Geometry, pick the host wall, then pick the embedded walls.

When you align the embedded wall to the host wall, "lock" the alignment, and then you wont have to redo it if there a change.

[patricks]

hmm I didn't think about the cut geometry thing... I guess if I did that I would get a message about walls overlapping each time before I used the cut geometry tool, right?

[Scott D Davis]

Yes, you would get the message, but no action is necessary. It's a 'message' only dialog box, and you can continue working without hitting an OK or Cancel button.

Place the host wall, then place the instances of embedded walls, letting them overlap with the pop-up message. Then chose Cut Geometry, select the Host, then each embedded instance.

It goes pretty fast!

[aaronrumple]

...of course depending on the structure of the two walls - join geometry may be more appropriate than cut geometry. If I were to do this of two separate walls, I'd probably just make the pilasters of brick and no supporting structure. Using join geometry would let the main wall be continuous and act as the interior surface.

[patricks]

Okay so I actually ended up using both cut and join geometry. I placed the pilaster wall overlapping the main wall, and then used cut geometry to embed the wall as indicated by the pop-up message. Then after using cut geometry, I joined geometry to get rid of the line that was showing between the pieces, and it also got rid of the line showing in elevation view on the inside surface of the wall.

[Scott D Davis]

Would you please post a file with an example wall that you are trying to do?

[patricks]

hmm now I get to the corners of the building, where the pilasters turn the corner, and the joins look like all kinds of wierd stuff... I think I'm going to have to edit the main wall profile to get these things to work. :(

Here's an image of the corner, after embedding the wall pilaster and joining the 2 pilaster segments and everything. I'm also attaching a blank project with the 2 wall types.

[Scott D Davis]

I took your file, made the host wall turn the 90 degree corner, and then embedded a pilaster on each face, but not in the corner. I then used Trim and slected the pilaters to trim together, which gave me an image similar to yours, where the corner was wacky. I then used th wall join tool, hovered over the top of the pilaters, and clicked to select their joint, which I then set to miter. It still didn't look quite right. I then pulled the grips of the Host wall back, so the host did not meet at the corner, but the pilasters did. The pilastered then joined at a perfect corner. I then used Trim to trim the two Host walls to the same corner, and then it cleaned up perfectly!

I think the key is getting all wall joins (Host and Pilaster) to be set to Miter.

See attached file and image;

[tamas]

ughh don't even mention stacked wall types. I originally started this project using stacked walls (one for the wainscot and one for the upper portion) and I had a NIGHTMARE trying to get walls to join correctly all over the place. One corner of the building has a wall at a 45-deg. angle and everytime I did something it seemed like one of those corner joins would screw up. Finally I changed it all to basic walls with sweeps for the wainscot.

It's just frustrating to have to re-align every single pilaster every time either the main wall or the pilaster wall type changes.

Which version are you using? I think I fixed both of these bugs in the released 8.0. If you are using the lastest 8.0, I'd like to see your model with the jumping panels and incorrect stacked wall joins.

Tamas

[tamas]

You may want to change the "Cuts Wall" and "Cuttable" settings of the embedded wall sweeps. (They were new params for 8.0)


Your sweeps may not need to cut wall, but you would probably want windows and doors to cut them properly.

Tamas

[tamas]

I think the key is getting all wall joins (Host and Pilaster) to be set to Miter.

Actually no, the key is to embed the walls before they can join at the corner.

Our join detection code does not like overlapping walls. Once embedded, the overlap is gone and the joins can be established correctly.

Tamas

[patricks]

But I tried embedding the pilasters into the main wall first, and then joining the corners, and it was all wierd.

[patricks]

Which version are you using? I think I fixed both of these bugs in the released 8.0. If you are using the lastest 8.0, I'd like to see your model with the jumping panels and incorrect stacked wall joins.

Tamas

It was in 7 when I tried the stacked wall types.

Just wondering, did you guys happen to fix the corner joins of automatically embedded curtain walls? Like if I have a wall that turns a corner, and then I place a curtain wall inside the main walls, the corners of the curtain wall do not join correctly, at least not in 7 and the first build of 8 they didn't.

[patricks]

I took your file, made the host wall turn the 90 degree corner, and then embedded a pilaster on each face, but not in the corner. I then used Trim and slected the pilaters to trim together, which gave me an image similar to yours, where the corner was wacky. I then used th wall join tool, hovered over the top of the pilaters, and clicked to select their joint, which I then set to miter. It still didn't look quite right. I then pulled the grips of the Host wall back, so the host did not meet at the corner, but the pilasters did. The pilastered then joined at a perfect corner. I then used Trim to trim the two Host walls to the same corner, and then it cleaned up perfectly!

I think the key is getting all wall joins (Host and Pilaster) to be set to Miter.

See attached file and image;

YES I got it to work, thanks man! Now I don't have messy edited-profile walls to deal with.

However after I got everything joined correctly and everything, I was joining the geometry of the main walls and pilasters to make it look right in plan, and at one join geometry operation I got the message "a serious error has occured etc, etc,", so I hit the Continue Without Save button (only choice), saved the file, and then performed the join geometry operation again and it worked fine.... wierd.

[tamas]

It was in 7 when I tried the stacked wall types.

Just wondering, did you guys happen to fix the corner joins of automatically embedded curtain walls? Like if I have a wall that turns a corner, and then I place a curtain wall inside the main walls, the corners of the curtain wall do not join correctly, at least not in 7 and the first build of 8 they didn't.
I believe we still have some issue with embedded curtain walls at a corner. Can not tell for sure if it applies to your case, unless you post the problem file here.

Tamas

[Scott D Davis]

I too had a 'serious' error in your file....I ignored it and kept working....everything seems to be fine!

[patricks]

Okay cool, glad I wasn't the only one... I wonder what these so called "serious errors" could be when it appears that nothing has happened or changed and you just continue working....

[patricks]

So frustrating!

Now I'm having a problem when adding wall sweeps to these main walls. I added a vertical sweep to one of the main walls, and then when I tried to move it left or right, that corner condition reverted back to its previous messy confiugration! Not only do the pilasters disjoin themselves, but the corner join reverts back to butt when I had it set to miter! I must have fixed that same corner 5 or 6 times since I first got it in there correctly. :banghead:

Yet again I say we need something that can "lock" corner joins into one configuration, along with something that will display where joins have been locked. Like if you click on a wall with an end that has been locked into a join, some kind of symbol should appear near the end of the wall so you will know it's locked.