Modelling vs. Detailing

[mmodernc]

It seems a lot of firms are using Revit to build their model and AutoCAD to do their detailing. They say it's too hard to detail in Revit, it does not produce drawings the way they like, modelling every component makes the whole system slow down so they do their kitchens, bathrooms etc. as 2D not 3D items and so on.
It seems that this breaks the very workflow that Revit is supposed to facilitate.
Is this a:
office/industry culture problem?
sales ploy?
a hardware capability problem?
a communications problem?
a training/experience problem?
a Revit scalability/code/platform(Windows) etc. problem?
all or none of the above?
or maybe something more sinister.

It seems the bigger the job gets the more people are defaulting to Autocad to do the paper crunching.

Are there offices out there that are using Revit for all their design and documentation or is Revit Series a must?

[Les Therrien]

I personally am slowly converting to 100% Revit. The only thing I don't do in Revit yet is my sections. I know the detail components are there but I have a huge library of cad details (from ACAD and ADT) that I can quickly adjust and import onto a sheet.
Other than that, it's the notating a Revit section that I haven't figured out how to do quickly yet.

Once you get a few more responses to this thread, you'll find there are a number of people at this forum that are using Revit 100%.

I think the purpose of the Revit Series is for the above mentioned and for people that may be hesitant to making the switch to Revit. I do not believe it's a ploy.
With new software comes that adjustment period of finding which way works best for you. I think the Series merely helps ease the growing pains and give confidence to those who are nervous in using Revit for everything.

my $0.03

[ejburrell67787]

100% revit here. Project sizes currently range from garage / studio / conservatory house extension to a 4 storey building with 45 flats.

[Les Therrien]

100% revit here. Project sizes currently range from garage / studio / conservatory house extension to a 4 storey building with 45 flats.

Elrond,

How do you go about the notes for your details/sections. Don't tell me you re-type them for every project! What your secret?

[Steve_Stafford]

There are a couple very rational reasons to use AutoCAD details or do detailing in Revit.

First, if you have them already and can place them on a sheet in Revit with minimal effort, why recreate them. As long as the number of them in your project doesn't affect performance adversely then why spend your money on tasks with little value ROI (right now anyway). When you need to create a new version of an existing detail, do it in Revit and spread the cost of converting your library to Revit format over many jobs.

Having said the above please don't think I'm advocating that all firms should only reuse their existing details, it is a balance during tranisition. There are lots of excellent reasons to make your details in Revit, lots of posts on this subject already. I'm just saying that not every firm has the same "stomach" for the cost involved to dedicate staff to retooling a library of details at one time.

Second, a firm's staff will not all be proficient at the same rate of speed even with the best training in the world. A practical approach to rolling out Revit for firms is to assign some task to AutoCAD and those users. The next project they do more with Revit and less with AutoCAD.

There seems to be quite a bit of assumption and misinformation created from what amounts to a marketing device to put Revit in the hands of architects who are wary of changing their existing methodology. The series means they have both and can use both as much as they decide they need to. Revit does not need AutoCAD to document a building. It is inevitable that it must work with AutoCAD or Microstation though, since consultants are using them.

[ejburrell67787]

Elrond,

How do you go about the notes for your details/sections. Don't tell me you re-type them for every project! What your secret?
Keynote families, with a family type file. I think there have been some pretty extensive discussions about them here already. Once you have done it once you can export to a file, make it a fmaily type family and away you go! Otherwise you can always cut and paste from project to project if you really need to - which I have done on some occasions!

If you do a search you should find some pretty extensive explanations.

hope this helps, Elrond

[Lashers]

99.99999% Revit - I can only get OS Maps in autocad. So I use Autocad for 5min. at the beginning of my jobs, and Revit for everything else.

Revit is not difficult to detail in, its just different from Autocad. That's why people say Revit is difficult to detail in!

. . . to learn to swim, first you must get into the deep end . . . paddling won't get you anywhere.

for what its worth . .

[mmodernc]

Probably the biggest problem is not enough cad managers/revit users are referencing/getting involved in this forum. Most of the items listed at the beginning of the thread have been extensively dealt with and quite a few responded to by the Revit crew as new tools and improvements in the program. Keynote/family/style override etc. are all tools which will significantly leverage Revit's engine. Also breaking up the building and linking seems to be popular e.g. WTC team and offices here with a fair bit of Revit time under their belt.
Would having the Japan Meteorological Super computer help?
Main reason I raised this issue is that it has come up a lot lately at talks , user groups and potential (architect) clients.
Would it be too much to ask a few of the 100% Revit detailers to post a couple of their typical 1:20, 1:10, 1:5 details showing use of keynotes etc. or to point to threads where they have been posted already.

[mmodernc]

could we have a poll people who detail in revit vs prople who use autocad

[gbrowne]

This is a tough one:

I spend my day printing off, sending out, altering .dwgs, which for the forseeable future is the de facto standard in the building industry, so I still use acad every day, and when you have a 2D drawing already done, it takes much willpower to start again in revit, especially when there is a time restriction, which there always is.

As for detailing, like anything, once you get the hang of it, its fine. Again it takes a bit of a leap to stop using something you are completely clued up in to start using something which sometimes feels like its all back to front. The point overlooked is the connectivity of having a revit detail in revit. Besides you can link in cad details anyway.

The hard part is doing it the first time.

[J. Grouchy]

Personally, I get frustrated enough going back to ACAD that I'd rather spend some extra time redrawing it in Revit. Even when I import from ACAD, I often find I have to redraw stuff anyway to get it to look right (i.e. dimensions and text).

I say 'Let it go, guys'...just let ACAD go. Why must you hang on? Detailing in Revit is not difficult at all and the results are often much cleaner and presentable.

[Sweetshelby]

We are also using Revit 99%, the only time we have to use CAD is to export to our consultants.

I would also like to see some people post some details and sections so we can see how others are doing them. I think seeing how others have done sections & details will help more people to feel confident that it can be done. Also we could learn from each other on what to do or not to do! We have had a couple of issues with sections and we are still trying to figure out the best office standard for drawing them.

We have 2 ways we do sections:

1 is we used the model as a background to draw all the detail needed for our sections then we turn the display model off and are left with detail components and lines. This works ok but you have to basically redraw everything.

2 is we only turn off model objects that are not showing up exactly correct like floors (because of slope) and then we draw only what is needed to finish the section or detail. This way is faster but takes a little more finesse to hide lines that don't look right.

We have been having some problems with section breaks has anyone else?

I really think this biggest issue is content! There just is not enough yet and people are not posting what they have made! We could do our drawings so much faster if we did not have to spend so much time creating detail components and families.

[Lashers]

I have been adopting the full draw method and turning off the model. Some shown below - with the roof example, the roof tiles are via ACAD from the manufacturers web site.

[GuyR]

Lashers,

Kind of OT, a ? You've done a sterling job thermally isolating the floor. It's not obvious but with the metal stud framing do you thermally isolated thisto the same degree?

With regard to detailing, I can't quite understand why you and SweetShelby are turning off the models. Unless these details/ sections are totally unique to the project there seems to be a lot of common construction elements ripe for family creation?


I really think this biggest issue is content!

Disagree. The problem is (in order of importance) management attitude, office procedures, good family templates and confidence with the family editor. Yes, sometimes you're just trying to get the job out the door but if the detail (or a variation) is used in multiple places and across multiple projects then it's worth doing.

You don't have to make them parametric straight away. Or if needed you come back and make them parametric after you get the job out the door .

Use other peoples families to learn from but be careful using them in your projects without testing them thoroughly. I've often found myself redoing them either to get them to work properly or graphically match my office standards.

HTH,

Guy

[bowlingbrad]

I've seen some wonderful stuff coming from andrebaros. In my mind, he is taking Revit pretty far. He is using detail components within families and sweeps that show only in fine view. This allows for a very complete detail cut anywhere. I aspire to his greatness.

We have started implementing his techniques within our sweeps and families and are seeing some great benefits. Can't wait to start the next project and exploit this feature fully.

[Sweetshelby]

We turn of the model because we have just found it simpler than trying to hide or change things that aren't showing up correctly.

As for the content we have spent the time to build up our library but not everyone in our office is proficient with family creation. We are slowly building a nice detail/ Family library but it would be nice (like in CAD) if there was a huge library of standard construction details to choose from.

If anyone would like to share theirs please post it! :)

Thanks

[christopher.zoog51272]

We tend to leave the model on, and use detail components where needed. But it depends on the situation. If you do a little bit of thinking ahead to can get pretty good looking section with out too much linework. We like to force the model to do most of the work. Also we use the edit cut profile tool liberally.

-Z

[Sweetshelby]

. Also we use the edit cut profile tool liberally.

-Z
Do you have problems when a wall or model object is moved and the edit cut profile needs to move or change. That is the problem I am running into now. This is an older project (which we also did the way you are saying you do) that came back to life recently and we had to remove an entire level from a building and all the sections have to change. The details from the roof and the 2 floors above the level we had to remove must be brought down 11'. That was easy enough but walls had also shifted and now the sections are a mess. Because there were so many edit cut profiles and filled regions they are pretty messed up. How do you deal with changes?

[christopher.zoog51272]

. Also we use the edit cut profile tool liberally.

-ZDo you have problems when a wall or model object is moved and the edit cut profile needs to move or change. That is the problem I am running into now. This is an older project (which we also did the way you are saying you do) that came back to life recently and we had to remove an entire level from a building and all the sections have to change. The details from the roof and the 2 floors above the level we had to remove must be brought down 11'. That was easy enough but walls had also shifted and now the sections are a mess. Because there were so many edit cut profiles and filled regions they are pretty messed up. How do you deal with changes?How liberal is liberal? We probably use it about 3 or 4 times per section for things like creating tapered insulation, and haunch footings in the middle of a slab (we use floor slab edges at the end of slabs). We also lock the edit cut profile lines to the model. We keep filled region use down to a minimum, so we tend to lock them too. Are general rule of thumb is, if there is a way to do it by modeling it, model it. This allows for much more flexibility for major changes late in the game. Join geometry is another tool that we use a lot. JG can help clean up many situation easily.

[PeterJ]

Join geometry, edit cut profile, allow floor to cut wall.

Detailed components, filled regions

Switch off bits of model

That is pretty much the order in which I approach getting a section to look right. A handy filled detail component to add to your toolbag is a stretchy timber piece, which can be made the right width and height everytime you need a timber batten and a stretchy multi-material block. This can be made instance-based so that you place it stretch it to fit and then change the material, that is a quick helper for building up detail.

[Lashers]

Lashers,

Kind of OT, a ? You've done a sterling job thermally isolating the floor. It's not obvious but with the metal stud framing do you thermally isolated thisto the same degree?

With regard to detailing, I can't quite understand why you and SweetShelby are turning off the models. Unless these details/ sections are totally unique to the project there seems to be a lot of common construction elements ripe for family creation?

. . . .

Guy,

Thanks for your comment, I guess I may have been a bit OT . . I was having too much fun at the time . .its a detail for my own house. The metal stud is insulated on the outside with a 12mm cement board, 80mm insulation and STO 6mm render now and the framing is also insulated between the studs as well (many a dark night with my wife and I stuffing insulation in . . romance is not dead!)

Regarding the turning off of the model, its what I knew at the time, I am still learning the finer points of family creation and selectively hiding elements of the construction . . I only set up my business in Sept '04 and most of my jobs have not reached the detail design stage . . or are just not in the bracket of some of the projects I see here where they are highly detailed in the model . .I shall live and learn . . .