Anyone using Parameteric Keyotes? Assembly Codes?

[crarchitect]

Hello Reviteers,

Happy 5:15pm Friday to anyone lucky enough to still be on the keyboard.

I am still right in the middle of trying to develop/discover a solid keynote technique. Today's question has been channeled to the always helpful staff at Autodesk. I figured I would copy you folks also because I am interested in getting a REAL answer. Any help is much appreciated as always.

Here's the non-too-helpful response from support with my response:
Thank you for choosing Autodesk Subscription. Here is the recommended resolution to your Support Request:

There have been many requests for changes in keynoting and Revit development is looking at ways to improve them, but there are no plans to do so in the next release.

If you want to modify the Assembly Codes yourself, you can do so by modifying the "response.txt" file, which is located in the Revit program folder.

So I responded by with:

Hello Autodesk,

Thank you for your prompt response. It is unfortunate that your team had not embraced the MasterFormat yet. I know you will. In the meantime, I guess I will have to create a MasterFormat database myself. Do you have any other users who have attempted or even completed such a task? It would be very helpful to work with someone who has created this data already- even just as a guide.

Related to your response, we are not currently making good use of the Assembly Codes in our REVIT model or construction documents. But, we are not going to adopt the outdated Uniformat. Perhaps I could replace the Uniformat information with Masterformat information. But the question then becomes, how can I link the Assembly code info into our keynotes?

The basic desire (and I assume that ALL REVIT users will share this need) is to have the Construction Document keynotes “know” what it is they are pointing at. For example: when applying a generic master keynote to a Metal Door, the keynote would say METAL DOOR, section 1234. If we attached the same generic keynote to a Wood Door, the same keynote would return WOOD DOOR, section 6789. We would like the KEYNOTE to read it’s info from the component. Is this possible?

This would create truly a parametric relationship between the component and the keynote. Change a component, and the associated keynote changes. Do you have a keynote method which embraces this connectivity? Please let me know as soon as possible- I am in dire need of a solution for our current new project.

[archjake]

It sounds like you need to develop a tag that would take the CSI information from one of the families parameters. You may be able to develop a multicatagory tag that points to a common parameter that all your families share. Then you would have to make sure that your families have the correct information filled in for that parameter. Then you could just insert your family, tag and move on.

I have developed CSI keynotes. Do a basic search in the forum and you will find one of my examples. Others have posted CSI keynote examples as well, but they don't have the "Smarts" that you are looking for.

Good Luck.

[mmodernc]

I still reckon we need tags for everything that work in any view.

[SkiSouth]

While server was down looked at the Uniformat classification furnished with Revit. This type is available in most families. The idea I had was to take and classify your family reworking this file. (Using Condoc rather than uniformat). This file is "hardcoded" pretty much in Revit, or at least couldn't find the txt file defining the parametrics. The advantage would have been you simply point at an element with a multicategory tag, and the condoc number or description comes up. A couple of issues. Couldn't get it to recognize detail families, couldn't tag except in plan view, had issues changing the numbering system, etc. Basically, it didn't work. You'll have to manually build your system has Jake has eluded to. Check out the Condoc Tutorial. You'll see the process, although it has limits.

PS to moderators: Spell check is down....(fatal error - 8:03 CST Sunday)

[daniel.hurtubise70031]

Can you point us to that tutorial, i couldnt find it running a search.
Thanks

[archjake]

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=14321

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?p=89246#post89246

[GuyR]

This file is "hardcoded" pretty much in Revit, or at least couldn't find the txt file defining the parametrics

UniformatClassifications.txt, in the program directory. You can modify it and when Revit starts the file will be available. CAUTION, backup the file before experimenting.

Guy

[SkiSouth]

Sorry I wasn't more clear.I modified the Uniformat.txt file. I was refering to the txt file that holds the parameter definitions, like assembly, assembly description, and the revit categories of Wall, roof, etc. (like the -2100011 designations indicating that this code is a Wall, or the -2000032 indicating this designation is a floor assembly) If you note the Uniformat is not in the same format as the keynote databases, as it appears to be scanning for different information. It is sorted on the first character, then two descriptions ( one a set maximum length, the other not? apparently tab separated?), and a "tab setting" indicating the appearance in the pop up, and then the Revit Category designation number.
Could not find where this type of database structure was controlled.

[GuyR]

txt file that holds the parameter definitions, like assembly, assembly description, and the revit categories of Wall, roof, etc.

Hardcoded I think.


If you note the Uniformat is not in the same format as the keynote databases,

Now I'm lost. What keynote database? There's always shared parameters and the API ;-)

Guy

[SkiSouth]

Now I'm lost. What keynote database? There's always shared parameters and the API ;-)

Guy

Sorry, wrong term. Type catalog. The first line of a type catalog sets the definitions following. The Uniformat ignores that rule, so its another animal. The neat thing about expanding (would it have been possible) No look up would have been required, as it would be embedded, thus a nested detail (wall section etc) could be immediately be annotated simply by selecting the objects in the view.

[crarchitect]

Great points of discussion on this topic, thank you for the replies. The Factory sent me a mulit-category tag to play with. But, SkiSouth already pointed out the flaws:

"Couldn't get it to recognize detail families, couldn't tag except in plan view, had issues changing the numbering system, etc. Basically, it didn't work. You'll have to manually build your system has Jake has eluded to."

This glowing description of the multi-category tag does not make me want to invest the time to encode a masterformat parameter into every single component. I had expected the detail components to be a problem. THANK YOU SkiSouth for investigating the m.c. tag.

But, making my own excel database to write a txt file to run a type catalog for Condoc which would have to be edited, re-exported, and reloaded every time you want to see a new note appear, seems like a laborious route. AND, this method is not using the model dbase to run any parametric tags which is the whole pointin the first place!

Am I missing something? Any Forum support is much appreciated, thank you.

[SkiSouth]

As a brave few have pointed out in the tutorial link on condoc, you will really need 16 type catalogs for the condoc system (otherwise its hits an apparent memory limit). I'm not where I can test it now, but I believe you can edit a keynote on the sheet (just being aware it changes ALL similar keynotes in the project) so you could add/change a note on the fly, with the caveat that it would change all so defined keynotes in the project. (you'll need a generic note to work with in addition to the type catalog). The edit/re-edit would be in a central file (I would hope) with a single responsible person to update the type catalog, or you'll wind up with some conflicts. (Might want to agree on a schedule to update by also).

[crarchitect]

Thanks for the reply SkiSouth,

I am afraid to ask, but Masterformat does not follow the 16 CSI divisions per se, rather 49. And with the XX XX XX breakdown providing a large array of finite data, I wonder if this will quickly hit the size limit you described.

I can hardly believe there isn't a more straightforward method. The Condoc tutorial was very helpful, and educational, but this whole method lacks a link to the model component.

Should we combine the two? Put an assembly code and it's label in the Condoc.rfa? Would that mean the assembly code would need to be a Shared Parameter? And, can we use Instance Parameters in this way?

Sorry in advance for all basic questions. You folks are a great support network. I hope to be contributing member soon!

[SkiSouth]

Thanks for the reply SkiSouth,

Should we combine the two? Put an assembly code and it's label in the Condoc.rfa? Would that mean the assembly code would need to be a Shared Parameter? And, can we use Instance Parameters in this way?



That was my idea when I was poking in the assembly (uniformat) database. Unfortunately, that's not a viable option. Still tinkering, but no straight forward answer, or the guru's would have already pointed it out to us...

[GuyR]

That was my idea when I was poking in the assembly (uniformat) database.

Is there a link to a simple explanation of the masterformat format? Or can some post an example of how you would want it to work. Email me if you don't want it published.

I'm playing with the API at the moment and I know this isn't the best solution but given the perceived lack of movement from the factory on this issue it might be a reasonable stop gap measure. The API also allows you to do some interesting things people might not thought of...

For the factory:

""" We know you have development priorities but your silence on this issue (since V4.5) is disappointing. As much as Revit is BIM, we still need to detail drawings. Keynoting is a big part of this which requires as much coordination as any other aspect of our documentation.

Can you at least let us know what the issues are? Are we not providing you with enough examples of what we want? Should we spend time developing an API based interim solution (ie nothing coming in V9) ?

Even a sheetbased parameter for existing keynotes would be a start."""

Guy

[SkiSouth]

couldn't tag except in plan view, .


Chris, just to be clear, I couldn't tag what I wanted to with the multi category tag in section. The tag will work in section. I wasn't very clear on that - Sorry.

[janunson]

Thanks for the reply SkiSouth,

I am afraid to ask, but Masterformat does not follow the 16 CSI divisions per se, rather 49. And with the XX XX XX breakdown providing a large array of finite data, I wonder if this will quickly hit the size limit you described.

I can hardly believe there isn't a more straightforward method. The Condoc tutorial was very helpful, and educational, but this whole method lacks a link to the model component.

Uniformat: http://www.csinet.org/s_csi/sec.asp?TrackID=&SID=1&DID=6023&CID=127&VID=2&RTID=0&CIDQS=&Taxonomy=False&specialSearch=False
Master Format:
http://www.csinet.org/s_csi/sec.asp?TRACKID=&CID=5&DID=5

AFAIK - Masterformat IS CSI, and the 16 divisions have been updated to 49 for CSI.
Masterformat and Uniformat aren't really that interchangeable - Master format categorizes by item type, Uniformat by system membership (shell, floors, etc.) Uniformat is great for outline specs, masterformat for construction specs. Uniformat is good for more general data and Masterformat more specific. I think to do Masterformat, you'd need to add a shared parameter for the CSI number for each item in addition to the Uniformat number.

also - i agree that all tags need to work in elevation/section view in addition to plan, even room tags have this annoying limitation.

[crarchitect]

Hello fellow Keynote Pioneers,

Again, thank you all for the excellent dialog. What happens when Guy puts a statement out straight to the factory? Do I need to copy this comment into my current help request?

And to be clear, Yes, I too have put the multi-category keynote on an elevation- thanks. Skisouth. And regarding the final format: CSI/Uniformat/Masterformat I hope that this is a small issue, I see the bigger problem is that there is no accessible and uniform object-keynote link.

Should I include Guy's comment in my Keynote Help Request?

[David Conant]

We are aware of the value of data driven keynoting. To achieve it we need to understand the range of ways keynoting is used in practice. Your specific feedback here will be helpful in setting development priorities. Think about the results you want to get and not about the specific techniques required to achieve them.


What value do you use for the key?
Is the same key system used in all views?
Are keys solely a property of elements?
Can keynotes be created that do not point to specific project elements?
Do you use different keys for the same element? In one view?
How many different keys may be associated with a particular element?
What is the graphic appearance of keys?
Do you create keynote legends on a sheet by sheet basis, one for the entire project, or some other system?
What is the graphical appearance of your legends?
If you produce legends on a per sheet basis, are key values consistent across the entire project, or is uniqueness preserved on a sheet by sheet basis only?
Do you have a standard keynote table?
Is a single table used in multiple projects?
What is the data scheme (columns) in your table?

[SkiSouth]

Thanks David. Excellent questions. Will post AFTER a little thought put into it.

[GuyR]

Thanks David, it's appreciated. Will put together some examples and post after some thought. I thought someone from the Factory would be watching ;-)

Guy

[aaronrumple]

We are aware of the value of data driven keynoting. To achieve it we need to understand the range of ways keynoting is used in practice. Your specific feedback here will be helpful in setting development priorities. Think about the results you want to get and not about the specific techniques required to achieve them.

What value do you use for the key?
Is the same key system used in all views?
Are keys solely a property of elements?
Can keynotes be created that do not point to specific project elements?
Do you use different keys for the same element? In one view?
How many different keys may be associated with a particular element?
What is the graphic appearance of keys?
Do you create keynote legends on a sheet by sheet basis, one for the entire project, or some other system?
What is the graphical appearance of your legends?
If you produce legends on a per sheet basis, are key values consistent across the entire project, or is uniqueness preserved on a sheet by sheet basis only?
Do you have a standard keynote table?
Is a single table used in multiple projects?
What is the data scheme (columns) in your table?
1. We currently use 04-01, where the first two digests relate to CSI divisions 1-16 and the last two relate to just a random sequence of numbered notes. In theory the last two numbers come from a matser list. In reality, they get changed projecvt to project. I'll be revising this to be more in line with Masterformat 2004 and closer to Con-Doc. Generic notes will be "fixed" and stay the same on all our projects. There will be project specific notes in a format of the user defined fields of Masterspec 2004. We have this for AutoCAD as a custom routine now.

There is no graphic associated with the note other than a leader. I'd like to be able to move the keynote ssytem from SD/DD/CD and use full text notes at SD/DD and switch to numbered notes at CD. I'd also like the same leader applied to all the noted. Using a annotation and catalog - each note has to manually get the leader turned on - very time consuming.

2. Yes.

3. No. Keynote will need to be both object based and free floating as somtimes it is descriptive of something not in the graphics. (Bolts, anchors or other 2D linework items.)

4. Yes. However this would egnerally be grouped under typical notes.

5. Like elements in a wall? Sure one wall with lots of keynotes associated with it. Many instances of this.

6. Not sure I understand the question...

7. Just a note. See above.

8. Notes per sheet and a masterlist on a separate sheet. We can't do this in Revit without spending a lot of time right now - so a full masterlist is used on each sheet.

9. No graphics - just text.

10. Yes, all are the same throughout the project. (I hope across all projects soon.)

11. Yes. We'd like to store it in Access or Excell so it can be updated and we could use the same database for both AutoCAD and Revit.

12. YEs. See above.

13. You have one of our projects with keynote on your buzzsaw site right now. It does the best we can with what is in Revit now.

We need a UI that allows for quick picking of a note. The masterlist needs to be fliterable for keywords and division numbers. Same if a note is changed. Of course the more notes derived from actually objects the better.

[bpayne]

Refer to notes added below!


We are aware of the value of data driven keynoting. To achieve it we need to understand the range of ways keynoting is used in practice. Your specific feedback here will be helpful in setting development priorities. Think about the results you want to get and not about the specific techniques required to achieve them.

What value do you use for the key? XXXX, where the first two place1s are the csi catagory and the last are generic 01-99
Is the same key system used in all views? Yes
Are keys solely a property of elements? No
Can keynotes be created that do not point to specific project elements? Yes
Do you use different keys for the same element? Yes In one view? Yes
How many different keys may be associated with a particular element? Unlimited
What is the graphic appearance of keys? Stretched Hexagon to fit 4 characters
Do you create keynote legends on a sheet by sheet basis, one for the entire project, or some other system? Sheet by sheet
What is the graphical appearance of your legends? graphic symbol w/ text
If you produce legends on a per sheet basis, are key values consistent across the entire project, or is uniqueness preserved on a sheet by sheet basis only? Consistant
Do you have a standard keynote table? No
Is a single table used in multiple projects? No
What is the data scheme (columns) in your table? Symbol, Description

[GuyR]

1. unique number currently, the closest to a 'standard' NZ has is masterspec which uses a version of masterformat I think, called CBI -http://www.masterspec.co.nz/cbi.asp

2. Yes

3. No, some general notes not tied to specific elements. Tying to details, profiles etc would be nice.

4. Yes, either grouped separately or via category

5. Not more than one per element generally, would be nice though. Definitely more than one per view

6. Currently 1, but in future definitely more than one if this was possible.

7. See attached. If you mean graphical keynotes that would be cool!! Not something I do currently.

8. Notes per sheet and currently looking at generating an external masterlist.

9. Standard schedule options, see attached.

10. Key values consistent across the entire project.

11. Yes, standard keynote table plus project specific as well.Use type catalogues and export schedule to extract new notes to add to the stndard TC.

12. Yes.

13. See attached family, unique number, short description, full description, sheet number, detail number, category.
detail number and category are additional filters I can use to fine tune the schedule look if needed. Thinking about adding some visibility parameters as well.

[crarchitect]

Thanks for asking the questions David:

1. What value: We would like to embrace the Masterformat 00 00 00.123A format.
2. Yes, consistent value for unique keynote data.
3. Generally yes, however, a process may need to be keynoted. Ex: float new conc. slab to match (e). There is no tiny shim of a float slab in the model, but we need the note.
4. Yes, see above.
5. Not generally. unique items get unique keynotes. Is this an instance vs. type parameter issue? Can we track the instance parameters also? Also, what about pointing to an overall wall assembly, versus a just gyp.bd. layer, vs. just a metal stud?
6. Many keynotes per view.
7. We use a elongated hexagon (see attached.) can you get the box graphic to stretch if you need to use the suffix numbers? 00 00 00 can be generic vs. 00 00 00.123A for your specific component. See how the specific one is four digits longer.
8. Entire project
9. Basic two column format near title block, See attached.
10. As mentioned above, absolutely consistent. Unique objects get unique keynotes. ALL equal objects get the same keynote. We currently have many instances of the same keynote symbol.
11. Not a standard inclusive table, but we would like to have a consistent body of data move from project to project. ex: Notes 1-20 are not used on every project but they should all be part of the basic keynote data set.
12. keynote number - keynote description. Note: description only appears in the schedule, not on the sheets or details.

In closing, we too use the Sheet Instance parameter to create Per Sheet shuttles and sort by this parameter. Not perfect, but workable.

Please let me know if I can provide any further data regarding this topic,

[trombe]

We are aware of the value of data driven keynoting. To achieve it we need to understand the range of ways keynoting is used in practice. Your specific feedback here will be helpful in setting development priorities. Think about the results you want to get and not about the specific techniques required to achieve them.

7) What is the graphic appearance of keys?
Please allow us to have full user interpreted / custom control over the Keynote graphic and font type and size.
I think it is crucial to not be forced to have someone else's idea of presentation graphics. I would want to create my own graphic and font and use a leader with on/off switch, as well as arrowhead options.

thanks
trombe

[Scott D Davis]

Please allow us to have full user interpreted / custom control over the Keynote graphic and font type and size.
I think it is crucial to not be forced to have someone else's idea of presentation graphics. I would want to create my own graphic and font and use a leader with on/off switch, as well as arrowhead options.
Not sure I understand where your wish is coming from. You already can make your own Keynote family with whatever graphics and font you'd like. Leaders can be turned on and off with the current Keynotes. Arrowheads are interchangeable with a bunch of different options from arrows to ticks to dots, etc.

[GuyR]

I think it is crucial to not be forced to have someone else's idea of presentation graphics.

Trombe, and others.

Having access to the development team is fantastic and almost unique outside of Open Source projects. IMO if you are at all interested in this subject please spend the time answering the questions and posting examples. The more interest and the more feedback we give the more likely the functionality will move forward.

Guy

[SkiSouth]

. Your specific feedback here will be helpful in setting development priorities. Think about the results you want to get and not about the specific techniques required to achieve them.
What value do you use for the key?
Is the same key system used in all views?
Are keys solely a property of elements?
Can keynotes be created that do not point to specific project elements?
Do you use different keys for the same element? In one view?
How many different keys may be associated with a particular element?
What is the graphic appearance of keys?
Do you create keynote legends on a sheet by sheet basis, one for the entire project, or some other system?
What is the graphical appearance of your legends?
If you produce legends on a per sheet basis, are key values consistent across the entire project, or is uniqueness preserved on a sheet by sheet basis only?
Do you have a standard keynote table?
Is a single table used in multiple projects?
What is the data scheme (columns) in your table?



1. Almost always text, format would vary from 1 to 10 characteres, with a "dash" as a valid character.

2. System yes, visual represenation of the system - No. Depends on scale and item or element shown. Prefer the keynote system to be able to have multiple lines with access to the type library for logic (y/N, materials, visible etc). I.e. I usually would define a key element with both a number and description as separate items. In different scales, I might show one or the other or both of these items.

3. No, as Aaron has said, sometimes its good just to have a "generic" keynote to be able to document a quick note.

4. Yes, see 3.

5. Yes, especially if the logic types would be available. I.e. you select wood blocking, Is the blocking treated? Y/N - Number/section would change. You have an angle drawn, is it steel, alum, etc. Material selection logic shows correct Section with only one element.
In one view? - If one detail component can have embedded keynote information, with logic (as above) then yes, you easily could have the same element in a view with different properties shown, again think of treated versus non treated wood blocking.

6. That would depend on how the keynote system was implemented. If logic T/F, If/Then statements were available, then probably one keynote could work - especially if the values set "held" as you placed items.

7. From a leader with text to a leader with a symbol containing text.

8. Usually would depend on the the office practice, sometimes even dictated by the project (U.S. Navy for example).

9. If symbol with text, that symbol would need to be incorporated into a key. Otherwise, simply the keynote designation and description.

10. per project /per office - see 8

11. No.

12. No.

13. Would like designation or description to be based on a Logic (y/n or material chosen)
see 6.

14: (I know). - Anyway - If possible, it would be good to be able to have access to read only variables inside of Revit, where you could make things "sheet aware".

[Steve_Stafford]

...I think it is crucial to not be forced to have someone else's idea of presentation graphics. I would want to create my own graphic and font and use a leader with on/off switch, as well as arrowhead options...And what would yours look like is the question asked? Surely they need some idea what users consider a keynote. I know they already have some idea, since we already have one. But the question is valid, how can you design something to be flexible and user customizable if you don't know what the user might expect?

[crarchitect]

Any responses from the Factory? Are we asking the right questions?

I have forged ahead with the Masterformat style keynote, see attached. It is a basic start, but we need to see how the data is edited and stored. WHERE IS IT STORED?

Our draftsman is creating new notes on the fly- inside the REVIT environment- but the original shared type catalog is not being updated. We have STC and even "saved out" the keynote.rfa from the project. The type catalog does not come with.

Where is it stored? How is it shared amongst projects. Any help from any other Keynote Creators is much appreciated. I am worried the type catalog data is not going to meet our long term needs. Do we really need 50 division specific type cataologs instead?

Thanks,

[SkiSouth]

Don't think the database will be updated automatically. It is a function of once the type is loaded in the project, it is native to the project. Think of the structural database. You have to select the wide flange you need, and if you need a new one you have to load it. Then if you modify the newly loaded WF, it is not saved back to the structural database (possibly screwing up the entire structure of a different project). So it is with the keynotes. The changed type " on the fly" remains with the projectand all keynotes will transfer with transfer project standards. You could create a "schedule" which will update within the project, and compare that schedule with the database to update the "central" database.

[John Anderson]

What value do you use for the key?
Would like to see masterformat with a simple format option.
Is the same key system used in all views?
A single master system. A subset per sheet type (Floor plan, elevation, section, roof plan, interior elevation, etc. A subset of that if keynotes can be aware of the sheet they are placed on.
Are keys solely a property of elements?
Mostly. Layers of roofs, floors, etc. would require separate key properties for tagging in section and detail views. Keytag leader arrow should attach to object or layer of object.
Type Properties from Master File: Masterformat number & additional subkey number -10 22 19.13 -MTP. Also, Group, such as Bath, Kitchen, etc. (descriptions and groups in Master file only, not properties.)
Instance Properties: Sub-sub-key and description, sub-sub-sub-key and description, group override.
Can keynotes be created that do not point to specific project elements?
Necessary for full flexability.
Do you use different keys for the same element? In one view?
Yes. Use instance properties.
How many different keys may be associated with a particular element?
A single key per object typically.
A special keynote tag that doesn't attach to an object and doesn't pull information from object properties but has all the same keynote properties as an object would allow full flexibility. (This tag should be able to be easily identified, by color for instance, for easy checking)
What is the graphic appearance of keys?
Several options, including width definable hexagon, ellipse, rectangle, etc.
Do you create keynote legends on a sheet by sheet basis, one for the entire project, or some other system?
Keynote legends exist on each sheet, but are often repeated across sheet types.
What is the graphical appearance of your legends?
Title plus subtitle of key symbol above keynumber column and subtitle of 'DESCRIPTION' above text column. Keynotes may then be grouped by a catagory (not related to the masterformat number) such as Kitchen, Bath, Stair-Railing, Cabinetry, Misc., Utilities, Parking, or in Sections: Roof, Walls, Floors, etc. -See attachment
If you produce legends on a per sheet basis, are key values consistent across the entire project, or is uniqueness preserved on a sheet by sheet basis only?
Keys would be consistant across the project.
Do you have a standard keynote table?
Keynote Master as described.
Is a single table used in multiple projects?
A Master set would be the basis for all projects.
What is the data scheme (columns) in your table?
By Group then Keynote number & description

[clarkitekt]

What value do you use for the key?
Is the same key system used in all views?
Are keys solely a property of elements?
Can keynotes be created that do not point to specific project elements?
Do you use different keys for the same element? In one view?
How many different keys may be associated with a particular element?
What is the graphic appearance of keys?
Do you create keynote legends on a sheet by sheet basis, one for the entire project, or some other system?
What is the graphical appearance of your legends?
If you produce legends on a per sheet basis, are key values consistent across the entire project, or is uniqueness preserved on a sheet by sheet basis only?
Do you have a standard keynote table?
Is a single table used in multiple projects?
What is the data scheme (columns) in your table?


1. We use the Masterformat divisions plus a short description for our keynotes. So the note would look something like this: Metal Roof Panels (07411). We do not use a legend specifically. The description and the number tie back into, for instance, “07411 Metal Roof Panels” in our specifications manual.

2. We use the same keynote system in all views. We generally use the same system across all projects however there always winds up being some tweaking of the actual note from project to project. So for instance we might go from the example above to “12in. Metal Roof Panels (07411)” We also have a blank field in our keynote family that we can add a more detailed description. So in the above examples we might type in the blank field (it is an instance parameter) “Wrap Felt Underlayment Prior to Flashing”.

3. Generally speaking, yes. However as mentioned before (in this string) the different components of many elements would generally have different key notes. A standard wall for example, the gyp would have a separate keynote than the metal stud. Another example would be guardrails. The guardrail has one note and the finish has another: Metal Railings (05521), High-Performance Coatings (09960). The particular quandary is, items like paint on the guardrail and the bolts that attach the guardrail to the building…they are in the real world individual elements but USUALLY they would not be modeled in the building model. So if keys belonged solely to elements??? I suppose a specific key could belong to a detail component that would be used to graphically represent the bolts and the finish keynote could just pick up on a finish parameter of the guardrail…

4. See above, but in our schema anyways, all keynotes point to an element.

5. NO. They would be different elements if we had different keys pointing to them (with the exception of say the finish key mentioned above). So for instance back to our Guardrails. We have “Metal Railings (05521)” which is a metal railing like it says. If we had an additional Aluminum railing in the same view, they might look exactly the same, but that railing would be a different element (a different family or type) and get a different keynote.

6. See above.
7. See attached.
8. See 2.
9. NA
10. NA
11. We have a database with something in excess of 5000 keynotes.
12. This master database is the basis for all projects.

13.
Masterformat Division + Description | MF Division | MF Division + Our unique ID | Description (MF Division)

The first column being the type, we use the “MF Division + Description” to generate a type that is easily identifiable in the family browser. It reads like this: “07411-Metal Roof Panels”

The second Column we use just the MF Division so we can sort the keynotes in the type catalog.

Third Column is just an identifier we use in our database so that every note has a unique number. Eventually this will allow us to tie the keynotes into our specs (if keynote 12345.AB exists then add corresponding section to specs). It also allows related notes to sort together in the type catalog (and the database) which would otherwise sort alphabetically.

Fourth Column is the actual keynote as shown above (several places…sorry).

[crarchitect]

Hello Keynote Pathfinders,

Skisouth, thank you for the direct example about the steel beams. That was an excellent way to get me to see the limits of this system. How do I share the modified keynote? I have this question in to the factory and so far they are silent.

Using Ski's example: how do you export all types of a customized family member that is driven by a type catalog for use in another project?

Thanks a ton for the help, gang. I am happy with our initial results but I am concerned about the long term feasibility of this method. And after all, my keynote.rfa is still a long way from being parametrically linked. That would be the best solution, right?

[GuyR]

Using Ski's example: how do you export all types of a customized family member that is driven by a type catalog for use in another project?

In order of power and convenience:

1.. API
2.. Note Block

With a schedule(noteblock) format the fields correctly, group by type and deselect all instances. Then export the schedule as a csv file. Add field headers and there's your type catalog all ready to go.

HTH,

Guy

[crarchitect]

Thanks GuyR, It seems REVIT holds the CATALOG data until you request a "printed" version. I had experienced difficulty making my own type catalogs from scratch. The whole export from Excel into a .csv and then rename it to a .txt was a pain. And, I was crashing my REVIT session every time I tried to load that type catalog.

Well, i stopped that! This is why we are editing within a project instead of using a text editor or Excel. Any thoughts on this? you folks have been extremely helpful so far.

Thanks,

[crarchitect]

More twists and turns on the path to keynote success:
(sorry about the verbose play by play but somebody [Factory] needs to feel my pain)

Correction: I had said that saving the keynote.rfa out of a project after many keynote types had been added to this family member inside a project would not bring new types with it. I was wrong. I had tested this method unsuccessfully using a location on our server, but once our draftsman had added many keynote types to keynote.rfa, he saved it out of a project for use in another project and it worked! The type data came with. The type catalog does not come with, but exported and reused keynote.rfa has all the added types within it!

The problems with this discovery are:
1. All revised Type data comes in as duplicates in the new keynote. Ex: you correct your note type tag 02 00 22.13 (e) sanitary waste & piping to say, 02 00 22.14 (e) sanitary waste & piping. Your revision is fine inside that Project1 but when you save the keynote.rfa out to for use in a new project, in Project2 it will have both keynotes, the original and the corrected! Same model component but slightly different type tags. That is a QC nightmare.
2. this keynote save-as technique means there can be only one current keynote.rfa. So two users can't edit the file at the same time. Every time I make an edit and re-save the note I will write over the latest version which may already contain another user's different edits all together. Editing cannot safely be done in parallel.
3. In sum, this is not a centrally shared file with access rights between projects.

Testing this method across our server works. Both saved-as method described herein and the Windows copy and paste method both bring in all project-added types with the keynote.rfa, with no type catalog required. But we can see there are serious limits to "live" data sharing. This keynote.rfa is a static snap shot- a non-linked part. I cannot see into the future to understand how this may come crashing down on us in a few weeks once we have much more data. The QC issues alone are daunting.

Can anyone give me a sanity check before we roll out this clumsy method on all three of our current residential projects?? Like all of you, we can't afford to be wasting time developing a method that is really only a interim solution. HELLLLP!

Thanks in advance, again. This forum has proved quite valuable to our team. My subscription support guy from the The Factory has been lurking on this thread, but his answers to me have not been as comprehensive as yours. Please, keep them coming.

[GuyR]

Chris I admire your persistence!


1. All revised Type data comes in as duplicates in the new keynote. Ex: you correct your note type tag 02 00 22.13 (e) sanitary waste & piping to say, 02 00 22.14 (e) sanitary waste & piping.
I've tested this and I can't replicate it unless I use a TC with the exported family. In which case it performs as you would expect

The QC issues alone are daunting.
Copy/paste and exporting families is asking for problems. How do you know you have the latest version, which project is currently editing the family etc.

I still think the best option for you at the moment is to have a centrally stored family file and type catalog.
-Don't add/change types in the project file.
-Add/edit entries in the type catalog file and load/reload the family file to update the instances in the project.

So you don't have to worry about exporting families and deciding which project has the latest version etc.Whether you use an Excel spreadsheet to edit the entries is up to you. I find editing the text file in notepad is quicker. Note this method wasn't possible in V7 because reloading a keynote family didn't overwrite existing types.

HTH,

Guy

[crarchitect]

Thanks GuyR,

I definitely appreciate your continued direction! And, the more I try to break the rules or invent new ones, the more I understand your comments. You have been right on all along!

Yes, I see the basic limitations of our current Edit-Within-Project method. But in our office, the limitation to the centrally (server) located keynote.rfa and keynote.txt is that we are running a widely dispersed office team. I have one designer in Poland (who could tag the server when required, but it's still a hassle) and one draftsperson who spends half of his day working on a commute train. He is our main production man, and with the server-based method we can't have him doing New Type creation outside the office and off-line. He usually saves to central every night after his commute, and reloads every morning before his commute.

As always, I am really quite thankful that there are other BIM teams out there pushing the same issues. I regret that my emails make me look like a complainer who is not too sharp [and I guess at least some of that is true] but I really can't imagine why this issue has not been resolved by the factory already. And, if I am going to help push the idea forward, I need to describe the limitations as I experience them. Sorry if it is as painful to read as it is to type.

[GuyR]

Christopher,

I don't see any complaining. I now understand your problem though. Replication issues of any database are a big problem. I'm not very familiar with microsoft tools but I wonder if there are some Windows tools that may help with replicating the type catalog? Rather than trying to deal with it in Revit.

Can you do versioning and change tracking with Excel, I don't know?
If not try this attached word document. SaveAs a text file and have a look at the output.
So you would have the word document on the server and set up so that people can save a local copy(is it called briefcase?) edit to their hearts content and then they can save these changes to the master file using Words standard group editing tools when they get access to the server.

With the local file, make your changes. Save as a text file in your keynote family directory and do a family reload.

I know, hardly a fantastic workflow but should work when you have a disconnected workforce.

HTH,

Guy

[SkiSouth]

Chris,
have your IT person mark the central keynote.txt file as read only. That will ensure that the file is not modified. Obviously, this is very rapidly becoming a management problem. You can use the save-as to write the mod files back to a central location to compare. You can use a programming text editor (I use multi-edit) to compare the files and see where and what has been changed.

[kurk]

Not sure I am on the same issue here, but are these keynote queries related to or affected by the ‘International Alliance for Interoperability’ (IAI) and their aim to provide an international standard for sharing building information?. Mmm they sound like something out of ‘Thunderbirds’ with a name like that…

A statement made on their affiliated BuildingSMART Australasia website is “The solution is the open, global ISO standard IFC - Information for Construction protocol. The IAI has developed a comprehensive Building Information Model (BIM) based on this standard, that also integrates geographic information system (GIS) data”.

I notice they also say “All the major vendors Graphisoft ArchiCAD, Nemetscheck Allplan and Bentley Triforma have IFC certification, and now with Autodesk Revit’s commitment to IFC compliance there is clear support as many national government agencies start to mandate BIM+IFC”. Apparently Autodesk’s ‘ADT’ is already certified??.

Is this completely separate and irrelevant to what everyone is talking about in this thread? Apologies if it is (enlightenment please?).

If not does this conflict with the Uniformat / Masterformat / CSI systems that it seems most of the Revit users on this forum are using?? (hope I am not throwing a spanner in the works!).

The architectural firm I am with in New Zealand currently uses the CBI (Construction Building Index?) which I find frustrating as it is often material based, rather than an object based systems like the Ci/Sfb system that I was used to (while working in London and at previous firms here in NZ). However, we are currently looking at a move to Revit from AutoCAD and in the process I would like to know which system to adopt for keynotes etc rather than have to change again further down the track. It seems at a glance the U.K. are attempting to implement a system called Uniclass now as their standard?, and with the other standards that are obviously out there I am not sure which way to turn.

An international standard seems like a great idea with all the internationally combined projects going on these days and the fact we all often use the same software and regularly share information such as shown on these forums.

This all probably needs to work in with the specifications produced for the projects also(using MasterSpec, SpecMan etc?), which may be too much to ask considering the number of systems and their respective companies firmly established.

Any thoughts or help on this decision? Fellow Kiwis (NZers), perhaps a more local solution the only way possible at this stage??

Cheers

[GuyR]

Kurk, you're right that IAI is based on objects and certainly relevant to the topic of keynoting. However I haven't heard of any specification system designed to work with IFC directly.CBI like uniformat and the others all have their problems. If your firm uses keynoting extensively then I think the goal at this stage is keep your data in a format that makes translation to another format as simple as possible.

Regarding NZ. You can rewrite the uniformat file for CBI. However a tricky thing to do so I'd contact your reseller and ask them what to do. PM me if you would like to discuss further.

Guy

[narlee]

I can see all the brainy people are hanging out at this thread, so let me ask:

Regarding Host Elements (walls, floors, roofs etc.): I want to be able to "subcategorize" them but there's no place in their properties box to do that. Can it be done thru Assembly Codes?

[narlee]

'Cause I've been using worksets as a workaround for visibility control.

[truevis]

Methinks this is all going to get easier in a couple of weeks.

http://www.excitech.co.uk/news/2007/revit_building_9.asp#


"Keynoting is a new feature in Revit Building 9 which improves workflow & the process of manually annotating constructions documents. Revit Building 9 automates the creation of key note legends, so you can easily update the keynote definitions which in turn updates notation throughout the whole project."

[ThinkRevit]

These files may help you.

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=134352