Exterior Wall Strategy

[gibson.tim91884]

I've been discussing this with a coworker, and would like to hear what see others think of this idea:

Our buildings usually have fairly complex elevations -- by that I mean that we use a number of different materials as a rain screen on our exterior walls - brick, split face block, metal siding, wood siding, composite panels, metal panels, etc.... The wall substrates are typically either concrete, stud and drywall, or concrete block. On the current project, we're having to create and manage each permutation of substrate and exterior material, and ending up with a weird model. For example, we have a section with brick on concrete below composite panel on concrete below metal siding on concrete, and this is between the same exterior materials on studs and drywall on one side, and brick on concrete to the roof on the other side. That's six wall types with profiles, to handle two substrates and three finishes.

So we're thinking that we'd be better of to model the substrate as one set of walls, which would be very simple to do. Then we'd go back and add another set of walls for the building envelope, exterior insulation, airspace, and rain screen. This would reduce the number of wall types to manage from (#subsrates x #finishes) to (#subsrates + #finishes).

Has anyone tried this?

[BWG]

Our buildings usually have fairly complex elevations -- by that I mean that we use a number of different materials as a rain screen on our exterior walls - brick, split face block, metal siding, wood siding, composite panels, metal panels, etc.... The wall substrates are typically either concrete, stud and drywall, or concrete block. On the current project, we're having to create and manage each permutation of substrate and exterior material, and ending up with a weird model. For example, we have a section with brick on concrete below composite panel on concrete below metal siding on concrete, and this is between the same exterior materials on studs and drywall on one side, and brick on concrete to the roof on the other side. That's six wall types with profiles, to handle two substrates and three finishes.

So we're thinking that we'd be better of to model the substrate as one set of walls, which would be very simple to do. Then we'd go back and add another set of walls for the building envelope, exterior insulation, airspace, and rain screen. This would reduce the number of wall types to manage from (#subsrates x #finishes) to (#subsrates + #finishes).


You might also look into doing a stacked wall. It can have different finishes, structures and substrates as you wish. If the core is the same, you can split up the finishes with the split region tool in the wall edit dialog. You can add sweep / reveal profiles wherever as well and only deal with one wall type. You will have to build all the conditions first before making them a stacked wall type.

[iru69]

Has anyone tried this?
Bruce has already suggested the ideal solution... however if the real world conditions don't allow for it, your solution is a good one (and has been used many times before).

Just be sure to Join the "layers" of the wall together so that when you place windows and doors, the openings are created properly.

[eddy.lermytte]

If all ends up in a irregular composed envelop which go beyond the use of stacked walls, I should also use a joined layer in front of the inner wall's as you do.

[Haden]

Just be sure to Join the "layers" of the wall together so that when you place windows and doors, the openings are created properly.
:banghead:
I have done this very thing, and I'm stuck with a situation where my doors will NOT cut through all 3 layered walls -- only 1 or another. I have been building my doors and windows using void forms to cut the openings instead of "cut openings" like the ones in default Revit doors and windows, because it's the only way to have a larger masonry opening than the opening within the body of the wall, but apparently the merged "multi-layer" walls only work with doors/windows using cut openings.

I tried splitting the outermost (masonry) "layer" of the 3 walls and splitting the interior "layer" wall (gypboard), and just leaving the door in the middle (structural) "layer" wall, but then my problem revolves around what the door thinks are the exterior and interior planes of the wall, for the purpose of locating the door frame, brickmould, etc. within the depth of the wall.

Is there someone else out there who has tried doing this with a complex exterior masonry configuration and doors/windows built using voids rather than cut openings? If so, I would appreciate your thoughts. I DON'T want to go back to the complex series of wall types (as Tim has already described) when doing the exterior walls as one single wall each.

Thanks in advance.

[eldad]

hadens,

I had to do that once and there is no escape but to use "opening..." what I did was to use a door and window family with adjustable frame and take the frame all the way to the other walls...
as you know, using empty door or window opening will not show the door/window behind in elevations and sections :(
voids will make it more complicated,

[lev.lipkin]

I wonder if the following tip could be helpful: when 2 or more walls are 'layered' (positioned with their faces aligned to each other) to get door cut through all 3 walls use 'Join Geometry' command on walls (each pair next to each other).

Caution: door instance will still use thinkness of one wall to create instance, so door family would need adjustment to fit resulting opening (as workaround, use instance level parameter to offset geometry from faces of the wall, unfortunately this would require manual input of those parameters for door instance).

[Haden]

I wonder if the following tip could be helpful: when 2 or more walls are 'layered' (positioned with their faces aligned to each other) to get door cut through all 3 walls use 'Join Geometry' command on walls (each pair next to each other).
You have described exactly what I am doing already, but the door will not cut through all 3 joined walls UNLESS the door uses traditional Revit cut openings rather than voids which can accommodate the wider masonry opening.


Caution: door instance will still use thinkness of one wall to create instance, so door family would need adjustment to fit resulting opening (as workaround, use instance level parameter to offset geometry from faces of the wall, unfortunately this would require manual input of those parameters for door instance).
After splitting the outer and inner "layers" of wall and creating a gap at the door, this works, but I will have my work cut out for me to modify my door families so that I can set the door frame at a negative depth beyond the outer face of the middle wall.

Maybe I would be better off splitting both of the inner 2 wall "layers" and setting the door in the outer "masonry layer."

[sbrown]

Curtain wall. You can now swap out panels of curtain wall with wall types making it very easy to do what you want, simple draw a curtain wall, place curtain grids where you want to break up the facade. then create your various wall types(all with the same backup structure) and start swaping.

[Archman]

Curtain wall. You can now swap out panels of curtain wall with wall types making it very easy to do what you want, simple draw a curtain wall, place curtain grids where you want to break up the facade. then create your various wall types(all with the same backup structure) and start swaping.

Good tip!!!! I'm going to have to try that one.

[david.fannon]

hadens,
what I did was to use a door and window family with adjustable frame ,

I did this also, made a window type with height and width as instance parameters, and then I align and lock the edges of this empty window family to the actual window I've placed, that way as things change, the emptiness changes. It also avoids the trouble people have identified with void objects.

[DanielleAnderson]

Curtain wall. You can now swap out panels of curtain wall with wall types making it very easy to do what you want, simple draw a curtain wall, place curtain grids where you want to break up the facade. then create your various wall types(all with the same backup structure) and start swaping.

Absolutely! I second this - I was reading down through the post wondering why no one had suggested the curtain wall tool and then came Scott. :) Curtain walls are awesome tools for complex elevations, and aside from the fact that they can be a little bit fussy, they should help you get exactly what you want.

Danielle

[Steve_Stafford]

Third it.....quick mockup I did awhile back. The rainscreen is the long panel and infills from top to bottom (one curtain wall family).