basic services - where do they end?

[Les Therrien]

I am currently working on refining my contract and trying to figure out where I should draw the line for basic services.
I specialize in residential design and cater to a wide variety of clientel.
I have some clients who want bare bones basics and some who want everything detailed to death. What I have concluded is that the best way for me to have consistency in my billing and be fair is to quote the project on a cost per square footage basis not to exceed "x" hours for changes. Anything beyond this would be billed hourly.

But the dilemna is that now with Revit, I could do so many new things efficiently therefore making it more cost effective to charge as separate options. ie Rendering, walkthroughs.... I feel I must define these items more accurately so that I do not end up doing them for free.

Although a big package deal would be ideal, it wouldn't fly with the local industry where I live (maybe in the future?).

What kind of things are you charging as extras adn how are you doing it? Hourly? Base price? I obviously cannot give a client schedules of room finishes...extra details of windows-doors etc. if the client wants basic bones design and plan to figure out some details on site as they go.

I respect your opinions and look forward to seeing what you have to say.

[J-G]

We do high end residential work and bill everything hourly. I do prepare proposals which give the clients an estimate of cost after the schematic design has been finalized. Typically renderings and interior elevations are not considered in this estimate. Personally I would define "basic" as being everything exterior and any major portion of the interior (arched openings, decorative beams, soffits, furring etc). This is needed for the basic construction of the building and needs to be done to ensure that your design is properly executed. If a design is complex enough all of your exterior details should be included otherwise a cost concerned contractor - will - omit them. ...we also consider any extensive site work, or regulatory approvals (costal commission, review boards, neighborhood committees) as being extra work that is billed hourly on top of our original proposal.

[PeterJ]

For residential stuff, which is the bulk of my work I act as below, commercial stuff may vary slightly.

For private clients I charge everything everything on an hourly rate but I give an estimate of costs in advance and also define quite tightly what I will be doing for that money. I make clear that I reserve the right to determine what is a redesign and what is a minor change, as this will affect the way the thing is billed. Anything above the defined work is still charged on an hourly rate so if the client has an additional layer of sign off, such as a Party Wall surveyor my liasion with them is chargeable. On larger projects for private clients I run the CA side on a percentage but make clear what that percentage relates to (if the Contractor over-runs by five weeks and damages are applied I don't want my fee cut back by that ammount).

For developer clients I tend to work on a fixed price basis for design and detail design, but again define very tightly what I will be doing for that fixed sum and I set the same clauses in place reserving my discretion on what is chargeable and what is not. Depending on the client CA will be on a percentage or an hourly rate. The builder developers rarely require much support and won't have a traditional contract so they tend to use me on an hourly service basis.

All of the above I then further cover by using a proprietary set of T&Cs from the RIBA and a definition of what my hourly rate is now and when in the year it changes.

I can email an example if you like.

[Kroke]

I do 'builder sets' on the side and charge xx/sf. of living area. No frilly stuff, just the minimum that is required to pass the building department. This fee also includes 8 hrs of design/changes. If that time is exceeded, then an hourly rate applies. But I also don't include any topo/survey or engineering with that fee, I sub it all out.

[Allen Lacy]

I've always liked doing residential work with a split contract. Hourly fee for design and fixed fee for construction documents. You can get killed on the design portion in residential. But you should know what it takes to do CD's after design is settled upon.

[bclarch]

The main thing is to decide what you consider your basic services to be. Then, in your agreements, spell out exactly what the client will be getting for the fee quoted. The key is to avoid misunderstanding. Most disagreeements are the result of two parties making different assumptions about the same thing. Defining things accurately in advance goes a long way toward avoiding conflicts down the road. During the contract negotiations you can always add or delete services by mutual agreement with an appropriate adjustment to the fees.

We usually limit preliminary designs to two major revisions to the original concept. (Yea, it is not always clear what constitutes a major revision but at least the client knows that infinite revisions are not an option unless the fee is adjusted.) The client is also asked to sign off on the final preliminary drawings with the understanding that any further revisions will be billable as additional services. CD production is often a fixed amount since we have more control over that. Some things are more suitable to flat fees (x dollars per rendering etc.)

As you all know by now I am also a strong advocate of not giving your services away for free. Most clients feel that renderings should be free because "all you do is click on few buttons, right?". But that doesn't account for your expertise in using the software, the cost of the software, the cost of your computer, creating and tweaking the settings for materials, lighting, textures, etc. If it has value to them, then they should be willing to pay for it. A hand done rendering wouldn't be free, so your rendering has equivalent value. If your rendering helps them understand the project better, then it has value. If your rendering helps obtain regulatory approval, then it has value. If your rendering helps them lease tenant space, then it has value. If your rendering helps them obtain financing for the project, then it has value.

Dang, my soapbox just collapsed, time to quit I guess.

[jbalding48677]

What we are struggling with is the hourly rate. If you consider that you can put together a set of drawings in Revit in half the time it would take in AutoCAD you would make half the amount of money. Considering for a moment, that you deliver the same package, where is the benefit of using Revit? Isn' t the value the same? Now throw in the fact that the set you just produced is most likely more complete and certainly better coordinated, you would think that it is worth more.

So, that being said, I would recommend estimating the job in AutoCAD terms and quote that at flat rate and put the remaining money in your pocket for that round of golf you now have time for. Or, adjust your hourly rate up about 70% or so.

[Les Therrien]

So far you are saying what I'd hope to hear.

Are any of you providing renderings as part of either basic services or package deal?

[jbalding48677]

Renderings - No

Shaded Views - Yes for communication.

[Scott D Davis]

If your client wants renderings, those are extra. They don't need to know it just takes a click of the mouse to spit out a basic one!

[beegee]

If your client wants renderings, those are extra. They don't need to know it just takes a click of the mouse to spit out a basic one!

Eventually this will become common knowledge, forcing the entire architectural community to adopt Revit overnight.

(hmmm , must have been something in my cornflakes this morning... )

[PeterJ]

i just quoted a small job for someone who wanted to do some work on a property but also wishes to ready it for sale in case someone wishes to buy it with the plans but without him carrying out the work. He asked for 'photo-realistic' images and showed me a commercial kitchen companies 'look and feel' renderings to give me a comparison.

I have set out a quote for my professional services in my standard fashion but have stated that there will be a charge for any design option he wants rendered so that I can recoup the costs of the additional modelling required and the cost of populating it with entourage, then there will be a relatively low fee for each rendered image. Seemed the right way to do it. However i now find that it is worth spewing out hidden line orthagonal views and perspectives because it saves me so much time explaining stuff to lay-clients so I find myself leaving that in for free - but making clear that the drawings in question are a by-product of my work and not a service in themselves, that way I avoid being asked to colour them up.

[bclarch]

Pete,

Your approach has a lot of validity. The way I see it, you are essentially using the hidden line views as substitutes for the old freehand sketches and are still treating renderings as a separate entity. This is, in effect, a modern electronic analogy of standard pre-CAD practices. Sounds like you've hit the nail right on the head.

[Roger Evans]

I charge for rendered views now but still show 3D Line sketches within drawing package ~ same basis as Peter
In the early stages of using Revit I produced rendered images as well
and have to say that these were invaluable in communicating the design intent ~ gave the contractor a better idea & helped keep everyone on the same track ~ so for an easier life on site it is sometimes better to include them ~ the art is in how to charge for them.

A Developer friend had a watercolour done for a one off spec house & was charged £250 ~ it helped sell the house so he was pleased.
To demonstrate the potential of Revit to my friend I produced a quick sketch render of same view in about 2.5 hrs start to finish including modelling his house with greater accuracy & the choice of more renders if needed.