Revit: What are we paying for? [Archive]

zenomail105021

2005-10-03, 07:35 PM

Just can't resist an editorial on the continual complaints and difficulties people are having with Revit that I read in this forum.

I'm not a high powered Revit user and not married to the program. Just a one man office (builder) that has used I don't know how many different computer programs, including other CAD programs, over almost 30 years trying to run my business and life more efficiently.

I am amazed and really surprised at the high tolerance by subscribers for sloppy insight and technique from the Revit people. Great potential, but Revit just ain't that good yet in my opinion. Are subscription fees considered a windfall profit and the development work just dribbled out as slowly as the market will bear or what? Beginning to kind of look that way to me. People have their opinion but I am surprised at the apologists for the program. Revit is neat, particularly the "BIG CONCEPT" i.e. BIM and the general layout but in some ways it is a real pain, the effort to alleviate being reflected in the requested for changes and complaints that things just don't work right and even if they do are tortuous to apply. The "BIG CONCEPT" is important of course but all the "little" details that make the program efficient and fun to use are very important also. The resistance to them strikes me as self defeating. What are you paying for anyway. Don't tell me the Revit people don't have the money, time and people resources. You have already paid for the "BIG CONCEPT" when you bought the program. The important "little" details that work right are what the subscription that you pay for year after year after year is for by my reckoning.

I like Revit not for what it is now necessarily but what it could be ..... as long as I don't have to wait forever.

I realize you can't have everything at once but some of this stuff that repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly shows up in these forums is reasonable and just needs to get fixed or done.

Happy days!

Bill Maddox

Tom Weir

2005-10-03, 07:54 PM

Bill,
Less apparent to you no doubt is how much has been accomplished in the development of this program. This is not an evolutionary product, but rather a revolutionary product. It sounds like you were around for the transition from hand drafting to computer cad. In my opinion it took at least five years for the process to become stabilized. The revolution now is even more diffiuclt since we are not merely mimicking hand drafting.
I am no apologist and suffer the same problems you describe but all in all it is the future. You can wait for us to work every problem out for you, or you can join us in its development. Work around the problems. My gains are still better than my losses.

Have a great day....

Tom Weir
Los Angeles

jamesd10181097

2005-10-03, 08:42 PM

I have to agree with both of you on this. Yes Revit is revolutionary. Yes it is difficult to use at times. I am happy to help with the development however, I need to get work done NOW. So many things work beautifully in Revit, but others simply do not work at all. Yes we can help to develop it into what we all want and need but when I am constantly trying to justify the cost to my employers, I am starting to lose the motivation for the justification.

I talked to a friend the other night that is looking at new cad software for a larger firm, they are looking to possibly start Revit at 40 seats and possible expand into 150 seats. I have to be honest I told him to look elsewhere. I am having trouble getting a team of 4 to get work done. The learning curve is soo steep, then the difficulties with certain things not working right. I would go insane trying to implement 40 seats. I told him that the pricipals behind Revit (BIM) is the future of architecture, but Revit is simply not at a productive state yet.

I kick myself for even typing this because I have seen how angry everyone on here gets when you say anything negative about Revit. I also may have shot myself in the foot since I rely on the assistance of everyone in this forum so much and greatly appreciate the help.

I have just run into so many problems in the last year of using Revit that it is really cutting into my production and requiring me to work far too many nights and weekends just to get the software to do what I thought it was already capable of doing.

BWG

2005-10-03, 09:17 PM

Considering that HOK is expected to be fully revitized next year, I don't see it as a problem getting the job done now.

Even with the workarounds, we have cut our design time, development time and especially construction documents time way down compared to other softwares we have used including ADT. ADT is much more difficult to learn and implement than Revit. The factory is working pretty hard to fix all these issues, but mind you that there are not as many of them as there is of us complaining. What other software out there right now is moving at the development speed of Revit and for what cost?

hand471037

2005-10-03, 09:25 PM

I kick myself for even typing this because I have seen how angry everyone on here gets when you say anything negative about Revit. I also may have shot myself in the foot since I rely on the assistance of everyone in this forum so much and greatly appreciate the help.

Hey, don't feel that way man. The two really important things you can do to help yourself, and all of us, is:

1. COME HERE FOR HELP WHEN YOU NEED IT. Seriously, why are you having such a hard time with 4 people using Revit? Don't mean to be harsh, here, but maybe you need more help with Revit, for I've worked on large projects with large teams and haven't been in the spot you are. Where's the trouble?

2. POST SIMPLE, DIRECT COMPLAINTS HERE. If the Revit team only hears vague disatifiaction with Revit, or worse just whining and complaining, nothing happens. If they hear specific cases of what it is you're trying to do, and why it's not working or working as well as it could be, then they have something to go on for the next version. I've been working with Revit for five years now. I can think of SEVERAL improvements that were made that were probably a direct result of a post or feature request of mine, where I simply stated what it was I wanted to do, and why I needed to do it, and how Revit wasn't up to it. And sometimes someone pointed out to me that I was simply doing things wrong, and when I tried it a better way it worked. Other times those complaints became features.

Case in point: You used to not be able to control Color Fill Legends, they only came in one size and one row- you could only change the Font or the Color. I was working for a place that did a lot of Facilities Work with Revit, and when we tried to use the old Color Fill Legends on letter-sized pages they took up half the page. I complained to Revit, said 'hey, why can't I format or edit the Color Fill Legends. We're trying to use them on letter-sized pages and they won't fit, so we have to make 'dumb' ones from scratch. That's silly! We should be able to edit these somehow!'. And, well, a version or two later we could all do that, for I'm certain they didn't just hear that request from me. But if all I said was 'Revit sucks for FM work! Meh!' then it wouldn't have helped anyone...

Now, if all you want to do is blow off steam and complain, go right ahead, don't let me stand in your way. If you want to help yourself and everyone else too, then why don't you start listing some of the specific things you're trying to do and can't, or the specific problems you're running into.

Scott D Davis

2005-10-03, 09:29 PM

I talked to a friend the other night that is looking at new cad software for a larger firm, they are looking to possibly start Revit at 40 seats and possible expand into 150 seats. I have to be honest I told him to look elsewhere. I am having trouble getting a team of 4 to get work done. The learning curve is soo steep, then the difficulties with certain things not working right. I would go insane trying to implement 40 seats. I told him that the pricipals behind Revit (BIM) is the future of architecture, but Revit is simply not at a productive state yet.
If you told him to look elsewhere, what recommendations did you give? Stay in 2D? Base AutoCAD? If you suggest to him that BIM is the future, but at the same time tell him to stick to anything but BIM, your advice will end up hurting him, because by the time he does come around, he will be far behind everyone else. If you did suggest alternatives to Revit, this too could set him back. Suggest ADT, and you have thrown him into the fire if you are worried about Revit's learning curve. Suggest ArchiCAD, and once again, the curve is steeper than Revit, plus you must learn a programming language, plus you must (typically) buy add-ons to do many necessary tasks. Bentley's product isn't any easier to learn than ADT.

If you are having trouble with a 4 person implementation, I would have to ask what your training was like. Sorry to hear you are having issues, but I would have to tell your friend he needs to get a second opinion.

jamesd10181097

2005-10-03, 09:58 PM

Hey, don't feel that way man. The two really important things you can do to help yourself, and all of us, is:

1. COME HERE FOR HELP WHEN YOU NEED IT. Seriously, why are you having such a hard time with 4 people using Revit? .

I do come here quite often for help. And I have received a great deal of help with many issues, I really appreciate how helpful everyone has been. It is a great community.

One of the biggest problems I am running into is not necissarily a problem with revit. It is the steepness of the learning curve. I have learned how to handle some very complicated issues in Revit however when others do not quite keep up or learn as quickly and you are working on the same project you run into alot of issues. For some reason worksets are a real issue for us. One fundamental issue I believe we need to address is that work that you change can affect something someone else is working on without you realizing it until it is too late. I do know that I do not know enough about the journal and how to selectivly recover work.

All the issues I just discussed above add to my frustration but are not what I am ranting about today.

2. POST SIMPLE, DIRECT COMPLAINTS HERE. If the Revit team only hears vague disatifiaction with Revit, or worse just whining and complaining, nothing happens. .

Now, if all you want to do is blow off steam and complain, go right ahead, don't let me stand in your way.

You are absolutely right more specific iformation is needed, they can not read my mind to know what I am taking issues with. It was mostly blowing off steam. And this was kindof a vague topic to begin with and I went with it. Also a bad day.

start listing some of the specific things you're trying to do and can't, or the specific problems you're running into.

Some of the more specific issues are:

01. Site tools, I know that still seems vague but it is my understanding that they are currently developing Revit Site. A post I read some time ago was from someone at the factory that replied to a complaint about the site tools and stated that they had no intention of developing Revit into a civil program. Although I am not looking for a civil program, I still need to deal with site work quite often. The tools in Revit for site work are week to say the least. I have not once gotten toposurface contours to match those of an imported survey. The way a toposurface works with points instead of manipulating contours is interesting and quite useful for when you want to identify point elevations, but I much prefer to manipulate a site with contours, that is more of a personal preference, I would be more than willing to deal with points if the interpolated correctly, but I have not found that to be the case. What scares me is if they do get it working in Revit Site and leave it as is in Revit Building which would require an additional purchase to do what is a essential task of architecture.

Also I have run into alot of problems with subregions, which support did help me out but I am frustrated with the workaround of draw out all of your linework as detail lines the when you create the subregion trace by clicking on all the detail lines. A few things like this are annoying because it feels like in order to save time you have to draw something 2 or 3 times which just does not make sense.

02. Currently I am running into alot of problems exporting a walkthrough AVI which is under a separate thread.

I will have to reply a little later I am a little typed out.

As for my previous message, Yes I was mostly ranting which is wrong to complain like that particularly since I know many people do take it personally.

BillyGrey

2005-10-03, 10:03 PM

Let me ask this question in the context of this thread, esp. directed to one of the developer/manager's on the team.

When can we expect to see dimensioning of non-ortho/multi layer walls addressed?

This is an issue that has been brought up time and again, and remains un-addressed through 8 full releases. It is not an option to draw little sticks at the intersections of such walls so we can hang a dim chain upon them, but in Revit's case it seems to be the only option. And I think this is a good example of the spirit of frustration that some feel in terms of the productivity drains of the program.

jamesd10181097

2005-10-03, 10:18 PM

If you told him to look elsewhere, what recommendations did you give? Stay in 2D? Base AutoCAD? If you suggest to him that BIM is the future, but at the same time tell him to stick to anything but BIM, your advice will end up hurting him, because by the time he does come around, he will be far behind everyone else.

I did not offer any alternatives. So far in BIM I have only used Revit. They are currently using ADT and he seems quite satisfied which I was a little supprized at since I did try out 3.3 for a little while and was not impressed. As far as falling behind I do not think assisting in the development like we are now will be necissary to utilize it in the future. I just think Revit right now is where autocad was with release 10 and it did not really become a good tool until 14 & 2000.

If you are having trouble with a 4 person implementation, I would have to ask what your training was like. Sorry to hear you are having issues, but I would have to tell your friend he needs to get a second opinion.

Yes I am having trouble with a 4 person implementation, and apparently from the responses I am getting that identifies me as week in the implementation end. All we had for training is a 3 day course for all of us. Since no one else seems to be quite the computer nerd that I am, I end up being the only one on here and contacting support when there is an issue. Rather than digging into the tutorials or searching for assistance anywhere else they call on me, which adds to the frustration since it takes away from my production time.

Scott D Davis

2005-10-03, 10:29 PM

Yes I am having trouble with a 4 person implementation, and apparently from the responses I am getting that identifies me as week in the implementation end. All we had for training is a 3 day course for all of us. Since no one else seems to be quite the computer nerd that I am, I end up being the only one on here and contacting support when there is an issue. Rather than digging into the tutorials or searching for assistance anywhere else they call on me, which adds to the frustration since it takes away from my production time.I would tend to think that a 3 day course would get you into/through the basics of Revit. My opinion would be to get some additional training/support, to get you over the hump so that you all can feel more comfortable with all aspects of Revit. If you are having problems with specific areas (worksets) then identifying these areas and getting specific training will help.

Since you are the one taking the lead for your team, it may be worth it for you to take additional training just on your own to further your own Revit skills so that you may help the others without needing to go to support. I understand that it cuts into your production time, but I think every firm/team needs an internal person that is not tasked with production that can provide internal support. A BIM Manager. You cannot be expected to provide support to others and also remain productive on your own. Believe me, I know how you feel!

hand471037

2005-10-03, 10:38 PM

One of the biggest problems I am running into is not necissarily a problem with revit. It is the steepness of the learning curve. I have learned how to handle some very complicated issues in Revit however when others do not quite keep up or learn as quickly and you are working on the same project you run into alot of issues. For some reason worksets are a real issue for us. One fundamental issue I believe we need to address is that work that you change can affect something someone else is working on without you realizing it until it is too late. I do know that I do not know enough about the journal and how to selectivly recover work.

You are absolutely right more specific information is needed, they can not read my mind to know what I am taking issues with. It was mostly blowing off steam. And this was kindof a vague topic to begin with and I went with it. Also a bad day.

Aw man, don't worry about it. We've all been there.

Some of the more specific issues are:

01. Site tools

Yeah. They suck. It's a shame. They haven't changed much at all. I hope they do soon.

02. Currently I am running into alot of problems exporting a walkthrough AVI which is under a separate thread.

There are very real memory problems there. One way to NEVER run into problems with it is to never export an AVI. Export the individual frames of the animation instead to single files, and then use a free images-to-AVI generator. That's what I do. That way you can also run them all through a Photoshop batch process first to make them all look 'sketchy' or to tone down the overstaturated colors that Accurender loves to generate. Having a huge Revit model open + trying to generate a huge AVI file is taxing for even high-end machines with lots of Ram, but just separating it into two steps (Export and then making the AVI) makes it work with 'normal' machines in my experance...

Hope this helps.

jamesd10181097

2005-10-03, 10:45 PM

hand471037

2005-10-03, 11:42 PM

That may help a great deal. Where do you get one of these free image to AVI generators. I had seen in other posts people refering to compiling the AVI but they always mentioned Premire which I do not have and I know the company will not pay for. If there is a free one that would really help me out.

here's what I use: http://www.ndrw.co.uk/free/jpgvideo/

they ask for a donation, but it's freeware, and it works fine if all you want is a series of images rolled up into an AVI file. There are some open-source tools out there for this as well, ranging from a full-on animation thing (GIMP) to command-line AVI rollers. But I've found the above to be a easy & quick way to do the job. If you want the others, just go to someplace like Sourceforge (http://sourceforge.net/) which is a site for Open Source software. Just by typing in 'AVI' into the search box I get many pages of programs listed, including one that looks just like the above but Open Source instead, and even some full-on video editors and such. Now, it's all Open Source, which means that it's free, but it also means that it could be linux-only or unusable or both. :D

DanielleAnderson

2005-10-04, 12:11 AM

You know, in terms of implementation, I understand how difficult it can be. It has been a struggle getting people up and running on revit, especially when they really don't WANT to use it. We have started having periodic (once a week or twice a month) revit "brown-bag" lunches where we get together as a group and discuss specific aspects of revit. It has been a great way to get all levels of understanding involved and talk about real-world issues that are affecting our day-to-day work. In a small office, this would probably be a great way of helping everyone along. Although, before you get to this point, more training may be advisable. Hang in there, it has taken about 2 years for implementation here, and it still isn't over yet...it's all about patience and having a good attitude about the software so that it's not always an office-complain-fest. :) Good luck.

Rols

2005-10-04, 03:08 AM

We've all had days like this.
Just last week I was on the verge of throwing in the towel on one of our 5 current Revit projects. The Project Architect just wasn't getting it. Rather than have him fail and then turn around and blame the software, I would have just let him finish the project in Autocad.
But then, we had a 2 1/2 hour knock-down, drag-out shout fest. In the end, I was able to show him that there are big, deep conceptual differences between Revit and Autocad. Once I conviced him that there's much more to Revit (BIM) than learning a new set of command for drawing lines, he's opening up to learning more and ranting less.
Have patience. Big changes take time. In the mean time, try to find a Revit user group, or just have lunch with someone else in your town who's using Revit. A support group is very important.
Also, if you can, make it down to Orlando and attend AU. I attended my first AU 3 years ago and it was such an eye opener to see what other people are doing with Revit. Not to mention how refreshing it was to hear all their horror stories and how they overcame them.
Best of luck to you, James.

eldad

2005-10-04, 04:46 AM

I have been using Revit for the past 2 years and have to say I love it! I tried every bit of software under the sun, you name it, I tried it! :) nothing come close to ease of use and power of Revit.
sure, it's not perfect, but man did it come a long way in the last 2 years!
when it comes to implementing Revit, you'll find that people are afraid of what's new and strange, you will need to ease them into Revit and with hands on. The best thing is to ask them to forget what ever other software they used and to keep an open mind, if you have a problem don't say "I can do it in Autocad in 10 seconds" just continue on and work it out, once you do, and remember it (unless your a goldfish) next time is easier.
Once you understand the logic behind the program you will leap forward.
Been using Revit for complicated projects that I simply would have struggled to accomplish with 2D!
and no, I do not work for Autodesk! :)

Wes Macaulay

2005-10-04, 10:58 AM

To Bill and James...

The thoughts you've been having -- is this software ready for the big time? -- are not just yours alone. We've seen some projects run by intelligent people crash and burn when the data brought down the software. We've seen teams and individuals who built their models up and then couldn't edit them in a timely fashion. We look at the bug reports and missing features -- hey, I'm the wishlist guy, I have to read it all :mrgreen: -- and so do I live with rose-coloured glasses... or what?

Bill, you talk about the Big Picture. What's worse: Revit with the needed workarounds (are they really workarounds, or just how the software works?), or AutoCAD? (I'm eliminating ADT as being viable BIM since most of our clients are, too.) Given that you have users facile with either program, this is a dumb question. This is why I will never go back. Manual drawing and schedule coordination are anathema to me...

The happiest Revit users are those who know the most efficient workflows in Revit and understand the software thoroughly. Revit does not have a learning curve as much as it has a zen that people don't always get. Every office needs a Revit zen master, or at least a couple of people heading down that road. AUGI can turn people into Revit zen masters... this is why you are here. <yoda> But help you must have... no one can work by himself... the others Revit zen masters must also become... </yoda>

Max Lloyd

2005-10-04, 01:06 PM

Sounds cool Wes. Maybe you're just appealing to my geeky side, but I too want to be a revit zen-master! 'Help me revit forums, you are my only hope.'

Jeffrey, just a quicky. I am intrigued about this exporting to a series of jpgs to create an avi. How do you do the export of all the jpg's in the first place though?

SCShell

2005-10-04, 01:43 PM

Hey there,

Interesting thread! I must had my thoughts.

I have to be one, if not THE luckiest Revit user on this forum! Seriously! Until Revit, I did EVERYTHING by hand. I loved hand drawing and I hated ACAD. (Yes, I was trained on CAD in the early 80's) This meant that I had nothing to "un-learn". Once I got used to the way Revit wanted to do things, I just went with it. Kinda flexible in that way I guess.

I must say, my work load, and quality of work, have gone up at an "un-measurable" rate. Also, after 2 years of using Revit, I don't go around saying that it is best or only way to work. I also know that the program is young and needs some improvements. But, it still kicks bu** over hand and 2D drafting! (Heck, I just got a call from a contractor who is laying out one of my latest projects. When he was done laying out the Site and 30k SF Building, there was only ONE 1/4" dimensional bust for the whole project! In addition, the Steel Contractor told me that this set of drawings was the best and most accurate set he had ever seen, after 35 years in the business. After doing all of his shop drawings, he didn't have to change a thing. And he deals in fractions of an inch!)

I could never imagine doing what I am doing now, the old way. (Nor, in ACAD!) I do think that this is the future and I want to be included!

Just my thoughts
Steve

J. Grouchy

2005-10-04, 02:07 PM

For some reason worksets are a real issue for us. One fundamental issue I believe we need to address is that work that you change can affect something someone else is working on without you realizing it until it is too late.
I've heard this complaint quite a bit and I agree it can be aggravating...but then, how is that any different from xrefs in AutoCAD? Doesn't that exact same issue come up when someone changes the base xreferenced file and the file you are using that links to it depends on a previously saved version? Is there actually a way to solve this issue aside from working on a project one at a time?

jamesd10181097

2005-10-04, 02:38 PM

jamesd10181097

2005-10-04, 02:42 PM

By the way Jeffery the exporting of the Jpg's crashed on me last night, just like the others after the first frame was completed. I think it is a problem with either my computer or corrption in the file, I am letting support deal with it.

hand471037

2005-10-04, 02:52 PM

Yes Grav8 it is somewhat similar to x-ref's in that regard the only huge difference is the items in an x-ref that are moved or changed only the x-ref is changed whereas in Revit walls may shift that cause any item loosly associated ith that wall (that you did not even intend to move) to shift you do not expect to and so on. I feel that it is much more impacting than modifications in an x-ref.

Maybe you just need to use the 'pin in place' tool more for critical items. If you pin the important stuff you don't have to worry about it shifting around when you make changes.

Or another technique that works well for controlling things is to put those critical items into a workset, and then check out that workset under a unique user name, like 'master'. You close the Project, go into the Revit Options, change your Workset Username to 'master', you re-open the Project, check out the critical worksets, then close the Project without letting go of them. Change your name back to your own, and now no one can edit those critical elements unless they first change their name to 'master' before opening the Project. This way you can minimize or elemenate a large part of the random edits that you're complaining about to the critical items in your Project.

One other thing that has really gotten to me, let me know if any of you know what this is. try to move a wall and sometimes it gives me an error that "ceiling sketch is invalid" and will not let me move the wall. It is at times like these that I get most upset with Revit. A seemingly simple task and an error pops up that has no further explaniation. The way I got around it is by editing the sketch of every ceiling in the whole project to eliminate any lines generated by the pick wall command and replacing them with lines.

Yeah, using the Pick Wall tool can cause errors later on, you have to use it knowing that. Otherwise you have to go back and do what you did. See, when you use the Pick Wall tool, it locks the line to that wall, so if you move that wall sometimes it can render the sketch of the floor/ceiling/roof that's connected to that wall invalid, and cause that error. I 90% of the time just draw, with lines, or use the pick with lines, to generate my sketches and I hardly ever have this problem.

Also, keep in mind, that you can expand the error, and it will tell you what the two elements are that are having trouble. It will give you their ID numbers too. If you note these down and then go to Tools->Element IDs->Select by ID you can enter them there and Revit will select and highlight them for you so you can figure out where the problem is...

The same thing happened with floors since we had different flooring materials in different rooms. That was 2 days of work to edit every floor and every ceiling in a 130,000 sf elementary school. Those are the days that I am ready to toss Revit.

Now, had you drawn those floors correctly in the first place you wouldn't have wasted those two days. You honestly can't tell me that you haven't had the exact same trouble with any other CAD software, where you did a bunch of work to undo something that was done the wrong way prior and ate up a stupid amount of time. It happens. Now you know not to do that.

Then the next day I will do something with scheduling or something like that and it reminds me that Revit is a powerful program. But I need to make it over this hump of runing into these qwerky little errors, because they always come at the worst time when I need to get something done quick. It also makes me look like a complete idiot in front of all the nay-sayers that I have been argueing for months with that this is the way to go.

OK, so learning Revit is kinda a vicious 'sine-wave'. You start out high, thinking 'wow look at what this can do!'. Then you hit your first trouble, and you're wondering 'wow is this the right tool?!?'. At first, these peaks and valleys are steep and tall. Over time, they smooth out, and you wind up generally feeling pretty good about the software, overall. Really. Or so says this RZM (Revit Zen Master).

hand471037

2005-10-04, 02:58 PM

I have to be one, if not THE luckiest Revit user on this forum! Seriously! Until Revit, I did EVERYTHING by hand. I loved hand drawing and I hated ACAD. (Yes, I was trained on CAD in the early 80's) This meant that I had nothing to "un-learn". Once I got used to the way Revit wanted to do things, I just went with it. Kinda flexible in that way I guess.

When I teach Revit to folks, I note that those that really know how a building goes together get it quickly, regardless of any prior CAD training. Those that don't know how a building goes together, or are out of practice in thinking that way, struggle, regardless of any prior CAD training.

What I see people run into with Revit isn't learning the tool, it's learning the workflow. It's so fundamentally different from AutoCAD and, heck, drafting, that those that haven't been thinking in 3D, about how the building is really going together, have a very hard time sometimes getting up to speed with Revit...

SC, I've taught a couple of folks like you: done lots of hand-drafting (where you have to think about the whole building), but no CAD. They all seem to get it really quickly. It's the ones with years of CAD or 3D experance, but whom haven't been thinking about the whole building, just thinking more about lines, solids, tool pallets, x-refs, layers, ect... they are the ones that seem to struggle the most at first IMHO.

hand471037

2005-10-04, 03:04 PM

Jeffrey, just a quicky. I am intrigued about this exporting to a series of jpgs to create an avi. How do you do the export of all the jpg's in the first place though?

Go to Export -> Export AVI

When the window opens, set your options & save location, and last thing, set the 'save as type' under the filename slot to JPEG. If you don't do this last, sometimes Revit will set it back to AVI by default, so do this last so you don't screw up (I did that a lot until I figure out that bug/behavor). Then hit Save and Revit should start throwing off single frames of the animation to wherever you pointed it to...

hmm... If Revit Zen Master I be, must I learn to post like Yoda, yes? Hmmmm? Ahahaha...

gflinn

2005-10-04, 06:12 PM

When I teach Revit to folks, I note that those that really know how a building goes together get it quickly, regardless of any prior CAD training. Those that don't know how a building goes together, or are out of practice in thinking that way, struggle, regardless of any prior CAD training.

What I see people run into with Revit isn't learning the tool, it's learning the workflow. It's so fundamentally different from AutoCAD and, heck, drafting, that those that haven't been thinking in 3D, about how the building is really going together, have a very hard time sometimes getting up to speed with Revit...
We started using Revit in February, after being trained in ADT in the middle of January and then trained in Revit 2 weeks later. I've got one person complain about Revit every chance she gets about not doing things right and hard to admit to any positives for the software. She didn't want to even learn ADT (didn't/doesn't want to learn anything new). I've notice since shes been here is her lack of construction knowledge/sense.

I've had a few annoyance here and their, but I expect that it won't work right every time I add/make changes. I learn from these issues before they come up again. It all comes down to "DRAW SMARTLY" not just draw.

there's no such thing as problems only opportunities

DanielleAnderson

2005-10-04, 06:35 PM

The happiest Revit users are those who know the most efficient workflows in Revit and understand the software thoroughly. Revit does not have a learning curve as much as it has a zen that people don't always get. Every office needs a Revit zen master, or at least a couple of people heading down that road. AUGI can turn people into Revit zen masters... this is why you are here. <yoda> But help you must have... no one can work by himself... the others Revit zen masters must also become... </yoda>

Perhaps I am geekifying myself here but I want a Revit zen-master t-shirt. ;) "try not, do or do not, there is no try."

Scott D Davis

2005-10-04, 06:50 PM

"You seek Yoda. Know him I do."

JamesVan

2005-10-04, 08:15 PM

...Revit does not have a learning curve as much as it has a zen that people don't always get. Every office needs a Revit zen master, or at least a couple of people heading down that road. AUGI can turn people into Revit zen masters... this is why you are here. <yoda> But help you must have... no one can work by himself... the others Revit zen masters must also become... </yoda>
Every time I teach a new group of brand new Revit users in house, you can immediately see those who get it and those that don't. I heartily agree with the statement that it's mostly fear of change you're dealing with in this situation and these changing times in our industry.

The ones that 'get it' don't usually repeatedly ask how to get to an object's properties or how to modify the visibility of a category. Those that 'get it' will start to model wicked geometry and create custom parameters while I'm helping the others find File-Save. This might sound a little harsh, but it is so clear in every class.

BillyGrey

2005-10-04, 11:55 PM

Over time, I have repeatedly defended this program, and have heaped laurels upon it whenever the chance has arisen. I still do. I will never go back to 2d CAD, and have grown, and will continue to grow with Revit.

I have to admit though that I perceived the original poster of this thread was voicing his concern over issues with the program that have lingered. I do not think it is fair to take a discussion framed in a certain context, then just "turn it around" in defense of something that would be better served via fair critiques of it's shortcomings. I am not impugning any one individual, or mean mouthing, but I cannot help but feel that when someone voices concern over the program, that the ensuing topic should not get buried in a heap of positive talk about what a great proggie it is (which it is), or it is somehow the fault of the user...

If not fairly discussed, how will these issues see the light of day? And I am not speaking of the issues that will quickly be rebuffed by those who will suggest we should submit a report, or be specific or we can't help you, I am talking about real, lingering issues, that have been aired time and again, yet never see resolution.

So I will be the spoiler this time, and because it really has been bothering me lately, I will state clearly that once again, I would love to see some time spent by the developers in polishing this fine program, in terms of issues that have been aired time and again, but glossed over in the rush to press on with feature set development, or whatever drives the logic.

Please, lets talk fairly regarding both sides of the Revit coin, only that way can we urge and assist in the secured future success of this fine proggie.

Roger Evans

2005-10-05, 12:07 AM

Very nicely put there BillyGrey I can agree with everything you said

It is time for positive criticism (ne recommendation)

Every suggestion for improvement serves our own ends in getting a program that is useful & friendly for us to use

J. Grouchy

2005-10-05, 12:36 AM

So I will be the spoiler this time, and because it really has been bothering me lately, I will state clearly that once again, I would love to see some time spent by the developers in polishing this fine program, in terms of issues that have been aired time and again, but glossed over in the rush to press on with feature set development, or whatever drives the logic.
That's just it...I don't think the powers-that-be can afford to rest on their laurels. Yes, they have a fine program...but I think they all continue to look at it as if it is "a fine start". Nobody has claimed that Revit is the be-all, end-all...the CAD killer and the savior of all Architectural production software. I think we and the developers and the marketers and the critics and the retailers all just see in it the potential to be the leader in the BIM market which, at this time, is rather limited for the average firm. I think what we are seeing through the small point releases and the very carefully timed major releases is the implementation of a broad vision...one that will unfold over years. Perhaps I give Autodesk too much credit and foresight...but I have to acknowledge the fact that they are the leader in most CAD software markets and have become this because of careful planning and wise growth. They surely didn't buy Revit willy-nilly because it was a cool little architectural modelling package. I like to think they saw in it the potential to become the standard and the model for what the next generation of architects will need to meet the needs of the day.

mmodernc

2005-10-05, 01:09 AM

The program works in general, so fix the existing bugs before adding any new ones.
It is the same story with most 3D programs I have looked at. The automation that works may save you 50% time over manual/2D cad but the bits that don't work can add 100%.
Difference with Revit is that within time the "bugs" and "omissions" that are "holding it back" will be swatted and the technological advantage over other stuff will be fully realized. Current "wishlist" items are a MUST list. The success of the Spitfire was a combination of brilliant design and concept drawn from years of experience with racing prototypes PLUS operational experience from the poor fellas being shot down and shooting down.

iru69

2005-10-05, 05:13 AM

Just can't resist an editorial on the continual complaints and difficulties people are having with Revit that I read in this forum.
I just could resist either :)

Subscription price...

You really need to ask the bean counters that one. Subscription costs are only what Autodesk thinks the market will bear. Autodesk would charge $8,000 a seat if they thought they could sell enough of them. They know they can get away with a lot with their existing customers, because it's a lot harder to switch CAD software than it is to switch word processors. And with AutoCAD being an industry standard, they could get away with a lot because many firms needed to use AutoCAD whether they liked it or not. I think Autodesk is having a harder time with Revit because they don't know how to sell software... AutoCAD (and its offspring) sold itself. The only thing that keeps this in check (to some extent) is competition - it's in all of our best interests that ArchiCAD sticks around.

While a number of companies, including Microsoft, are making moves toward a subscription model, it's been imperative that Autodesk do so. Microsoft can wait out the customers who are still using Office 97 - every company in the world with a computer needs a word processor.

Autodesk doesn't have that luxury - CAD is a niche market. And if CAD is a niche market, Architectural/Building software like Revit is a micro-niche market. As an application matures, there's less incentive to upgrade to features you don't need. Autodesk simply can't afford to have people sit on AutoCAD 2000 or Revit 6.1 while they're paying people to keep the machinery going. So, Autodesk turned to the forced migration every few years... and the subscription is just an evolution of that. But it doesn't have any connection to how much work anyone's actually doing. It's pointless to think of it in those terms.

Development pace...

Microsoft has billions of dollars in cash, and hire many of the best software engineers in the world - yet Windows Vista (Longhorn) is years behind schedule. So, as frustrating as it is that Revit development isn't faster, it's not without precedent.

You can't just throw more people at Revit and expect development to be faster. Software development teams can only get so big before they simply become inefficient. And while I have no idea what the size of Revit's core development team is, I understand that for a similar application, maybe two dozen or so max... and they simply can't add any more (and by core, I mean code, not support). We can only hope that as software becomes more modularized, a large number of Revit teams will be able to work on various parts of the software without tripping over each other. But currently, this is still a fundamental problem in software development.

Now, could Autodesk hire a bunch of college students to create hundreds of cool and useful families? Yes. Could they hire someone to write documentation that anyone of us who isn't a CAD technician would care to read? Yes. How about video tutorials? Yes. These things, I can't make up an excuse for... except companies the size of Autodesk can't do anything spontaneous, so it would lead to all sorts of arrangements getting such people on board, and that would take someone else's attention away from doing something "important".

What are we paying for...

I'm just old enough to have drafted by hand interning summers through college. There are some things I still miss about it. But I'd never want to go back to it. When we needed a structural plan... I re-traced the floor plan. When we needed an electrical plan... I re-traced the floor plan. When we moved a wall... I made the same change on three different plans. And we can all share our favorites, I'm sure.

So as much as people deride AutoCAD, and as much as architects complained about how the drawings didn't look as good as in the old days... it seemed pretty obvious to me that you either got with the program... or retired. You can still argue whether in the end anything got done faster with CAD, but take a look at a set of building plans from fifty years ago... we're not competing against that anymore. Expectations for building documentation had outgrown the ability to draw by hand.

We're going through it again. You might be able to hold out with AutoCAD or the like for a few more years, but it doesn't matter how fast you can draw, sooner or later the expectations will outstrip AutoCAD's capabilities. Clients not only expect a few perspective sketches, they expect to be able to virtually walk through the building. A few years ago, clients were delighted at the prospects of seeing there building as a computer model. Now we get clients who don't even look surprised. And we can all share our favorites, I'm sure.

No one can say for sure if Revit's the "one"... but I haven't seen anything better yet. And I'm not going back to Autocad. Revit... or retire.

zenomail105021

2005-10-05, 02:29 PM

Well said BillyGrey. A man after my own heart. This program does have the potential to be a real fine work of art and it should be. The potential is there like no other program I have used. I would love to see it and am willing to pay for it. Honestly, from where I sit, however, I am afraid that the developers cannot or will not grasp this concept. If they do it could make all the difference.

If the developers will not add the conveniences and ease of application on top of the BIM concept it will not go in that direction. Its like a building without the ornament (the sizzle), the levels of scale, a la Chistopher Alexander (just finished Book 3 and moving on to Book 4 in his recent and marvelous architectural quartet "The Nature Of Order").

I truly hope Revit will not end up a might have been.

And by the way, sizzle sells.

Bill Maddox

Simon.Whitbread

2005-10-05, 10:36 PM

...I am having trouble getting a team of 4 to get work done. ... I would go insane trying to implement 40 seats. ....

I missed the start of this thread, but anyway, heres my 2c...

The company I work for (one of the largest Architects in NZ) is in the process of implementing Revit from Autocad LT. I happen to be its main driver. Since February we have had 50+ people (Directors, Architects, Grads, Technicians) through a 3 day professional training course and I am providing additional training in-house. We have a further 40+ to go over the next 6months.
Although not everyone who has been trained is using Revit, the majority of new jobs are being started with it.

Problems - not that many, and most of them are of the ilk 'can't remember what I did at training' or 'my shortcut keys aren't quite the same'. Most people take to it quickly, some need a bit of coaxing.

Although Revit does have some issues, I would definitely recommend it. For the design and documentation process, it far outstrips its competitors - I know, we went through an exhaustive - long - tiring - tedious selection process. We documented the same commercial building 4 times (well 3 actually - the first one didn't really get past installation of the software). Even though we have Revit Series, I think if I had to go back to Autocad to document projects I'd rather take up road sweeping.

I've always loved what I do - Revit makes it easier

2005-10-05, 11:04 PM

Look for Waltham in autodesk.com/jobs and make your own (hopefully positive :) ) conclusions.

beegee

2005-10-05, 11:31 PM

Huh ?

57677-Executive Assistant BSD Sales ?

Look for Waltham in autodesk.com/jobs and make your own (hopefully positive :) ) conclusions.

DanielleAnderson

2005-10-06, 12:22 AM

http://autodesk.recruitmax.com/ENG/candidates/default.cfm?szCategory=JobList&szFormat=search

There are a lot of Revit jobs available... interesting...

phyllisr

2005-10-06, 12:23 AM

As this discussion has moved forward and generated so much response, I thought I might add my own 2 cents. My opinions at the moment are based on early Revit pilot project experience, considerable skill and experience with other Autodesk products (vanilla AutoCAD and ADT), and very limited exposure to Microstation. Our firm also owns licenses for SketchUp that we use successfully and we have a visualization department using Autodesk 3ds Max. We are a subscription user.

I would ask what we consider "easier" and challenge whether we are asking a program to take an idea from our heads and turn it into a 3D model. Is this even realistic? This is the stuff of science fiction (Marge Piercy's prize-winning He, She and It is a good example). How user-friendly can any program be? Perhaps the program seems complicated and challenging because we are expecting it to think? Because we can envision a coping detail and see the image in our minds, does that make it easy to build? Is the challenge of modeling something correctly not part of insuring it can be built correctly? The joy in Revit is knowing you cannot "cheat" and are forced to think about that detail and how it might look at every bump and corner. Drawing linework and saying TYP is no longer enough - the model will not lie and we are forced to be certain it can actually be built. Is this not an architectural responsibility? Brunelleschi did not draw one section through the dome, say TYP and leave it to the guy in the field.

We are in an evaluation phase currently and were quite deliberate before we purchased a single Revit license determining exactly what we were evaluating and why. After defining a few basic concepts, listed below, it allowed me to focus on what our firm wanted to accomplish, looking at the trees and the forest in a logical way.

First, discussions about 2D are not relevant. Whether we look at a drawing in 2D or 3D, never forget that AutoCAD has been a 3D environment for a very long time, before BIM was gleam in anyone's eye. Like it or not, every drawing we create has a height whether we use it or not.

Second, buildings are not now and never were created from lines and arcs and circles. Once the first program arrived that allowed us to think about the X, Y and Z location in a design, the writing was on the wall. Like it or not, CAD will never be an expensive pencil again.

Third, no program is perfect and it never will be. Every program has its problems, even vanilla AutoCAD. I am painfully aware of the limitations in every product and the challenges we all face. I support users every day and face their frustrations at all levels. What we get for the money will always be a compromise.

If I kept remembering those three points, a lot of chaff fell away from the wheat. We were able to focus on evaluating the best of things available. My pilot team completed the Getting Started tutorial and had two days of canned vendor training. That is all I had as well. So far, in Revit, there has been nothing we have tried to do that we cannot. Our list of Oliver Twist "Please, sir, I want some more" things is pretty long but only because what it already does is so spectacular. I could not buy the enthusiasm and excitement this is bringing to our younger staff - without the preconceived prejudice about how we did things in the past (early CAD or ink on linen), they see the possibility not the problem.

With one real project in Revit barely a hole in the ground and two internal tests in various stages of completion and a very inexperienced team, we have been able to do more than I ever hoped. I have not made a final decision about my recommendation to the Operations group and there are many, many more issues than what I like and do not like about Revit. My lists of challenges will never disappear entirely no matter what I recommend.

I just want the list short so I can take longer vacations and have more fun.

PBR