Residential Tips

[kyeric]

Hello all,

I am at a small custom residential firm and I am currently trying to learn Revit/unlearn AutoCAD. I have completed the tutorials, I am a subscriber to dgcad.com, I have bought Residential Design Using Autodesk Revit Building 8 and still I find myself scratching my head at the shear vastness of the Revit landscape. This thread is an attempt to help start a conversation of residential designers and architects who implement Revit in their practice and to see what they have found to be the best way of using this amazing software...

1. I have found it extremely difficult for me to understand how to do dormers. I have read the tutorials, but what would be the best way to create some types of dormer conditions (i.e. where the roof is cut)? It seems like when I edit the roof, and cut around the dormer roof, it will not allow me to make an opening? I know this is something I am overlooking, so excuse the dumb questions.

2. Trim. Does everyone model their trim as a host sweep, or is is just easier to represent it in the elevation view with detail lines locked onto the model itself? Please see attached jpg. This was a quick SketchUp model, that I did to show a soffit, gutter and wall condition.

3. Fireplaces, chimneys. Again, just a basic family with applied brick or stucco sweeps? Or is is just faster to do it as in in place family?

4. What is the best way to make walls, floors and roofs? Loaded question, I know, but is it better to draw your first floor walls in, go to the second floor, draw the second floor walls in, and THEN put the floor in? Or does anyone find it easier to just draw it like they build it?

I also wonder what would be a good reference to learn the Family Editor a little more in depth. The help files have still left me a little baffled.

Again, I apologize to all of the old timers who have read questions like these for years and get indigestion, but I look forward to compiling a process of others people's experience with Revit in residential design to help not only myself, but hopefully many other beginners.

Thank you,
Eric

[JTF]

I have used Revit for about 3 years and 90% is for single family residential homes, I have got a template set up which takes me about 16 to 20 hours to complete a new set of drawings for an averaged 2000sf home. I model just about everthing except for some plan items (ie.. sink, stove, cabinets) other then that I model and create everything else.

For question number one I find it easiest to just sketch non-sloped rectangles for dormer openings. (see images roof1 and roof2)

For question 2. Under the Modelling tab I just create a solid sweep with what ever profile you need set at a pre-defined level (ie. u/s of soffit) assign a material and away you go.

No. 3. I don't do many masonry fireplaces but when I have had to modelling in-place seems best for me.

No. 4. I have started to use stacked walls, works very well for single residential homes. Set-up all your levels first (ie. T.O. FOOTING, T.O. FOUNDATION, MAIN FLOOR, SECOND FLOOR, U/S OF TRUSS etc..) then place walls using level constraints. Then place floors at proper levels, this works great as an option will ask if you want to cut out walls where floors are.

As for the family editor, it took Some time getting used to it but with the new on the fly family editor it made it much better.
In the beginning I found that a lot of the families used to many symbolic lines and constraints.
I found it much easier to just take an existing family (ie. Door) strip away unnecessary symbolic lines and adjust the visibility properties so that the door showed cut or showed in elevation, the only symbolic lines I would use was for plan and elevation swings. When you achieve the way you wanted the door to work save it to your own family folder and start to make you own standard families.

Hope this starts to help a little.

[blads]

G'day Eric

as i self-employed building designer who lovers Revit I'll attempt to help with some answers...

1. cant help here much as I haven't had the need to crete dormers... however there is an ATP Training Program (http://www.augi.com/education/schedule.asp)at AUGI and there is one starting very shorlt on roofs, dormers, etc

2. Either works...for the trim under the gutter I'd use an inplace family

3. Fireplace - again either works. I f I knew I was going use this continually... suggest creating a new family with all the trimmings attached...

4. Over here we tend to draw it like it is built

5. Training. Better source of learning the family editor IMHO.

HTH

[andreolivier]

Am converting from MicroStation to Revit, any suggestions on a decent manual?

[ita]

If you want to get up to speed quickly - get into a good accellerated training course (or work with a local mentor). Otherwise, use the Revit Help, Revit Tutorials, this site and Jim Balding's book.

[kpaxton]

Again, I apologize to all of the old timers who have read questions like these for years and get indigestion, but I look forward to compiling a process of others people's experience with Revit in residential design to help not only myself, but hopefully many other beginners.

Thank you,
Eric WOW - Old Timers? Does my age show THAT much ?? :shock:

Eric - Seriously, Let me be the first to Welcome you Aboard the Revit Train!! For residential design, it's my feeling that Revit can help you produce great drawings in a short amount of time. You've hit the nail upon the head, however, that training means the difference between night and day with this program. Yes, you can learn this on your own - many have and have done well. We brought in an outside trainer and my knowledge with the program went from 30% to 90% in four days - which made a big difference in our productivity.

Learning Revit, while daunting, is a very rewarding process. As Wes (on the board) has said, it's made creating architecture fun again. Once you learn the proper way of building things within the program -you'll fly. Beware the pitfalls also - as there are perhaps 3 different ways to make something, there 5 ways to screw it up. But don't worry because the people on this board and others are here to help when that happens!

OK, onto your questions:

1. See JTF's response. An important thing to remember when cutting anything in Revit is that it's just as important where you cut, as what you cut. Sometimes having that line just miss the face of a wall will give you the "I can't do that" errors...

2. Yes. Some will argue with me - but I just LOVE the sweep commands, etc. etc. Creating independent profiles that I can use over and over or swap out on a moments notice is a godsend. I've included a picture that describes how I would create in Revit the very thing you sketched. (If I had time today, I would have actually modeled it.)

3. Fireplaces/Chimneys - I guess that depends on how involved you want to be and how much detailing you want. However, I suggest you look at it as you would in the field. How are you going to build it? I typically use the wall commands to create the "box out", whether it's frame for an insert, or a masonry wall for a true wood-burning unit. As for detailing outside (with brick, etc), that again depends on the intricacies you're looking for. Yes, I would use sweeps made for brick soldier courses, stone caps, trim, etc. if needed. As for the insert itself, if like a Majestic gas burning FP or similar, I would tend to create a generic model family, then insert that into my main model's walls I've already made.

4. Hmmmm. Although we all tend to preach "Build it as you would in the field", there are some intricacies of the program that you need to look out for. For example, in our training, we were taught that the floors and the roofs were one of the last things we create. This is because of some of the "fun" interactions floors have with walls and other items within the file. If you create the floor, then have to start moving walls, etc. you may have some annoying errors pop up from time to time. These won't be harmful, but time consuming and as I said.. annoying. This can be avoided by doing it last. I create the first floor (walls, doors, windows, toilets...) then move to the second or third. Once these are in place, then I create the floors. Then I create the floors to represent the tile or wood flooring portions, then I create the roof and move to the outside detailing.

I'm not really sure about a book or training on the Family Editor, so I will leave that up to the others to respond. However, I would suggest that you go into some of the files provided with Revit and de-engineer and look at how they're created. I do agree that this is a VERY important aspect of the program. Once you learn the Family Editor well - then you can pretty much build anything. The other important aspect of the program is using the Drafting Views and Detail Components - these will help you in creating details fast and efficiently.

I hope this has helped in some way. Keep searching the Forums for your answers, and if you can't find something - make a post and we'll be happy to assist. One of us is bound to have had something happen in the past!!

Good luck and Happy Reviting!

[Scott D Davis]

For dormer openings, have you tried the Opening tool from the Design Bar? There is a choice once you initiate the command to cut dormer openings by selecting the dormer roof.

[kyeric]

Great responses! All right, you guys have got me fired up again! It seems like the Revit Newbies go through stages of waxing and waning of learning because of not knowing how to complete a small task, and then with the help of all the great people here the program becomes fun again. I understand thats how most people feel, even the Old Timers! (sorry Kyle, not a knock against your time here on earth, I just have Revit Knowledge Envy).

OK, I am starting to understand the basis for how to go about solving my problems. The roof/dormer/wall seems to be a sticky point with me, though. The solutions you guys have given me has helped a lot, but I think that actual practice will make perfect.

Scott, thanks for pointing that out, and yes, I have looked into the dormer opening tool which may have answered this next set of questions. You must have Revit ESP...what a gift!

Continuing on....

I have just created a small example model to show some problems that I have been having with roof/wall connections.

1. Dormer walls. Can a wall connect to 2 different roofs or must you create 2 different walls? I mean, I like Batman and all, but my dormers are looking slightly funny. Is this because I have not cut an opening for my roof?

2. Attic walls. Why, oh why does this wall fly through the other side of the roof, even though I have attached its top to the roof above? It seems like when I modify it and slide it back past the ridge beam, it is fine, but when this roof slides past that vertex, it levels off to its original constrained height. Hmmm.

Thanks again for the advice, you guys are the best resource for spreading this software to the mainstream. I am just glad to finally be on board "the Revit Train", even though I feel my mind has been left at the station!

-e

[Scott D Davis]

For item 1, yes walls can connect to two roofs. Just highlight the wall poking through, hit the Attach button in the Options Bar, then select the upper roof.

If this does not work, sometimes it has to do with the height of the wall in Properties. You might need to do a "detach" of the wall to detach it from all roofs, then set the height of the wall to be taller than both the dormer and main roof, then reattach the walls to the roof.

If you have more problems, I may have you post your file, so I can take a look...

[kpaxton]

1. Dormer walls. Can a wall connect to 2 different roofs or must you create 2 different walls? I mean, I like Batman and all, but my dormers are looking slightly funny. Is this because I have not cut an opening for my roof?

2. Attic walls. Why, oh why does this wall fly through the other side of the roof, even though I have attached its top to the roof above? It seems like when I modify it and slide it back past the ridge beam, it is fine, but when this roof slides past that vertex, it levels off to its original constrained height. Hmmm.
Eric,
Let me see if I can shed some light on this matter a bit.

1. As to your first picture - Yes, Walls can connect to 2 different roofs. I've had this occur on many occasions. You'll just have to go through 2 attachment phases... I'm assuming this is the same walls used for your dormer? Technically, it would be better to use 2 different sets of walls - one for the upper (or exterior) dormer walls, the other one for the lower (interior) attic walls, then align them.

The second, right hand picture, I've had happen to me on a number of occasions. This is due to the fact of the handle of the wall just being to the outside of the roof 'envelope', and it's not 'catching' the wall to crop it. This happens alot with the tight corners like these - I assume it's a mathematical problem causing a by-pass of the function. I can't see in this picture, but I'm assuming that this wall you're extending is a separate wall (from the one below). If it is, then in 3D view, zoom into the left corner. Undo your attachment to roof first, then grab the blue grip of that wall, and drag it back a little bit. Then try attaching it up. This will usually fix the problem. The end-all solution to this, if this doesn't work, is to make your wall taller than your peak, then edit the walls profile to match the underside your roof (but this is a latch ditch effort.)

2. Yes, another odd behavior. I'm not sure as to WHY this is happening, but let me offer a suggestion. I notice you're letting your "first floor" wall on the right side extend all the way up and connect with the roof, but on the left side you've got a short wall from the second floor extending up, but past the ridge point. My thought is this - keep the one wall on the right only going up to the bearing point. Create a new wall on top of this, running from one side to the other. Now attach this wall to the roof. This should clean up your construction.

Hope this helps!

The old timer, ;)
Kyle

[kyeric]

Scott, Kyle,

You guys nailed it. The wall/roof attachment in the example seems to be affected by the upper wall sitting on top of the lower wall. This means that when I moved the upper wall in to meet up with the interior face on both sides, the upper wall attached fully to the roof. When the wall was moved to anywhere to sit on top of the lower wall it took off to its original constraints on the opposite side!

The dormer problem is something I have to work on later, but thanks for the advice. I didn't save my example model, so I will try later tonight to recreate what you guys are talking about!


PS- Scott, I tried posting a question on the SketchUp website today regarding a rumor of a Revit plug-in. The post was taken off a few hours later. Hmmmm. Do you know something about the collaboration of Autodesk and @last? Assimilation would be sweet to improve Revit, no? (massing, animation, display props..ect...)


Thanks again...More questions to come.....

-e

[iru69]

All right, you guys have got me fired up again! It seems like the Revit Newbies go through stages of waxing and waning of learning because of not knowing how to complete a small task, and then with the help of all the great people here the program becomes fun again.
You've seen the Six Phases of a Revit User (http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=3335), right?

[kyeric]

I think I am stuck somewhere in Stage 2. If I get to Stage 3 I am going to break out my college grad gear and play "Pomp and Circumstance"....

[knurrebusk]

Problems will occur, but the raise in productivity will smooth the pain :)
I´m getting more relaxed, realizing that I can´t control/create everything in Revit style all the time.

We hired another employee instead, and will try to work around the problems.
Getting into/back to Autocad again is just to painful (even for the new hired person).

I´ll still attend the demo of Civil 3D for my site problems though!

[dsw98]

Has anyone got their plans ready to send out to an engineer yet? I'm trying to figure out how to do this.

[Rols]

I think I am stuck somewhere in Stage 2. If I get to Stage 3 I am going to break out my college grad gear and play "Pomp and Circumstance"....

Oh, young grasshopper! The path to Revit enlightenment is not a straight one.
You will have days on Stage 2, and you will have days on Stage 6. Just remember that the journey is never done. If you should master Revit 8.1, the next version is right around the bend!

[narlee]

Jim Balding's Book? Haven't seen it and couldn't find it on Amazon.com

[narlee]

I've had Revit for 2-3 years and do mostly Residential. I'm what I would call a "stick-builder" Revit person. I grow weary of the bugs in the automatic portions of the program and since my projects don't involve a lot of repetitive items and I don't like to memorize procedures and the latest bugs and workarounds, I try to stay away from most of it. But, I'm rethinking some of that and considering re-learning some of the automatic stuff for schematics, then canning the schematic stuff & re-creating for docs. That sounds radical, but much as I love Revit, I wish they would just fix what they have and not add features for a couple of years. I can see the frustration even in Revit advocates like Aaron Rumple, who will comment about how something "used" to work right. Elevations functions that were never completed, wall joins that are having more trouble than ever...sometimes, I think there's too much of a rush to add spiffy features. Of course, all I need to do is look at a review of ADT ("great product...plan on substantial training investment) to bring me back to reality and love Revit for what it is.